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Thread: [Deck] Turbo Depths

  1. #3101

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Mr. Safety, this thread is for all versions of Turbo Depths. BUG is included in this.

    No basic lands has cost me zero games so far. We're pretty dead to a reasonable Red Stompy draw anyway. If the opponent casts Back to Basics, we're probably winning or losing anyway. Remember that Miracles is favorable if you leave enough mana untapped for their turn and play enough lights-out cards.

    I agree that Turbo Depths is consistent. That's what is really appealing to me about the deck in general. Now for advantages of BUG. I consider Brainstorm a way to 1) increase consistent access to cards that you *can't* tutor for, such as Flusterstorm, discard, or sideboard cards, 2) put back situational cards such as Sejiri Steppe, Bojuka Bog, and especially Pithing Needle, 3) hide cards from Hymn to Tourach - one of the few ways to lose against UBx decks. The only other card you get is Flusterstorm (I don't count the 1-of Stifle), which is good vs combo decks such as Sneak and Show and Storm while also serving as a nice tool vs UWx. So for the current metagame, you will admit that BUG looks rather attractive.

    Mox Diamond *has* to be played in BUG to maintain all your colors consistently. This comes with an increased land count, which is a cost - your topdecks are, on average, more land-heavy. But often you are hoping to topdeck land #3 or land #4 anyway in order to combo. Interestingly, with straight BG my green sources only number like 10 or so post-board against UWx. The biggest reason why I lose any games at all vs UWx with BG is because of this mana screw.

    One thing I don't like about BUG is that the sideboard plans vs a lot of decks involve removing Brainstorm or Mox Diamond, essentially making the deck into BG turbo with increased land count. It's interesting, but I think there is something wrong with that. Another problem is the lack of sideboard space for some cards I want to fit in.

    I still play Turbo Depths in paper (don't have Mox Diamond or blue lands) and I went 6-2 in the Legacy classic in Worcester with it. The turbo version is still strong too.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
    -Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

  2. #3102
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Cool, thanks for the response. I understand all versions are welcome here, I was just surprised where you were advocating a non-Mox list a month ago and are now on a Mox list. It's no big deal, and I understand the online metagame is different, as well as card availability much higher online. It's good to know that basic lands aren't too big of a tradeoff, but for my own sanity I'll stick to straight BG. I think the blue splash is the same reason I added Dark Confidant: it lets you dig further for cards you need that can't be tutored, especially sideboard cards. Library does the same, but I know from experience that it's even better when you have both Confidant AND Library.

    Would you mind breaking down your Miracles approach for BG? That is the one matchup I tend to struggle against.
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  3. #3103
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    @Mr. Safety - I'm curious in what part are you having trouble against Miracles?

    I used to play Turbo Depths and now playing Turbo Animator (traitor ) and I don't have any problem facing Miracles. Just play discard, sylvan safekeeper and if you could surgical their swords to plowshare then it's a guarantee you'd win against them. Sylvan Library helps a lot also.

  4. #3104
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I probably just need more practice. I may be leaning too heavily on early Confidants to pressure Miracles. It just seems like they always have the Terminus.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  5. #3105

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Yeah, I used to have the same issue w/Terminus vs Miracles. Biggest help I found was to leave GQ in post-board and use the forced shuffle to get it out in response to whatever they're using to draw. Also helps get you out from under counterbalance, as does Surgical.

  6. #3106

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by dd_bray View Post
    Yeah, I used to have the same issue w/Terminus vs Miracles. Biggest help I found was to leave GQ in post-board and use the forced shuffle to get it out in response to whatever they're using to draw. Also helps get you out from under counterbalance, as does Surgical.
    GQ is not a forced shuffle. Surgical is, but it won't resolve vs Counterbalance most of the time.

    Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace. This is also true against Grixis - don't let them play Jace. If you commit to this plan vs Miracles, you can board out your Pithing Needles and that makes room for your good cards. Usually you want Decay + Trophy to make sure you can answer B2B or Mentor.

    You can save discard to make sure that your important spells resolve, but balance this against the chance of letting them cast something big. Depends on how many cards they have in hand vs you. Discard generally takes cards that answer your cards (Swords to Plowshares if your hand is combo-centric or if you can Surgical them, Council's Judgment vs Library/Safekeeper), cards that win them the game (B2B, Mentor), and then cards that give them card advantage or pressure (Snapcaster, Clique, Predict sometimes, Brainstorm). Leveraging discard correctly can be very scary for them. If you're playing on MTGO, take your time on these decisions to plan out your next few turns.

    Sylvan Library and Sylvan Safekeeper are very important. Protect them if possible, and value hands with them pretty highly. It can be good to wait a bit before casting them if you have other things to do or if that allows you to not tap out (see above). Depending on what they have in hand that can beat these (Engineered Explosives, Council's Judgment) you can leverage your information advantage by playing cards only when you want to. Information is very key here. Obviously if you have Boseiju + Rite, that gives you a different plan that is much more straightforward.

    Bringing in Surgical is good vs Swords to Plowshares. However, Miracles generally has other instant-speed effects that can also hit Lage - Celestial Purge, Path to Exile, instant speed blocking with Clique -> Jace bounce. So it's not game over if you can Surgical plow.

    Hope this helps.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
    -Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

  7. #3107

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace.
    Ok, now I'm totally lost. What do you mean by this? It's not that we can do alot against Jace on their turn except for a trophy. Or am I missing something?

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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    Ok, now I'm totally lost. What do you mean by this? It's not that we can do alot against Jace on their turn except for a trophy. Or am I missing something?
    If you present the combo on board, they can't tap out for Jace for obvious reasons. You can delay Jace's landing to turn 5-6 by just letting the combo sit in play while you try to dig for insurance (discard, Safekeeper, needle to Jace). EDIT: brevity
    Last edited by jolssoni; 01-26-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  9. #3109
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    If you have the combo on board/you're mana off but have ESG in hand/need to resolve one Crop Rotation for the kill and they don't have Force, they can't tap out for Jace for obvious reasons. You can delay Jace's landing to turn 5-6 by just letting the combo sit in play while you try to dig for insurance (discard, Safekeeper, needle to Jace).
    THIS. Against Miralces and Grixis Control, you have the option of just sitting on the combo (which Depths is generally able to put together before the dreaded turn 4 Jace) and waiting until you are ready to combo. They have virtually no clock in most games to pressure you into acting. Sometimes that means you wait until you can play an additional fetch to play around Diabolic Edict with Dryad Arbor. Sometimes it means waiting for your additional protection card whether that is discard, Safekeeper, Surgical, Crop Rotation, Flusterstorm, etc depending on your version. While you wait, almost everything they want to cast during their own turn has an additional cost of 1 or 2 or they just flat out die. This applies to Mentor, Back to Basics, etc. too. Obviously if you can just kill them early with all known or mostly known info, you go for it. If not, like DNSolver said, you have to prioritize not allowing them to slam Jace or other bombs by threatening the kill each turn. Oddly, played some exhibition matches Vs Whitefaces on Miracles a couple of days ago where this comes up a ton. He streamed it here if you want to check it out: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/369241107

  10. #3110
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    GQ is not a forced shuffle. Surgical is, but it won't resolve vs Counterbalance most of the time.

    Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace. This is also true against Grixis - don't let them play Jace. If you commit to this plan vs Miracles, you can board out your Pithing Needles and that makes room for your good cards. Usually you want Decay + Trophy to make sure you can answer B2B or Mentor.

    You can save discard to make sure that your important spells resolve, but balance this against the chance of letting them cast something big. Depends on how many cards they have in hand vs you. Discard generally takes cards that answer your cards (Swords to Plowshares if your hand is combo-centric or if you can Surgical them, Council's Judgment vs Library/Safekeeper), cards that win them the game (B2B, Mentor), and then cards that give them card advantage or pressure (Snapcaster, Clique, Predict sometimes, Brainstorm). Leveraging discard correctly can be very scary for them. If you're playing on MTGO, take your time on these decisions to plan out your next few turns.

    Sylvan Library and Sylvan Safekeeper are very important. Protect them if possible, and value hands with them pretty highly. It can be good to wait a bit before casting them if you have other things to do or if that allows you to not tap out (see above). Depending on what they have in hand that can beat these (Engineered Explosives, Council's Judgment) you can leverage your information advantage by playing cards only when you want to. Information is very key here. Obviously if you have Boseiju + Rite, that gives you a different plan that is much more straightforward.

    Bringing in Surgical is good vs Swords to Plowshares. However, Miracles generally has other instant-speed effects that can also hit Lage - Celestial Purge, Path to Exile, instant speed blocking with Clique -> Jace bounce. So it's not game over if you can Surgical plow.

    Hope this helps.
    Big time, thanks.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  11. #3111

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    For those that play lost legacy in their sideboard, do you board them in for swords to plowshare match ups like dnt, miracles and uw Stoneblade?

    Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk

  12. #3112

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Not playing turbo depths from many months, is there a good starting point? i'm searching for an updated list.
    I mean versions without mox diamond (can't afford those cards).

  13. #3113
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I've done a ton of testing and I think Maze of Ith is worth a maindeck slot. Sometimes you just need time to assemble protection for the combo (discard, Steppe, etc) and Maze does that really will. I also got the chance to copy it with Thespian's Stage to stone-cold stop an opponent's offense (delver variant.) I think the tricks with Stage are worth it's inclusion, that one slot does a lot of work. I ended up cutting 1x Sylvan Scrying for it. I like how it works in the mirror match and against Lands as well (I have a glut of Lands players in my local metagame.) Another maindeck answer to Griseltard isn't bad either. I don't use Moxen but I don't think you need them to make Maze good.

    So come hell or high water, I'm going to a 1K Saturday and this is my list:

    4x Vampire Hexmage
    3x Elvish Spirit Guide
    3x Dark Confidant
    2x Sylvan Safekeeper
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Duress
    2x Cabal Therapy
    4x Crop Rotation
    3x Pithing Needle
    3x Sylvan Scrying
    2x Abrupt Decay

    4x Dark Depths
    4x Thespianís Stage
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Bayou
    2x Blooming Marsh
    3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Sejiri Steppe
    1x bojuka bog
    1x Ghost Quarter
    1x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Dryad Arbor
    1x Maze of Ith

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Golgari Charm
    1x Toxic Deluge
    1x karakas
    2x Rite of Consumption
    2x Choke
    2x Sylvan Library
    2x Collective Brutality
    1x Abrupt Decay


    If I can nab an Assassin's Trophy I will swap that out with the Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. Also debating a 2nd Deluge over Golgari Charm, but I like the instant speed potential and the added enchantment removal against the odd Blood Moon deck (it's an awkward answer, but it's an answer.)
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  14. #3114
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    What are people's impression of Bitterblossom lately? At one point in time it was a really good sideboard option. I don't know which matchups it helps against, maybe Miracles and Grixis Control, but I haven't tried it in a long time.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  15. #3115

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I had an other 5-0 (third one) with previous build, but now I m testing warping wail 2 main 2 side and I am liking them, the deck is a little weak to combo decks and I can't spalsh blue for flusterstorm
    though my version is better against combo than darkconfidant build because of cabal therapy+garden. Warping wail is a very good card in my deck it gives outs to many things and is never dead.

    I am testing planar void instead of surgical cause I had problems against dredge and lands is not so good; don't know if it weakens too much the miracle matchup which is a good matchup for my list.

    EDIT : back to surgical planar void doesn't answers turn one entomb into fatty and is not good enough for miracle

    EDIT : discard is better with cabal for the main, will play the wail only inside

    EDIT : back to 4 scrying 4 garden testing nihil spllbomb in side instead of surgical


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 7 Artifact
    3 Pithing Needle
    4 Expedition Map

    // 4 Creature
    4 Vampire Hexmage

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Sylvan Library

    // 6 Instant
    4 Crop Rotation

    // 27 Land
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Thespian's Stage
    4 Dark Depths
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    2 Maze of Ith
    4 Khalni Garden
    4 Blooming Marsh
    3 Llanowar Wastes

    // 12 Sorcery
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    2 Duress


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 3 Creature
    SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper
    // 3 Enchantment
    SB: 3 Surgical extraction
    // 5 Instant
    SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 3 Warping Wail
    // 1 Land
    SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
    // 3 Sorcery
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

    Last edited by adrieng; 02-06-2019 at 12:21 PM.

  16. #3116
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    How is your deck weak to combo decks with nine maindeck discard? I am not criticizing, you're doing very well, but it seems excessive. Eight is accepted and I am getting away with 7 (Confidant draws me into them, Therapy doubles up.) I think the Warping Wail idea is cool, but reactive. I would think Sneak/Show would be a favorable matchup given the Therapies and heavy discard emphasis, same with Storm. Flusterstorm counters instant speed removal on Marit Lage. What is Warping Wail countering/killing? You say it gives you a lot of outs, but I can't seem to think of any besides Show and Tell, Burning Wish, and Infernal Tutor. I think those slots would be better as Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy. I think with so many lands you could even pull off Maelstrom Pulse.

    Planar Void is fine but it's no Surgical Extraction. I see a fair amount of Dredge at my local and I have an incredibly positive matchup (maindeck Bog will do that.) Even without Bog I can race them typically by mulliganing aggressively. Surgical is only a speedbump agains them, but with Therapy binning a creature to exile their Bridges and Surgical getting their bridges or GGT's it should be enough to get there. The real reason for surgical is *not* losing to Reanimator t1. It also pairs with discard to completely strip combo decks of key pieces.

    EDIT: I got an interaction wrong, deleted.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-05-2019 at 08:46 AM.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  17. #3117

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    it seems you dindn't test enough the storm matchup 9 discard is not enough against storm, but with cabal therapy I am fine that baically double the numbr of discard.
    Against ichorid led ichorid manaless is a bye, crop into bog is not enough if they go off turn one they can easily have a cabal therapy on crop, surgical is not good enough.

    Confidant is too slow against storm, they can go off turn 1-3, 8 discard is not enough especially if you don't play khalni garden +cabal therapy.
    Needle doesn't work on ichorid.

    Planar void seems better to me against reanimator than surgical but not still sure (I own both), you have outs to all their creatures, and they want to pass a discard or two before going off usually.

    warping wail is a very good card against storm(counters stuff), against elf (kill crea or counter order/glimpse), against poison (kill crea), against deth and taxes (kill crea and mother can't give protection), against show and tell (counters stuff)
    against deck playing confidant, kills strix or counters tourach against grixis control, kills unflipped delver, young pyromancer monastery and so on ....

    the card can also accelerate into turn 3 token turn two eldrazi token or flashback cabal therapy with the token, it is a very good card and a better one than decay maindeck.
    Last edited by adrieng; 01-31-2019 at 11:25 AM.

  18. #3118

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Oops, I was playing that wrong then. I did some test matches against Dredge and that's how we played it. Reading the card it's definitely a triggered ability. Even without Needle I still went roughly 9/10 against Dredge. Depths is naturally just faster, even without CR > Bog. Admittedly I haven't played against Storm much with this deck. It isn't a popular option locally, there might be 1-2 storm players in a 1K of 40 people. Lands, Death and Taxes, Show and Tell, and lots of janky shit make up most of my local meta.
    How did you nor your opponent not know how needle or ichord works?

    Also if youíre surgical-ing grave trolls youíre likely doing it wrong.

  19. #3119
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkii View Post
    How did you nor your opponent not know how needle or ichord works?

    Also if youíre surgical-ing grave trolls youíre likely doing it wrong.
    We were both testing; he had just put together dredge and was unfamiliar with the deck and I hadn't faced Dredge in a long time. Whatever, it wasn't a tournament. Thanks for the helpful clarification. #sarcasm

    If my opponent is on the play and gets only 1 dredger in the graveyard I will 100% snap off a Surgical for that dredger. It likely would buy me at least 2 turns to combo off. As I said, the matchup is already favorable. If the matchup is favorable already you can be flexible in how you utilize your sideboard cards. No need to wait for Bridges etc when all you need is a time walk to hit them for 20.
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  20. #3120
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What are people's impression of Bitterblossom lately? At one point in time it was a really good sideboard option. I don't know which matchups it helps against, maybe Miracles and Grixis Control, but I haven't tried it in a long time.
    Blossom is just generally good IMO; though I'm coming from a much more "fair" perspective; may be bad for the deck.

    Blossom stops opposing Lages *really* well, keeps Lily/Edict off your back, turns Delver into a 1/2 or so, and was honestly buffed when DRS was removed because instead of getting bolted each turn he was alive, you can now basically guarantee it buys you significant time *unless* you're already way behind on board. The fact that most decks can't answer the card at all in the main, sometimes not even in the sidebaord, and that even when they can it almost always takes multiple cards is a testament to its value.

    Finally, it continues being a threat even after sweepers, making it reasonable against Miracles, Blood Moon, or similar.

    Back when DRS was all the rage I still preferred Blossom against Souls, as it often out-grinded the souls. Lastly, no one is running Goyf; which leaves you in a very safe position as one of Blossom's biggest drawbacks is giving the perm +2 to opposing goyfs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

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