[Deck] Turbo Depths

[DNSolver]

Interesting RG list Quentin.

Instead of Pyroclasm in the sideboard, why not play Kozilek's Return to be better vs Death and Taxes? Prelate on 2 shuts off PFire and KReturn is colorless so Mother of Runes cannot stop it. Could be too expensive on the mana I guess, but Prelate on 2 seems like a real concern.

[solnox]

I feel like you want some number of REB or Pyroblasts in your Sideboard. Without black for discard, I feel you cant fight through countermagic as easily

[jdmdave]

Ground Seal has been incredible. There is absolutely nothing I would change about my list except for 2 verdants, 2 basics over the poverty land package.

After 62 comp. league matches, I'm running a 64.5% game win rate & 73.8% match win rate. Only 1 2-3, 0 1-4/0-5, and a ton of 4-1s.

Common Matchup Comp. League Results

* 4c control 3-0
* DNT 3-1 (Safekeeper MVP)
* Elves 3-1
* Burn 4-0
* Grixis/BUG/RUG Delver 11-0
* Miracles 3-1
* Reanimator 3-2 (pretty bad draws in those losses)
* Sneak and Show 0-3 (gross)
* Storm (TES/ANT) 4-3

[solnox]

im assuming you want ground seal vs Czech, Reanimator, Lands?

[jdmdave]

Yes, as well as BUG Delver. Grixis I'm undecided, but shutting off DRS is huge.

[Quentin Coldman]

Interesting RG list Quentin.

Instead of Pyroclasm in the sideboard, why not play Kozilek's Return to be better vs Death and Taxes? Prelate on 2 shuts off PFire and KReturn is colorless so Mother of Runes cannot stop it. Could be too expensive on the mana I guess, but Prelate on 2 seems like a real concern.

Yes this is exactly what I thought after I list one game against D&T with a Pyroclasm in hand while he had a Prelate on 2. I'll try a split next time. Instantspeed is also nice to kill ur Magus eot.

@solnox: Blasts could be good, but u already have a good matchup vs blue decks like Delver, Czech Pile, BUG etc. The only deck I really want Blasts against is Show and Tell. The matchup seems pretty poor. But obv it is a big pro for red to have the oppurtinity to play Blasts, but me personally don't see the need to play them at the moment.

[caseyc]

Ground Seal has been incredible. There is absolutely nothing I would change about my list except for 2 verdants, 2 basics over the poverty land package.

After 62 comp. league matches, I'm running a 64.5% game win rate & 73.8% match win rate. Only 1 2-3, 0 1-4/0-5, and a ton of 4-1s.

Common Matchup Comp. League Results

* 4c control 3-0
* DNT 3-1 (Safekeeper MVP)
* Elves 3-1
* Burn 4-0
* Grixis/BUG/RUG Delver 11-0
* Miracles 3-1
* Reanimator 3-2 (pretty bad draws in those losses)
* Sneak and Show 0-3 (gross)
* Storm (TES/ANT) 4-3

Ground Seal is the bee's knees. I do bring it in against Grixis, as getting edicted isn't truly terrible unless they follow up with Surgical--also stops DRS which can make their game plan pretty anemic.

[Darkgobs]

Hey guys, I was just thinking:

When 2 cards are in competition for a slot in the sideboard, it seems logical to choose which one to keep based directly on which is the card you side in the more often, right?

So let's consider against which decks we want to bring in:

- Mishra's Factory --> Grixis, 4c Czech Pile, BUG Delver (= decks with edict-effect)
- Karakas --> S&T, Reanimator, Land, Mirror

Now, it seems to me that Mishra's Factory and Karakas are, althought being useful cards, statistically less susceptible to be brought in than for example the following contenders (especially Mishra's Factory):

- the 3rd Sylvan Library --> control decks, D&T, Storm.decks, S&T (?), Reanimator (?), Hymn to Tourach decks (?)
- the 4rd removal --> almost every deck with annoying creatures and/or permanent-based hate (D&T, Grixis, Blade Control, Czech etc?)
- 1-2 Ground Seal --> Reanimator, Land, BUG Delver, Czech Pile, Grixis
- X?

So isn't Mishra's Factory (and to some lesser extend Karakas?) in the sideboard underoptimized choice(s) compare to, for instance, the 3rd Sylvan Library?

And could the same reasoning be relevant for Ground Seal vs. the 2nd Surgical Extraction? Overall, playing 2 Ground Seal alongside only 1 Surgical could be better than 2 Surgical + 1 Seal?

- Surgical Extraction --> Reanimator, Land, Dredge, Storm.decks
- see above for Ground Seal


For me, the sideboard choices look like this (in bold what I am considering atm):

1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1-2 Sylvan Library (1 Maindeck)
3-4 removals (3-4 Abrupt Decay // 2-3 Decay + 1 Krosan Grip)
1-2 Ground Seal
1-2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Mishra's Factory
0-1 Karakas
0-1 X?

...still not sure about cutting 1 Decay for a KGrip. Seems, precisely, to be an unoptimized choice (Decay comes in more often than K-Grip, even if Kgrip is superior in some matchups, like S&T).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?
It could be me beeing way too enthusiastic and/or not considering something vital (it wouldn't be the first time!), but I feel like this could lead to an interesting discussion.

[caseyc]

Hey guys, I was just thinking:

When 2 cards are in competition for a slot in the sideboard, it seems logical to choose which one to keep based directly on which is the card you side in the more often, right?

So let's consider against which decks we want to bring in:

- Mishra's Factory --> Grixis, 4c Czech Pile, BUG Delver (= decks with edict-effect)
- Karakas --> S&T, Reanimator, Land, Mirror

Now, it seems to me that Mishra's Factory and Karakas are, althought being useful cards, statistically less susceptible to be brought in than for example the following contenders (especially Mishra's Factory):

- the 3rd Sylvan Library --> control decks, D&T, Storm.decks, S&T (?), Reanimator (?), Hymn to Tourach decks (?)
- the 4rd removal --> almost every deck with annoying creatures and/or permanent-based hate (D&T, Grixis, Blade Control, Czech etc?)
- 1-2 Ground Seal --> Reanimator, Land, BUG Delver, Czech Pile, Grixis
- X?

So isn't Mishra's Factory (and to some lesser extend Karakas?) in the sideboard underoptimized choice(s) compare to, for instance, the 3rd Sylvan Library?

And could the same reasoning be relevant for Ground Seal vs. the 2nd Surgical Extraction? Overall, playing 2 Ground Seal alongside only 1 Surgical could be better than 2 Surgical + 1 Seal?

- Surgical Extraction --> Reanimator, Land, Dredge, Storm.decks
- see above for Ground Seal


For me, the sideboard choices look like this (in bold what I am considering atm):

1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1-2 Sylvan Library (1 Maindeck)
3-4 removals (3-4 Abrupt Decay // 2-3 Decay + 1 Krosan Grip)
1-2 Ground Seal
1-2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Mishra's Factory
0-1 Karakas
0-1 X?

...still not sure about cutting 1 Decay for a KGrip. Seems, precisely, to be an unoptimized choice (Decay comes in more often than K-Grip, even if Kgrip is superior in some matchups, like S&T).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?
It could be me beeing way too enthusiastic and/or not considering something vital (it wouldn't be the first time!), but I feel like this could lead to an interesting discussion.

Thanks for this discussion starter--super interesting topic. There are multiple factors that determine SB slots. One is what you mentioned: how often the cards get used. Another is How impactful is the card? Also, how much energy should I put into this matchup? (I.e. is this matchup very positive and I don't need much of a SB for it? Or is it so bad that I am not going to bother trying to SB heavily for it? Or is it a 50/50 matchup that devoting a couple extra slots to could swing significantly in your favor?). Also, how often do I see this matchup? (A good example is the SBs I see with 4x Sphere of Resistance. In paper, I rarely see Storm--so I am running 1x Sphere that I may actually cut. However, folks who play online run into a lot more Storm, which would justify the 4x Spheres). Lastly, how many bad cards do I have in my maindeck to take out for this matchup? (For example, I could have 8 SB cards for Delver--but I don't have hardly any bad MD cards, so it wouldn't be a very effective use of SB slots.) I really enjoyed the Brainstorm show podcast on Sideboarding, provided a helpful framework for thinking about it.

In how I approach my SB, there are only a few matchups to which I devote more than a few cards. DnT, Lands, and Miracles each get about 10 cards sided in. Whereas, Delver gets 3-4 cards sided in.

I also love SB cards that have utility in lots of matchups (Abrupt Decay, Ground Seal). Or, are bombs in certain matchups--but also have utility in others (for example, Grafdigger's Cage is a huge game-ending bomb against most graveyard decks, but also comes in against Elves and Storm because we have several bad cards in those match-ups and Cage can come in and help fill those voids.

I think your point about Mishra's Factory and Karakas is interesting. First, Karakas would be clearly sub-optimal if we didn't have around 10 tutors to find it. However, since, unlike many SB cards, we can reliably tutor for it whenever it's needed, it seems really worthwhile to have. Even though it only comes in 3 or 4 matchups. And it is very effective in those matchups. I used to run a Mishra's Factory but dropped it a few months back. The problem is, at least with my SB, I just don't have many bad cards in my MD for those matchups--and I already have a few SB cards that are clearly good. Also, those matchups are pretty favorable. And we have plenty of other ways to deal with Edict effects (like 8-9 discard spells and a hard to kill 1 mana creature, Safekeeper).

There is also a special place in my heart for unique, versatile cards. Ground Seal is one of these. Others I have tried are Beckon Apparition (which actually might take the place of my Sphere!). And Funeral Charm (all three modes have utility). However, the latter two of these just were a little too low-powered to make enough impact when I drew them and it was not the "perfect time."

I run a split of 2x Abrupt Decay and 1x Krosan Grip. I take your point of Decay just being better most of the time and more versatile. I think I like the security of of having an answer for big scary artifacts and enchantments--and Grip is uniquely good in some matchups where Decay is not (Sneak n Show, Omnitell, Aluren, Food Chain, etc.) But I also see your point of that most of the time Decay is better. Depends how many slots you have to board into that sort of effect, etc. I also run 2x Collective Brutality (1 MD, 1 SB) because it is very versatile and good in some matches, not good in others). But it is able to be a kill spell, so I need a little less of the Decay effect.

Also, I love Rite of Consumption--I currently run 3x in SB. Shores up those three, common bad matchups (DnT, Miracles, Lands). As well as utility in some others (for example, Maverick, Tezz, Ensnaring Bridge decks, Deadguy Ale, the mirror, etc).

Anyways, this is a great discussion--let's keep it going :-)

[solnox]

My sb that I'm currently running

3 surgical extraction
3 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
1 pithing needle
3 sphere of resistance

2 flex slots. I ran in my last event 1 safekeeper and 1 krosan grip. Could be tireless tracker, rite of consumption. Another decay

I don't think you need 3 library in the 75. 2 is plenty. I love mishra's factory vs decks like miracles, czech, grixis. Sometimes you just copy it and beat face in.

Karakas is tutorable easy answer to emrakul. Iona. Elesh, thalia w/e griselbrand.

Might buy some ground seals to try out

I'm currently on a 2/1 split of safekeeper and notw

[solnox]

Decided to grind a few leagues yesterday.

ended up 12-3 with 3 4-1s. Tilt.

Lost to Sneak and Show, UW/b Blade, UWR Fae?

problem cards were Plow, snapcaster and counterspells. Ground Seal wouldve been amazing it if resolved but it ate a Force every time.

Munched on 5-6 Delver decks, DNT, Lands, Red Stompy, Aluren. Krosan Grip is real vs Red Stompy.. T2'd him on the draw through a T1 Blood Moon

[jdmdave]

I think we should strongly reconsider the k-grip/decay split in the board due to the blood moon rules change. There are 3-4 games in the last 3-4 leagues where a k-grip would've won me the game when I could only muster one colored source under a blood moon.

[Darkgobs]

[...]
Also, I love Rite of Consumption--I currently run 3x in SB. Shores up those three, common bad matchups (DnT, Miracles, Lands). As well as utility in some others (for example, Maverick, Tezz, Ensnaring Bridge decks, Deadguy Ale, the mirror, etc).
[...]

I tired Rite, and it was really great against Land and the mirror. Against DnT, however, I often struggle to activate the combo AND play Rite the same turn (Thalia, Rishadan, Wasteland, etc.). So it's a great card in the matchup, but maybe not gamebreaking enough to take 2 to 3 slots in the sideboard. And I wouldn't trust myself playing Rite against Miracle, because they are so counterspell-heavy, even if they tend to board some counter out g2 & g3. I get the point against Maverick though; I just haven't trained that matchup in ages.
But overall, 3 Rite of Consumption seems too much for sure IMHO: they are plenty of cards I would play more often than the 3rd Rite, and even then, I found Rite to be useful in too narrow cases, even if I feel totally godlike when I win with this tech! ;-) I would go with 1 Rite, maybe 2 at maximum, if really my meta calls it, but otherwise I would rather choose 1 more Library, which I found to be more useful than Rite a lot of time, including against DnT and Miracle.

I don't think you need 3 library in the 75. 2 is plenty.

I like the 3 Library a lot, and I almost never ended stuck with 2 in hands, since the first one will keep the others at the 2nd or 3rd position of the Library. And well, the opponent will almost always get it countered or destroyed if he has the opportunity, so it's nice to have a second one, which occurs way more often if you run 3. Anyway, in the end it's probably more of a personal feeling about getting the 3rd or not, but I wouldn't go without 2 for sure.

I love mishra's factory vs decks like miracles, czech, grixis. Sometimes you just copy it and beat face in.

About Mishra, is it really that good against Grixis Delver, aside from dodging Edict? You certainly won't be able to win a beat-up race against all the elementals / Grumag and others atrocities, even with 2-3 Mishras in play, are you?
(and typically, against Miracle and Czech, wouldn't you rather have one more Library than a Mishra, if the choice came to this decision?)

Karakas is tutorable easy answer to emrakul. Iona. Elesh, thalia w/e griselbrand.

Well, this is true but:
- we usually don't board in Karakas against D&T, or am I missing something (maybe Maverick?)?
- Against Reanimator. 1) Iona: they should name green on Iona against us, so it's not easy tutorable. If you had Crop in hand, it would surely have been better to fetch Bojuka Bog anyway. (but sure, you can have it hidden in your hand or activate an Exploration Map) 2) Elesh: almost the same than Iona, i.e. Bog is better in the matchup, especially because 3) Karakas on Griselbrand won't prevent him to draw 7 to 14 cards and combo of again.
- Show and Tell decks: Helps indeed if the Emrakul is not played though Sneak Attack. For Griselbrand, see jsut above.
So, in thoses matchups, having Karakas doesn't mean at all you're going to win, which is why I am a bit skeptical about it atm.

Once again, my point here is not that Karakas is bad: the card is in fact very good in many situations, everyone agrees on that.
But I am more and more having the impression than we give the card a bit too much credit, and that it could be an underoptimized sideboard slot in Turbo Depths.
(same for Mishra, but even worse!^^)

Decided to grind a few leagues yesterday.
ended up 12-3 with 3 4-1s. Tilt.
[...]
Krosan Grip is real vs Red Stompy.. T2'd him on the draw through a T1 Blood Moon

Good job! And god, this T2 kill must have felt soooo good! =P

[caseyc]

I tired Rite, and it was really great against Land and the mirror. Against DnT, however, I often struggle to activate the combo AND play Rite the same turn (Thalia, Rishadan, Wasteland, etc.). So it's a great card in the matchup, but maybe not gamebreaking enough to take 2 to 3 slots in the sideboard. And I wouldn't trust myself playing Rite against Miracle, because they are so counterspell-heavy, even if they tend to board some counter out g2 & g3. I get the point against Maverick though; I just haven't trained that matchup in ages.
But overall, 3 Rite of Consumption seems too much for sure IMHO: they are plenty of cards I would play more often than the 3rd Rite, and even then, I found Rite to be useful in too narrow cases, even if I feel totally godlike when I win with this tech! ;-) I would go with 1 Rite, maybe 2 at maximum, if really my meta calls it, but otherwise I would rather choose 1 more Library, which I found to be more useful than Rite a lot of time, including against DnT and Miracle.



I like the 3 Library a lot, and I almost never ended stuck with 2 in hands, since the first one will keep the others at the 2nd or 3rd position of the Library. And well, the opponent will almost always get it countered or destroyed if he has the opportunity, so it's nice to have a second one, which occurs way more often if you run 3. Anyway, in the end it's probably more of a personal feeling about getting the 3rd or not, but I wouldn't go without 2 for sure.


About Mishra, is it really that good against Grixis Delver, aside from dodging Edict? You certainly won't be able to win a beat-up race against all the elementals / Grumag and others atrocities, even with 2-3 Mishras in play, are you?
(and typically, against Miracle and Czech, wouldn't you rather have one more Library than a Mishra, if the choice came to this decision?)


Well, this is true but:
- we usually don't board in Karakas against D&T, or am I missing something (maybe Maverick?)?
- Against Reanimator. 1) Iona: they should name green on Iona against us, so it's not easy tutorable. If you had Crop in hand, it would surely have been better to fetch Bojuka Bog anyway. (but sure, you can have it hidden in your hand or activate an Exploration Map) 2) Elesh: almost the same than Iona, i.e. Bog is better in the matchup, especially because 3) Karakas on Griselbrand won't prevent him to draw 7 to 14 cards and combo of again.
- Show and Tell decks: Helps indeed if the Emrakul is not played though Sneak Attack. For Griselbrand, see jsut above.
So, in thoses matchups, having Karakas doesn't mean at all you're going to win, which is why I am a bit skeptical about it atm.

Once again, my point here is not that Karakas is bad: the card is in fact very good in many situations, everyone agrees on that.
But I am more and more having the impression than we give the card a bit too much credit, and that it could be an underoptimized sideboard slot in Turbo Depths.
(same for Mishra, but even worse!^^)




Good job! And god, this T2 kill must have felt soooo good! =P

As for Rite of Consumption-- against Miracles I run a Boseiju, Who Shelters All in my SB specifically for that matchup. So the Rite plan ends up taking 4 slots in my SB--which seems like a lot. I wonder if I could go down to 2x Rite? The only problem with that is if I don't have a Sylvan Library out, it could be pretty hard to find. DnT is just a very tough matchup. But the wins I get are usually due to Rite. I often will keep hands post-board based on having 4+ lands or having a Needle or Library to enable making land drops and keeping lands around. When I am on the Rite plan, I don't keep hands based on having combo pieces necessarily. Overall, I'd consider going down to 2x Rite, however, the Rite plan has improved my DnT, Miracles, and Lands matchups so much that I feel justified in using 4 slots. DnT my win rate is still probably below 40%, but Lands and Miracles I am well above 50%. And those are our 3 hardest matchups.

I agree with you about Mishra's Factory, I just don't think it's necessary.

Karakas I think I disagree--it is just a useful, dependable tool in our toolbox. It doesn't single-handedly win those matchups, but it is an important piece of interaction.

3rd Library? If I thought I had space for it, maybe I'd go for a 3rd. However, my SB slots are very competitive and I already have 10 cards for DnT, Lands, and Miracles.

Just for reference, my current SB is:

3x Rite of Consumption
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Sylvan Library
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Ground Seal
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Collective Brutality
1x Karakas
1x Sphere of Resistance (though this may come out, I have been experimenting with Murderous Cut against Delver, Pile, and other creature decks where you expect possible Surgical. It is a removal spell that can also thwart a Surgical Extraction through the delve cost. (We can even cast it on ML token in a pinch if we don't want to get Surgicaled and they have no creatures). Not sure it's a great option, but one I wanted to try out :-)

[solnox]

On mishras. I bring it in vs Grixis mostly for the edict protection. Its still better than Bog in most cases as Im slotting that out usually anyways.

I bring in Karakas vs DNT as Thalia is one of the most annoying cards to play against. I'm usually boarding out fast mana so having another land is helpful to increase the number of mana sources in the deck.

What would you play in the Karakas Slot?

[Darkgobs]

[...]
What would you play in the Karakas Slot?

I am trying this atm:

1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ground Seal

So basically, the "Karakas Slot" was replaced by a Surgical (because I wanted to test 2 Ground Seal and had to cut 1 Surgical for it. So now I've came back to 2 Surgical. I'll see how it goes.

[jdmdave]

Move a library main and BRING THAT KARAKAS back.

Seriously, I've played the deck through 14 rounds of a GP and 100+ matches online, and I would never EVER consider removing the karakas. You end up giving away far too many percentage points vs reanimator, S&S (already bad), & DnT.

[solnox]

@jdmdave

I'm of the same opinion but I ran 2 leagues without karakas and the only matchup where I wanted it was the BR Reanimator matchup where you're favored already without it.

I don't agree that the Sneak and Show matchup is bad. I believe its close to 50/50. We have Discard backed with a fast combo kill. Sure they'll have the nuts Tomb, Petal etc with Force Backup. But my experience with Show and Tell has been pretty even.

[Darkgobs]

Move a library main and BRING THAT KARAKAS back.

Seriously, I've played the deck through 14 rounds of a GP and 100+ matches online, and I would never EVER consider removing the karakas. You end up giving away far too many percentage points vs reanimator, S&S (already bad), & DnT.

So, you guys seems to bring ni Karakas against D&T. What are your in / out for the matchup?

I go for:
-8 fast mana
+1 Needle
+2 Sylvan
+3 Abrupt
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Surgical --> I like that more than having one random fast mana sneaking around. And it's nice after having removed StP / Flickerwisp once you discarded it. Seems better to me than Karakas in this matchup, but hey, I will try it more intensively one of theses days.

And well, I would gladly move one Sylvan Library maindeck... but there's already one, because I play 3 of it right now!^^
Against combos deck in general, beeing able to search for more discard and combo piece thanks Library helps us immensely IMHO, way more than the Karakas.

To sum it up once again and once for all: for me, Karakas comes in in less matchups than, for instance, the 3rd Sylvan Library. That's my whole point in starting this discussion: I know that Karakas is a good card, but it may be, in this precise deck & in the actual metagame, an underoptimzed choice compared to other possible options. Yes, you'll maybe loose some percentage points against Reanimator and S&T (that is only, btw, if the card you maid space for doesn't come in in the matchup). And no, I am not sure that this is correct. But I honestly think that we should at least consider this sideboarding strategy.
So I'm going to test it further and see if I'm missing the Karakas, who really only comes in in the mentioned matchups, which are matchups where I usually want my Crop Rotation to search for other cards, like Bojuka Bog for reanimator, and for a quick combo against S&T.

[solnox]

I shave Bog, 1/2 Duresses.