[Deck] Turbo Depths

[MBSegal]

I think it's been said already, likely by me but shardless is one of the easier matchups we have. Generally, unless they get nut draws you'll crush them. Nut draws happen when playing against any deck and its not something you should worry about or modify your deck for. Sometimes you just get that unlucky. It's the reason no match is 100%-0%. In my experiences 80-90% win rate vs a deck is about as high as you get. Even miracles can steal some games against its worst matchup (12 post).

It has also been said multiple times by me (and from others anecdotally) that they lose to Shardless more than they do other fair decks. I think they do not need a nut draw to beat us, just a strong opening. I have played this deck in 4 tournaments that were at least 6 rounds and a number of MTGO leagues and have gone about even with Shardless/Jund/DeadguyAle-ish (6-3). The only decks I have performed worse against are Blood Moon Stompy (0-2 at GP Chiba) and Storm (1-2 overall). I am not saying they are favored, but I wouldn't put it in the column of 65%+ and as such I want to have sideboard cards to improve that match up. If you disagree, that's fine. Just because you announce a match up is 80%, I don't believe it lol

[Negator77']

Played a Legacy Invitational in which the 18 best players of my region were competing to win the prestigious title.

I am sorry to report I lost my win and in to Shardless BUG. My other loss was also against Shardless BUG. :(
In my first loss my hands just never came together. In my win and in I played around Wasteland in the 1st game and he Lilianed me. Then in the second game I played around Liliana and he Wastelanded me, sad times even moreso considering he only played 1 Wasteland, he told me after the match.
Previously I had been crushing this matchup and losing two times felt bad.

Imo, the best way to approach the match-up is to usually not play around Wasteland unless you have full or close to full information (via discard) and that is the right call. They generally aren't fast enough to just be able to kill you while sitting behind a Wasteland. You will usually have the time to beat a Wasteland if they have it. If you play around Wasteland and get your token killed by a walker in the process, that is much harder to come back from. If they ever tap below where their planeswalkers can be cast that turn (for an agent, goyf, whatever), then of course go off in response. Many versions don't even run the full set of Wastelands, varying from list to list with three being a number I've seen frequently. In this case, you changed your approach between games and were punished both times.. That is just bad luck, especially considering he only ran one copy of Wasteland.

It has also been said multiple times by me (and from others anecdotally) that they lose to Shardless more than they do other fair decks. I think they do not need a nut draw to beat us, just a strong opening. I have played this deck in 4 tournaments that were at least 6 rounds and a number of MTGO leagues and have gone about even with Shardless/Jund/DeadguyAle-ish (6-3). The only decks I have performed worse against are Blood Moon Stompy (0-2 at GP Chiba) and Storm (1-2 overall). I am not saying they are favored, but I wouldn't put it in the column of 65%+ and as such I want to have sideboard cards to improve that match up. If you disagree, that's fine. Just because you announce a match up is 80%, I don't believe it lol

Is that a typo, because 6-3 seems decent? That's a pretty small sample size to truly evaluate a match-up.

[jdmdave]

First, after losing to shardless in the final round of a 4-1 league run, I'm not so sure its the easiest matchup in the world.

Situation

It's your turn 3 on the draw and you have thespian+urborg+depths out. You duressed your opponent on turn 1 and know between land drops/plays that they have 2 lands, 1 abrupt decay, and 1 tarmogoyf in hand. You have nothing relevant in hand.

Do You:

* Play around Liliana/Jace and wait until their EOT to go off
* Jam it and play around wasteland

I did the former and got rekt by a wasteland, but I've also done the later and also lost. He ripped a shardless into ancestral into wasteland.

Second, have we nailed down a definitive anti-UR/Grixis/4C delver plan?

[DNSolver]

Once he casts Shardless agent on turn 3-4 or whatever, he can no longer cast a planeswalker. Then you combo in response to the ancestral recall and beat Wasteland.

[Negator77']

First, after losing to shardless in the final round of a 4-1 league run, I'm not so sure its the easiest matchup in the world.

Situation

It's your turn 3 on the draw and you have thespian+urborg+depths out. You duressed your opponent on turn 1 and know between land drops/plays that they have 2 lands, 1 abrupt decay, and 1 tarmogoyf in hand. You have nothing relevant in hand.

Do You:

* Play around Liliana/Jace and wait until their EOT to go off
* Jam it and play around wasteland

I did the former and got rekt by a wasteland, but I've also done the later and also lost. He ripped a shardless into ancestral into wasteland.

In the example where he ripped Shardless into ancestral into Wasteland, making the token with the ancestral on the stack is usually a good play.... unless your opponent had six available mana that turn to play both the Shardless Agent and a Liliana after that (unlikely unless they already broke up your combo once).

In the first scenario, my two cents is to wait in that spot. They have a similar # of walkers and wastelands depending on the list, but recovering from the walker is a steeper climb. If they have wasteland there, they cant activate it while you have the combo up... That leaves you outs of drawing Waste/Ghost Quarter or crop rotation (etc) to win and also pseudo ports them every turn in the interim since they can never tap the wasteland of they likely lose on the spot barring other interaction. You are also live to just drawing the combo again if you have to eventually let them 2 for 1 you. Basically, the worst case scenario if you walk into the walker (need full combo #2) also works even if you wait. Waiting also gives you the option of EOT copying their wasteland with stage to see it they want to use it. If they don't, you are live to draw another stage or way to find a stage. If they do, you are live to draw or find whatever land they hit. So you are left with more options/outs by waiting is my position.... ya know, on top of just winning the game outright if they have a walker or neither.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, just realized that. Shouldn't play magic when sleep deprived. What is the wasteland/PW split in typical shardless lists? 4/3?

I have a major cash tourney coming up and will report back. What are your guys preferred post-board plans vs the various delver variants?

[DNSolver]

I'm planning on spending some of the time I have off from school making a few Youtube videos of Depths gameplay, perhaps a little live streaming. I will post links sometime later this week once I have quiet time to record, but they will be on my Youtube channel under my same username. Right now there's just Starcraft content from several years ago...

Anyway, I hope people are excited for this.

Regarding post-board vs. Delver:

-1 Bog
-3 Not of This World
-1 Duress?

+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pithing Needle

Needles name Wasteland always. Even the 2nd Needle - plenty of weird Abrupt Decays flying around in Delver decks right now. Discard spells take creatures to buy time (usually if only 1 creature), take counterspells / Stifles if our hand isn't redundant, and otherwise take random bolts.

[Negator77']

Yeah, just realized that. Shouldn't play magic when sleep deprived. What is the wasteland/PW split in typical shardless lists? 4/3?

I have a major cash tourney coming up and will report back. What are your guys preferred post-board plans vs the various delver variants?

I keep the boarding vs Delver to a minimum. From your list, the only cards I'd bring in are the 4th Needle and the two Abrupt Decays to fight any Needles, move a flier out of the way, or blunt their clock. NOTW can most likely be shaved since the the black delver decks have been straying away from bounce and towards Diabolic Edict.

UR delver is different since they are often sans Wasteland. Shave Needles in that scenario instead since they are more likely to have bounce and/or Blood Moon

3/3 is probably the most common split. I've seen 4 Wastes plenty of times, but have seen 4 walkers plenty too. I'd expect three wastes, 2 Lily, 1 Jace on average.

[jdmdave]

Good to hear on the video content.

Regarding delver, I think I'm going to play with my GP Chiba sideboard rather than the emrakul plan, although I'm kind of lukewarm on crucible and toxic deluge these days. The former can't be tutored for and the latter is kind of win more in +matchups.

* UR - No wastelands, so we just need to play around submerge since they are a linear burn deck.
* Grixis - Wastelands. Need Needles
* 4c- Watelands. Need Needles

I don't think you need the not of this worlds since you can (a) discard the submerge & (b) not fetch forests.

Here are my consolidated match results from GP Chiba + last 3 Legacy tourneys

* Turbo Blood Moon decks (1-2) <- fuck turn 1 blood moon
* Eldrazi (6-1) <- Double Mimic + TKS + Smasher
* Miracles (3-0)
* DNT (1-1)
* Omnitell (1-0)
* Sneak and Show (2-0)
* Grixis/4c Delver (4-2) <- Wasteland heavy tempo draws
* UR Delver (1-0)
* Burn (2-1) <- Lost to a pro in final rounds of GP Chiba who drew an insane price/fireblast/bolt/bolt/bolt type hand
* Merfolk (2-0)
* Shardless (1-2) <- Gambled on the wrong end of the wasteland vs liliana mini-game
* Reanimator (1-0)
* Cloudpost (2-0)
* Painter (0-1) <- fuck turn 1 blood moon

[hymnyou]

Running 2 Libraries, I feel like I have less of a problem with Shardless and Miracles than what I read in here. Miracles fears Library on board, a lot- they lose control. You just run over Shardless with library out. 2 Library has been good for me- even if you get the rare occurance of having 2 in play, stacking the triggers works well in this deck with shuffle effects, and you can always dig a little deeper with life loss stacking two library triggers. The Maritocracy build really benefits from Library since it has a cannonball effect to it, I have even played 3 in my deck and haven't been mad at it. Library usually gets countered, destroyed or discarded so having a extra can be essential for this deck. Lots of decks see this as enemy #1. No brainstorm, no top, no bob and dumping your hands is risky with only one Library in your deck when facing resilient decks.

[ComplexPants]

Looking forward to the videos DNSolver. I am going to be testing some Mana Web Emrakul boards to see what happens. I feel really in impressed by Sphere. I have actually yet to side it in and have any effect. Still haven't played against ANT or Reanimator yet.


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[jdmdave]

Sphere is a beating vs reanimator, storm, and shardless and really helps the miracles matchup. Wouldn't ever cut it.

[Lio]

I keep the boarding vs Delver to a minimum. From your list, the only cards I'd bring in are the 4th Needle and the two Abrupt Decays to fight any Needles, move a flier out of the way, or blunt their clock. NOTW can most likely be shaved since the the black delver decks have been straying away from bounce and towards Diabolic Edict.

UR delver is different since they are often sans Wasteland. Shave Needles in that scenario instead since they are more likely to have bounce and/or Blood Moon

3/3 is probably the most common split. I've seen 4 Wastes plenty of times, but have seen 4 walkers plenty too. I'd expect three wastes, 2 Lily, 1 Jace on average.

Don't you board in Sphere of Resistence rather than (or in addition to) Abrupt Decay vs Delvers (especially UR)?

[jdmdave]

I board in sphere + decay vs UR, but don't bring it in vs any of the wasteland delver decks.

[DNSolver]

Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmv...4yzPPlE5fthNek

[apple713]

Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmv...4yzPPlE5fthNek

Great stuff. I added it to the primer.


Also, if people want stuff added to primer or have suggestions for it please let me know.

[ComplexPants]

Great. Now everyone will know our secrets....

Great job DNSolver. Thanks for doing it!


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[Motto82]

As for the tips regarding the BUG Shardless matchup. I have mulled over all the responses and I'll try and ignore the Wastelands mostly for now (when I am short of a Needle), as Liliana is indeed more backbreaking. In my case, I responded to Brainstorm to make a token and he then found Lili as his 3rd card. I had to pull the trigger by casting Crop Rotation and then got wrecked :P I knew at that point he had FoW + Brainstorm as his other blue card so when he brainstormed, I pulled the trigger to reliably resolve the C.R.
Anyway - I am learning a lot here as to how to play the deck and therefore really hyped reading DNSolver has just posted the link to his recordings.

Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmv...4yzPPlE5fthNek

I'll be watching it tonight after I return from my son's Lantern Parade. Do you intend to make more of these?

[apple713]

Against decks with wasteland i always hold my crop rotations to use for when they activate wasteland. I realize while it seemed intuitive to me, not everyone might play that way. It slows down the deck but not really because you dont have to worry about wasteland anymore. Effectively it adds 1 green mana to the cost of the combo.

[Claymore]

If they activate properly, it will still set you down 3 cards (Stage/Hexmage, Depths, Crop). Wasteland targeting Depths as the Marit Lage trigger is resolving and you're back to square negative 1.

-> After re-reading, I think you're just talking about using Crop Rotation in general...so that's a good idea, to just preemptively hold Crops until they fire off a Wasteland randomly.

It's probably still better to play around Liliana/Jace instead of Wasteland, since it does set them down 1 mana and it's easier to break a stalemate with Ghost Quarter/Needle rather than spend however many turns/resources getting your pieces back on board.

Against a blind opponent, on the play, and you have a possible turn 2 or 3 Lage, with only Needle as your interaction, do you play the Needle on Wasteland or just hold it for later?

Also looking forward to the videos.