[Deck] Turbo Depths

[Hopo]

1) What does Assassin's Trophy do for this deck that I didn't already have access to?
2) What matchups does it improve?
3) Is it powerful enough to concede the possibility of it being countered?

You get maindeckable removal and protection in one card. It's never been this economical before and will save your precious sideboard slots. For example you can switch trophies for needles and still fight Wasteland pretty much as well as before. This time you also have actual removal.

My favorite thing is that now you have maindeck outs to Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge.

[Athlete]

This card is not good for us or basically all of combo in legacy. In Shadow, Grixis control, or delver it seems like bad news unless we can combo asap.

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

[Mr. Safety]

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

This card just confirms further that playing a slower version of this deck is not optimal. Don't give them time to cast cards like this; make sure you are loaded up with early, cheap disruption and ways to combo fast.

I understand the arguments for Assassin's Trophy, I'm just not sure the overall impact. Time will tell how prevalent the card will be and how damaging it will be. Another consideration is whether AssTrophy will subdue some of our bad matchups, like D&T or Miracles. If it does then it's kind of a neutral change to the metagame we care about. The real problem is whether D&T/Miracles stay DTB along with BGx midrange decks with AssTrophy.

I don't get the argument for maindeck removal; we could play Abrupt Decay and have maindeck answers to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, along with Delver and Baleful Strix. So with AssTrophy we can now have removal for...threats we normally ignore? Jace comes to mind, but in Jace matchups we typically don't have to worry about Wasteland, so Needle is live. We have Rite out of the board to play around Jace's sorcery-speed bounce.

I'm really scratching my head here. I'm not trying to be abrasive, I just don't think I'm in the market for AssTrophy in Turbo Depths.

[ComplexPants]

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

3 mana is a bit much, but 1UB is much better than 1BB. Also it can name any card which makes much more versatile. I don't think this will be a 4x in side board, but this card basically is an auto win against us, unless we can land DD early, but then we are exposed to wasteland. I don't know how it will shake out, but it certainly has caught my attention.

[Sinkhole]

First Thropy and now that Ego crap! Throphy will hurt the deck more than it can takes advantage out of it. I agree with Mr. Safety, that Throphy doesn`t do anything for the deck that Needle wasn`t able before to do so. Yes Throphy main answers now Bridge, but how many decks play Bridge main and BG is often times hard to support. There`s a reason why the slow Expediton maps are played. Yes Needle is a permanent and could be destroyed, but again not many decks have main deck answers for artifacts. Oh wait, Trophy will do the job in the future. Yes a 3 free mana spell is really slow against combo, fast combo. I always felt that Turbo Dephts isn`t a really fast combo deck, yes it could go off on turn 2 - 3, but I won most of my matches by playing grindy. If Unmoored Ego will see much play, I think we should include an alternative win condition in the sideboard. Maybe goyf or tracker, to switch in a Gb Rock mode, or maybe Natural order. Hopefully I am wrong, but I think this deck is over the hill.

[Hopo]

.

I don't get the argument for maindeck removal; we could play Abrupt Decay and have maindeck answers to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, along with Delver and Baleful Strix.

Listing targets is imho useless because it hits _everything_. Even Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. That's my reason to play it. I never played Decay in main deck before because it basically ate slots from Needle making your Wasteland match-up worse.

[Mr. Safety]

First Thropy and now that Ego crap! Throphy will hurt the deck more than it can takes advantage out of it. I agree with Mr. Safety, that Throphy doesn`t do anything for the deck that Needle wasn`t able before to do so. Yes Throphy main answers now Bridge, but how many decks play Bridge main and BG is often times hard to support. There`s a reason why the slow Expediton maps are played. Yes Needle is a permanent and could be destroyed, but again not many decks have main deck answers for artifacts. Oh wait, Trophy will do the job in the future. Yes a 3 free mana spell is really slow against combo, fast combo. I always felt that Turbo Dephts isn`t a really fast combo deck, yes it could go off on turn 2 - 3, but I won most of my matches by playing grindy. If Unmoored Ego will see much play, I think we should include an alternative win condition in the sideboard. Maybe goyf or tracker, to switch in a Gb Rock mode, or maybe Natural order. Hopefully I am wrong, but I think this deck is over the hill.

I like the idea of an alternative combo, as long as it's compact. A few posts back we talked about the 4x Khalni Garden list and the potential for Natural Order into Worldspine Wurm or Progenitus. I like that plan out of the sideboard, but only if we really see an uptick of these new hate cards. I've done Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard before and it's decent, for sure.

[Mr. Safety]

Listing targets is imho useless because it hits _everything_. Even Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. That's my reason to play it. I never played Decay in main deck before because it basically ate slots from Needle making your Wasteland match-up worse.

But we don't care about _everything_. We care about: Wasteland, Karakas, Terminus, Diabolic Edict, flying blockers.

What will you cut for AssTrophy maindeck? If you cut the fast mana (Petal/ESG) you reduce your ability to play it through wasteland. If you cut Needles, you reduce your ability to fight Karakas/Wasteland (Needle cutting them off is better than just destroying it once.) So again, not trying to be abrasive, but what are you cutting for AssTrophy? Would it be the slow tutors like I did or the fast mana? Both have their appeal, and both have their drawbacks.

I ended up cutting the slower tutors for Dark Confidant x3 in the maindeck (2x Map and 1x Sylvan Scrying), but that was mostly so I could see my sideboard cards more often and also to provide interference for removal. Drawing extra cards is always nice, and an additional body to absorb Edict effects is great. I can easily sideboard into a 'fair' grindy/midrange plan with Hymns, Libraries, and Decays because I already have 4x maindeck Confidants to play the value game.

[Hopo]

But we don't care about _everything_. We care about: Wasteland, Karakas, Terminus, Diabolic Edict, flying blockers.

I have to also care about Blood Moon, Bridge and to lesser degree Back to Basics etc.

It's not that I don't understand the difference between needle and trophy.

[Mr. Safety]

I have to also care about Blood Moon, Bridge and to lesser degree Back to Basics etc.

It's not that I don't understand the difference between needle and trophy.

I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't; sorry if I was coming across as a jerk. All I mean to say is that we already had answers for the problems that faced the deck with Needle and Decay, Trophy doesn't do anything new. If Trophy somehow answered Terminus I would be onboard in a second, but that's still a card that we have a hard time dealing with.

I've debated splashing Blood Moon into this deck, honestly. The interaction of fetching basic lands and playing a Blood Moon off a Lotus Petal (or another mana fixing source like a Badlands or Taiga) and then playing out Dark Depths. It would enter without counters and I just have to pick my moment to kill the Blood Moon with Decay and I have a 20/20.

[Sinkhole]

I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't; sorry if I was coming across as a jerk. All I mean to say is that we already had answers for the problems that faced the deck with Needle and Decay, Trophy doesn't do anything new. If Trophy somehow answered Terminus I would be onboard in a second, but that's still a card that we have a hard time dealing with.

I've debated splashing Blood Moon into this deck, honestly. The interaction of fetching basic lands and playing a Blood Moon off a Lotus Petal (or another mana fixing source like a Badlands or Taiga) and then playing out Dark Depths. It would enter without counters and I just have to pick my moment to kill the Blood Moon with Decay and I have a 20/20.

Hmm interesting idea, I thoughted of something similar longer time ago, but is a 3 Color manabase really affordable with blood moon? And Hexmage I think wouldn`t be playable with BB anymore. Like I said something similar came to my mind before, but instead of 3 Color I thoughted of straight RG. I don`t have a deck list but I might think about including P. Fire - Grove Engine for killing Magus, 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus, maybe Chalice for fighting Delver and other Combo, but than we have to cut Needle, maybe playing a Set of our own Wastelands and I see we need a good versataile Removel for our Blood Moons, not sure what it could be.

Not sure if that works out and would be better than classic GB. Maybe there are some good suggestions for you, that you want to test out

[Mr. Safety]

Hmm interesting idea, I thoughted of something similar longer time ago, but is a 3 Color manabase really affordable with blood moon? And Hexmage I think wouldn`t be playable with BB anymore. Like I said something similar came to my mind before, but instead of 3 Color I thoughted of straight RG. I don`t have a deck list but I might think about including P. Fire - Grove Engine for killing Magus, 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus, maybe Chalice for fighting Delver and other Combo, but than we have to cut Needle, maybe playing a Set of our own Wastelands and I see we need a good versataile Removel for our Blood Moons, not sure what it could be.

Not sure if that works out and would be better than classic GB. Maybe there are some good suggestions for you, that you want to test out

At that point it's a worse RG Lands deck, I think. Blood Moon can combo with Dark Depths, but it would have to be at the expense of Hexmage. It could be a sideboard plan, splashing (1) red dual to accommodate it and prioritizing fetching Forest/Swamp (so you can Decay it after Moon has done it's job.) Overall, the instability and risk aren't worth it for Blood Moon. However, I think Turbo Depths does a decent (if not perfect) job of playing around Blood Moon already. Yes we lose to a t1 blood moon in most cases, but with ESG/Lotus Petal and even one turn to dig out a basic Forest or Swamp and we can try and draw into our Decays. Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant go a long way towards making this approach feasible.

EDIT: There was a deck called 'Marit-ocracy' going around for a little while that played 4x Simian Spirit Guide, 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, and 4x Lotus Petal and relied solely on land tutors and Stage/Depths to combo. It was faster at making a 20/20 but less versatile with a lack of discard or Hexmage as a utility creature. That approach might be able to use Blood Moon, and something like Nature's Claim or Natural State. Even Beast Within could be decent, as it hits any permanent, the 3/3 can be ignored, and if we are destroying our own Moon it gives us a 3/3 as well.

[Sinkhole]

I agree with you that we might be a worse version of lands, that`s the reason I never really tried a RG version of the deck. Chalice with Crop, Safekeeper and Needle is anti synergetic. Also I don`t like to loose the discard spells, I even considered going up to 10 Spells. Would like to play 2 Hymns, but I don`t find the space for it. Tireless Tracker and Executor or Crucible could be annother good sideboard options, if we want to morph in a different deck to doge opponent`s boarded hate.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with you that we might be a worse version of lands, that`s the reason I never really tried a RG version of the deck. Chalice with Crop, Safekeeper and Needle is anti synergetic. Also I don`t like to loose the discard spells, I even considered going up to 10 Spells. Would like to play 2 Hymns, but I don`t find the space for it. Tireless Tracker and Executor or Crucible could be annother good sideboard options, if we want to morph in a different deck to doge opponent`s boarded hate.

My current sideboard:

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Sylvan Library
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Golgari Charm
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Karakas


Hymns go in the Sphere of Resistance slots, which are good against both Storm and Miracles. Sphere was really only for Storm and other fast combo. I could see going down to 2 Hymns an putting in a Ramunap Excavator, but I would essentially have 2 copies because I maindeck Green Sun's Zenith (to get Arbor and Safekeeper.) I already squeezed in 3x Dark Confidant maindeck, so boarding in Library, Decay, and Hymn is plenty to morph it into a mid-range grindy deck that can also combo. Fast mana, Pithing Needles, Dryad Arbor, and Khalni Garden are all flex slots to play around with depending on matchup.

[Hopo]

I feel that the Blood Moon trick works better the other way around: by adding Depths to a Blood Moon deck. What you are trying to accomplish is not what we would call Turbo Depths and discuss in this thread.
If you anyway want to explore this synergy, I'd guess it's better to start with 4 x Magus since it's so much easier to kill then Blood Moon.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think Turbo Depths is a bad version of Lands; it's just different. If you want RG and Punishing Fire then Lands is the deck to play. If you want discard and an all-in plan go with Turbo. Just different approaches, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

There is little that hasn't been attempted at this point so it becomes a matter of meta-gaming your list to beat what's there. The raw power of this deck means I don't think it will ever by truly dead, or even a terrible choice. Experienced pilots should still be able to grind through effectively in a tournament. I liken it to ANT/TES, decks that take time to learn and optimize. They may not be the best choice in the meta-game at large but experienced pilots are still doing well with it. David Long just took 2nd place at Mox Ruby: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20098&f=LE and Daniel Britain got top 8 in a 1k: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20048&d=330127&f=LE. Both events had 50+ players and top tier decks to fight against.

Commitment is what we need! Commitment to Marit Lage!

[hovercraft]

Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?

[Mr. Safety]

Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?

That's my guess. Gaddock Teeg prevents Terminus, which is very difficult to work around unless you catch them with it in hand (rare) so you can have them discard it. T2 Hymn can deal with it occasionally, but you still have to fight through Council's Judgment and Unexpectedly Absent (Teeg stops this too.) Those are easier to discard but they naturally put Terminus back on top of their library anyways, which is impossible to interact with (unless you Ghost Quarter their only white source and they have to shuffle and grab the basic land, pretty unlikely.) Teeg also stops Jace from landing, one of the best cards against Depths. Teeg also, in narrow spots, helps against TES/ANT by stopping their win conditions and engine cards. They tend to be faster than Depths so it's probably better to use fast mana to GSZ into Teeg and then combo a turn or 2 later.

GSZ into Tireless Tracker is a way to grind, similar to RG Lands boarding Trackers. GSZ into Dryad Arbor ramps + give Edict protection. I was sideboarding Tarmogoyfs for a little while, which can be great but it takes up a ton of space in the board.

Overall, I think the presence of Dark Confidant and Mox Diamond are ways to have a grindier deck that is slightly slower. He's playing Wasteland and no Needles maindeck, so he's definitely trying to play around Wasteland by waste/GQ-ing their wastelands.

I think it's going a little too deep myself with Diamond, it's too close to Lands without Loam. Without Loam, Crucible, or Ramanup Excavator Diamond is just a Chrome Mox that happens to use lands instead of spells. Not a fan, overall, because the other fast mana options still allow for explosive starts but aren't susceptible to countermagic, Abrupt Decay, or KCommand. They only get used once, but it's usually to play something very relevant (tutor, Bob, Library) or combo immediately.

I like GSZ a ton, it allows for silver bullets like Dryad Arbor, Safekeeper, and potentially Excavator, Reclamation Sage, and Teeg out of the board. I wouldn't want to waste sideboard slots on GSZ though; find a way to squeeze it in main or leave it out entirely.

[hovercraft]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

I think Dark Confidant, and sideboarded Libraries, already do that job just fine. I can see the usefulness of Mox Diamond as a reusable mana source, but I would be petrified to register a list without maindeck Needles. They do so much against the format at-large that I can't see a reason to drop them for Wastelands.

Honestly, if I were to play my own Wastelands then a blue splash would be ideal. Diamond gives you blue, along with some blue duals/fetches, so you can play Brainstorm and Stifle. Stifle lets you play around Wasteland while letting you use it yourself. Brainstorm is brainstorm, busted AF. It's a different deck, but BUG Depths is the real deal as well. I think Negator on here was using BUG Depths to some decent success.