Thanks for sharing, interesting reading.
But I have to say I disagree with one of your statement:
"So yes, in Turbo Depths [Once Upon a Time] is not bad, but also not better than the existing cards (it does provide a free replacement for a faster combo)"
And here is why: Turbo Depths is a deck that plays 0 to 4 Sylvan Scrying (a lot of the Slow Depths list have cut the card completely), depending on the version played. Well, I think Once Upon A Time is actually doing a much better job than Sylvan Scrying. And you have to compare it to this precise card, because both cards are used almost in the same way and are in direct competition. Unlike Crop Rotation , which is (at least in Depths decks) clearly superior and a must-have card. Same idea with Elvish Reclaimer: it is not only an instant speed tutor that use no land drop (same than Crop Rotation) but also a creature with a good body. You could also maybe compare it with Sylvan Library, but I think that would be a mistake, since Sylvan Library's purpose is clearly different.
So, to sum it up: I think that in Turbo Depths, the only card that we should compare to Once Upon A Time is Sylvan Scrying. And if we compare both cards, Once Upon A Time is in my opinion strictly better than the only existing card we can compare it to:
Once Upon A Time compared to Sylvan Scrying
con:
- search only in the top 5 cards of your library.
pro:
- can also find creature cards.
- is an instant.
- can be played for free if it's the first spell you play.
So...this is pretty clear to me: pro > con !
Of course, this is only my opinion, based on my intuition and supported by the testings I did until now. So please tell me if you disagree, and why (maybe your testing went differently than mine!)!
I might have missed something, but only the fact that a famous Depths player like DNSolver still choose to play Sylvan Scrying over Once Upon A Time makes me question again this whole comparison. And truth is that until I get a new explanation or new data from testing, I think it is sub-optimal to run Sylvan Scrying over Once Upon A Time.
And also: "So yes, in Turbo Depths [Once Upon a Time] is not bad, but also not better than the existing cards (it does provide a free replacement for a faster combo)" --> I want a faster combo every day!
So can see my list in the link earlier provided where I ended 4th.
Played 4 Sylvan Scrying and 2 Once upon a time. You are absolutely correct about the pro's. But that one con is bigger than you think.
For example, you can create marit lage, but you need a sejiri steppe to get him through, there is no guarantee that Once upon a Time will find that card. Same with the other one offs. (Bojuka Bog, Ghost Quarter, …) things that you need on that moment to win the game.
So YES, it provides a (slightly) faster combo, but not a better one. I'm more of a fast combo man myself than the slower, more versitile version (with reclaimer). But I would NEVER replace Scrying by it. But it does complement it greatly.
I see it as Sylvan Scrying 5-8, but with a different approach.
Makes sense, but I think there is a better alternative to circumvent the problem you mentioned: running 4 Elvish Reclaimer alongside 4 Once Upon A Time.
Because I also think a through-the-whole-library-toolbox potential is needed. But I think that Reclaimer does that overall better than Sylvan Scrying, even in the turbo version. And Reclaimer is able to circumvent the land drop at ritual speed condition that Sylvan Scrying requires. So I really think the Reclaimer + OuaT is the way to go.
DNSolver went onto the Leaving a Legacy podcast to talk about his list that won the LAL Open. He goes to great depths (pun intended) to describe how he came up with his list.
https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2...nner-dnsolver/
His thoughts were really great, and given that information he shared I am now playing less than a set of 4 Sylvan Scrying and instead playing a 2/2 maindeck split of Library/Scrying. Personally, I'm all in favor of Sylvan Library maindeck, it's so powerful. He also mentions exactly why he was on Not of this World vs Sylvan Safekeeper (which he had in the sideboard.) Overall, great interview and worth the hour it takes to listen to it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I know most of these threads on DTB are pretty well dead, but I saw a really fun list recently that took 2nd place in Arizona. It's a quad-laser approach with a bunch of playsets and some older tech (Not of this World). Once Deathrite Shaman was banned I went back to a Turbo approach, eschewing the Mox Diamond/Loam/mid-range approach. I had mixed results, but now it seems it's better to just focus on making a 20/20 ASAP and wrecking shit. NotW is perfect for that approach, just because Sylvan Safekeeper needs an extra land drop or two to fight through multiple interactions. If the opponent could realistically only have one piece of interaction like StP or a Karakas activation, NotW can really shine. Safekeepers still show up in the sideboard, which I think is appropriate right now. As far as I can tell, Reclaimer is basically just a 9th tutor. I love the 4 Needle approach, it seems very good in this world of PW-dominated control decks. Wasteland/Delver approaches are at seemingly lower numbers recently, which is generally a good matchup for Turbo Depths, but another deck is glaringly absent recently: Moon Stompy. I think this opens up space for this deck again (not that it ever really went away.) For reference, list is below:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24413&d=370591&f=LE
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm gearing up for when paper magic gets re-established. I'm still unsure when it will happen, but this has been my favorite deck for several years now, so I'll have it in paper and ready to go.
I'm curious what a good sideboard would look like currently. I play Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay maindeck, fussing around with the discard and tutor numbers to squeeze them in. I think Dark Confidant could possibly be good out of the sideboard again, and I'm not sure what the number of Veil of Summer should be. So here's my list, the only real difference is I only have 1 Bayou so I use 2x Bhooming Marsh. I'm not sure where Elvish Reclaimer fits either. In general, if I'm not playing Dark Confidant and Mox Diamond maindeck, then I think Sylvan Scrying is just a superior tutor by being faster at making a Marit Lage. I don't even have a full set of Scrying, so I didn't squeeze in Reclaimer. With the mid-range sideboard plan, I think it belongs in here somewhere, at least x1, but I'm not quite sure where to cut. Maybe Not of This World isn't very good at the moment? I'm not married to the 2 copies maindeck, they are flex-spots that could be Reclaimer, maindeck Safekeeper, or something else.
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Pithing Needle
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Not of This World
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard (Tentative)
3x Force of Vigor
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Karakas
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Plague Engineer
2x Dark Confidant
The 'Rock' impression out of the sideboard, considering the maindeck Library/Decay, is very real. This is how I've always liked playing Depths. For how messed up the Deathrite era was, I loved what the card did for Turbo Depths.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 08-04-2020 at 07:04 AM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Dead thread is dead, but any thoughts on Negator's rainbow depths list? (basically bug depths that runs rainbow lands for 2x stifle md + flusters in sb)
Seems pretty good since Blood Moon isn't particularly popular right now (plus we have Force of Vigor now anyways), with the added benefit of being pretty cheap.
It's cool, a clean answer to Submerge. I've always loved Turbo Depths as both an affordable and competitive deck. It's still my primary go-to deck for competitive play (whenever that happens again...)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
That's also true! I have to admit I've never seen Submerge in my life haha. Did it start to see more sb play when Depths was a dtb or did something else happen? Maybe it was always in some sbs, I've never played a blue deck in my life (well, in Legacy at least) so I wouldn't know
It goes in/out of fashion in delver decks. It was originally to win Tarmogoyf standoffs in RUG delver, but now with additional creatures causing problems (Uro mostly) it's a decent answer again. It overlaps to deal with Marit Lage nicely. However...without fetch/duals/basic Forest it becomes dead.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I faced Submerge at a paper event 2 weeks ago. It was from Delver, which was half the decks in the event.
How do we feel about the slower BG Depths in the current climate? If this isn't the right thread, lmk. Here's what I'm thinking of running for reference:
Maindeck:
3x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Nurturing Peatland
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Swamp
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland
3x Dark Confidant
4x Elvish Reclaimer
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Crop Rotation
4x Once Upon a Time
2x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
1x Sylvan Library
2x Mox Diamond
Sideboard:
3x Fatal Push
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plague Engineer
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Veil of Summer
This is the right thread, for sure.
Is this you?
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28958&d=428351&f=LE
I've always been of the mindset that I'd rather have some flexible disruption in the maindeck, but not go full-on mid-range with Mox Diamonds. I love maindeck Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay but I'd rather sideboard Dark Confidant and Sylvan Safekeeper. I always thought the Pithing Needle plan was rock-solid as well, but many players have strayed away from this approach. Given how problematic Oko and Wasteland are in the current best deck (RUG Delver) I would think Pithing Needle would be fantastic. Just my opinions! I have stuck with the Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal plan since I began playing the deck a couple years ago, so I'm a little biased on the fast combo approach with a mid-range sideboard plan.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Well, I hadn't gotten around to converting my mana base to the rainbow setup for Stifle and now I think I won't. Pithing Needle seems to be a lot more valuable shutting down multiple Wastelands and Rishadan Ports. I think the Aether Vial decks got a pretty good boost with Oko gone and the land-based disruption will actually do something against greedier mana-bases again. I'm still going with my 'stuck somewhere between mid-range and turbo' setup. Not sure on the sideboard until the metagame settles down, but I'm committed to this for a maindeck:
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Not of this World
4x Pithing Needle
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
Sideboard
3x Force of Vigor
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Karakas
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Dryad Arbor
6x OPEN
I'm eyeballing Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, Veil of Summer, Plague Engineer, Toxic Deluge, Bitterblossom, and Liliana, the Last Hope as options out of the board. With maindeck Library/Decay it opens up a few slots for additional tools.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Please, can someone explain me why depths use rainbow manabase right now. Is it true that rainbow version is stronger than classic one? Havent played format last two years.
Its just because flusterstorm and stifle are so important to winning combo matchups.
Plus the uptick in Submerge from RUG Delver. With the uncertainty of RUG Delver's spot in the format currently, it looks like UR, Grixis, and maybe even BUG Delver will become the popular variants. Still, any of them can use Submerge, and if Depths gets better in the format than it will likely stay in sideboards.
Stifle was not just for Storm, but also Oko. With Oko gone I don't know if Stifle is the correct card anymore. Flusterstorm was also good against storm, but we have Veil of Summer and 6-8 discard spells to shore up the Storm matchup. We have Karakas for Show and Tell plus 6-8 tutors for it in the maindeck. EDIT: Veil of Summer hoses Thassa's Oracle, too...so it's even good against Doomsday/Oops.
More importantly than the combo matchups, Depths needs to think about how to deal with Moon Stompy again. And the dreaded terror Nic Fit!!!
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
There is an excellent deep analysis (boshnroll video series) on lands and depths. The creator or rainbow depths states that submerge isn’t really a problem for gb depths.
It’s mostly because current combo decks like doomsday and TES are very resistant to discard but are weak to stifle and fluster.
Stifle beat oracle... how does veil beat oops???
You get hexproof from blue and black...Thassa's Oracle is blue. Maybe I'm way behind the times, but I thought Oracle was the win condition of choice with Oops.
I've been meaning to watch the Boshnroll deep analysis on Depths/Lands. Good shoutout, I'll listen to it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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