[Deck] Turbo Depths

[Ruckusmh]

I saw a bug list 5-0 today, is the consensus that those lists are worse? Difference in matchups?

[Negator77']

Lines of play assuming no protection/discard vs Wasteland decks:
* Merfolk - Run out Marit Lage on your turn (Yes Wasteland, No on the rest)

Not sure I agree with that line against Merfolk, especially post board. It's hasn't been a common match-up in quite some time, but I have seen everything from multiple Phantasmal Images to Gilded Drake from them that could make jamming main phase really bad.... especially the Drake. If you know you can resolve Hexmage or cast Decay post combo, then Image isn't a card to worry about though. Merfolk versions often differ in the number of wastelands they run too. I've seen every number from none to four.

I saw a bug list 5-0 today, is the consensus that those lists are worse? Difference in matchups?

The consensus is that straight BG is the way to go based on # of players who run that version. I personally disagree, but am biased obviously. The usual solid advice given in this thread is to try any/all versions you think could be good and decide which you think is better.

[DNSolver]

BUG list plays very differently I imagine. Not having fast mana changes a lot of matchups.

Went 5-0 tonight *in paper* at my LGS. Played 3 Into the North and Snow basics over my 3 Expedition Map.

R1: Budget deck 2-0

R2: Bant + black Stoneblade 2-1 - this guy played his Wastelands and Stifles very aggressively and I lost G2 to not drawing enough lands. Felt pretty bad. G1 and G3 were pretty easy though.

R3: BR Reanimator 2-0 - won the die roll G1, G2 I keep Hexmage, Duress, Chalice, ESG, Verdant, Depths, scry Urborg to the top. I needed to threaten combo on turn 2 and it's fast enough against his double discard draw taking my Duress and Chalice on turn 1.

R4: Sneak and Show (traditional) 2-0 - My opponent mis-boarded a bit but was familiar with my deck. G1 we both mulligan and I'm a turn faster to find what I need despite losing the die roll - take that, blue cards! G2 my opponent misplays by letting me resolve a Hexmage and I play Depths from hand. I still had a lot of good cards left in my hand so I am confident I would have won the game. Sideboarding was +1 Needle +3 Decay +4 Chalice +3 Surgical +1 Karakas for -4 Petal -4 ESG -3 Into the North -1 Bojuka Bog

R5: BUG Landstill 2-0 not much to say here, outraced his manlands in G2 by a timely green mana source draw.

Lost 1 game on the night. Into the North was fine and made the deck incrementally faster due to not costing essentially 3 mana to get a land. I definitely am NOT cutting a green land for another Urborg though, the deck needs its green lands with Into the North instead of Map.

[Doneval]

Lost 1 game on the night. Into the North was fine and made the deck incrementally faster due to not costing essentially 3 mana to get a land. I definitely am NOT cutting a green land for another Urborg though, the deck needs its green lands with Into the North instead of Map.

Congrats and thanks for the mini-report. I'll have to try running more Into the North and see how it goes.

When you say you're not adding another Urborg, how many are you running in your version? 3 like most lists?

[DNSolver]

List from above post:

4 Dark Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
2 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Snow-Covered Basics
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

SB:
3 Surgical
4 Chalice
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Pithing Needle

[AmokPL]

List from above post:

4 Dark Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
2 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Snow-Covered Basics
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

SB:
3 Surgical
4 Chalice
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Pithing Needle

Looks really solid but why that Marsh instead of third Bayou? I kind of dislike Maps as well, might want to try that 3 ItN approach?

[jdmdave]

Marsh dodges submerge. Also not a fan of 3x Urborg, 4x is non-negotiable for me.

I'll be @ Hareruya next Tuesday doing testing for a local 10k USD Chinese legacy tournament on the 6th. Will report back.

[AmokPL]

Marsh dodges submerge.

as a one off? also not searchable by fetches but, whatever suits you.

I am testing 4 Urborgs now and I will probably keep them. Tired of colorless hands.

Next in line for testing - 4 main Needles (happy to get them in most matchups, plus gives us an extra slot in sb) and 2 Sylvan Libraries (as suggested by Evan).

[jdmdave]

I've long run a 3-5 split of fastlands vs fetches+bayou+basics. Works well.

I'm also going to attend on of Hareruya's Holiday tournaments next tuesday, will do a thorough report.

[DNSolver]

Stuck between 2 decks for GP Louisville: this and BR Griselbrand.

I really like how Depths rolls Delver and Eldrazi pretty hard while having game against most BS decks that I could encounter in the first few rounds due to the discard spells and semi-fast combo.

Considering a major sideboard change to drastically improve Miracles and possibly Stoneblade matchups:

Old sideboard:
3 Surgical
4 Decay
4 Chalice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul the Promised End

New sideboard:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost / Vesuva or a mix of the two cards
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abrupt Decay? Pretty sure we need these.

I think that the Death and Taxes matchup will remain reasonable, yet not great. Some combo matchups (such as Reanimator) will suffer from no Surgicals, and storm from no Chalices. Lands might suck a bit more too without Surgicals, but hopefully Pithing Needles can get there? Not sure if this sideboard plan would work against Lands... Kind of a weird plan, but I think we need 8 posts + 4 Stages to maintain a critical mass of posts. Wondering if the people playing the Cabal Coffers -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn plan or similar plans would chime in.

If anyone plays Miracles and would like to test this plan on Cockatrice over the next week or so, I would be down. Message me.

[ClimbGneiss]

Stuck between 2 decks for GP Louisville: this and BR Griselbrand.

I really like how Depths rolls Delver and Eldrazi pretty hard while having game against most BS decks that I could encounter in the first few rounds due to the discard spells and semi-fast combo.

Considering a major sideboard change to drastically improve Miracles and possibly Stoneblade matchups:

Old sideboard:
3 Surgical
4 Decay
4 Chalice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul the Promised End

New sideboard:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost / Vesuva or a mix of the two cards
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abrupt Decay? Pretty sure we need these.

I think that the Death and Taxes matchup will remain reasonable, yet not great. Some combo matchups (such as Reanimator) will suffer from no Surgicals, and storm from no Chalices. Lands might suck a bit more too without Surgicals, but hopefully Pithing Needles can get there? Not sure if this sideboard plan would work against Lands... Kind of a weird plan, but I think we need 8 posts + 4 Stages to maintain a critical mass of posts. Wondering if the people playing the Cabal Coffers -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn plan or similar plans would chime in.

If anyone plays Miracles and would like to test this plan on Cockatrice over the next week or so, I would be down. Message me.

Not that I'm an expert, but when playing lands and testing it vs blade variants, chalice of the Void has been very impressive when playing it on 1. Surgical and Swords being what they are, it feels very important.

[Doneval]

Speaking of sideboards, I've only played the deck a little bit so far, but I was extremely unimpressed with Chalice against Delver.

Maybe it was a mistake sideboarding it in (although as a Delver player, I know how backbreaking it can be). Still, a couple of games I got my Chalice on one on turn one, and then proceeded to draw Needle, hand disruption, and Crop Rotation :-(

How are people sideboarding against delver? I think I would have been better off with the needles and no Chalice.

[Negator77']

Speaking of sideboards, I've only played the deck a little bit so far, but I was extremely unimpressed with Chalice against Delver.

Maybe it was a mistake sideboarding it in (although as a Delver player, I know how backbreaking it can be). Still, a couple of games I got my Chalice on one on turn one, and then proceeded to draw Needle, hand disruption, and Crop Rotation :-(

How are people sideboarding against delver? I think I would have been better off with the needles and no Chalice.

Personally, I've always been in the "minimal boarding required" camp against Delver. Up to 4 Needles and some # of Decays since they are useful against their main early clock and if they bring in Needle(s) as well.

[Doneval]

Personally, I've always been in the "minimal boarding required" camp against Delver. Up to 4 Needles and some # of Decays since they are useful against their main early clock and if they bring in Needle(s) as well.

Do you still run 4 Chalices in the sideboard then? If you're not bringing them in against Delver, then your only good target is Storm, right? 4 slots just for that seems overkill.

[Negator77']

Do you still run 4 Chalices in the sideboard then? If you're not bringing them in against Delver, then your only good target is Storm, right? 4 slots just for that seems overkill.

I do not run chalices, but the players who do run them primarily for certain combo match-ups and Miracles. Cutting off the cantrips, Swords and subsequent tops is big game against Miracles.... not to mention limiting any top activations to one shots if any snuck into play barring an answer to the chalice.

The delver match-ups always felt favorable enough to not require additional cards. Sticking with consistency, Needles, and some Decays is my opinion on the MU.

[ComplexPants]

I do not run chalices, but the players who do run them primarily for certain combo match-ups and Miracles. Cutting off the cantrips, Swords and subsequent tops is big game against Miracles.... not to mention limiting any top activations to one shots if any snuck into play barring an answer to the chalice.

The delver match-ups always felt favorable enough to not require additional cards. Sticking with consistency, Needles, and some Decays is my opinion on the MU.

Totally agree with negator on this one. Chalices are for storm, miracles and maybe BR reanimator on the play (DNSolver please correct me on this). However, I would say miracles is the biggest reason to play chalice. Some of us are experimenting with other answers to miracles (mana web, emrakul packages, winter orb) but right now I would say chalice is the default plan.

[TonyTaormina]

Hello all!

New to the deck, been testing it out for a few months now and am very happy with results. I've topped a lot of local events / fnm stuff and just been really happy with my matchups and the general resiliency of the deck. I've had a few troublesome decks and cards that seem to be difficult to play around and was just wanting some feedback from you guys.

Fetches / urborgs and mana fixing
In game two a lot of opponents needle / shut off thespian stage really quick and then while trying to piece together hexmage seems sometimes it's really hard to get double black and or just get the right mana together while combating your opponents routes to victory. Any thoughts on the correct amount of urborgs / fetchlands? I'm currently on 4 fetches and 3 urborg

Surgical extraction
When your opponent surgicals your depths it is pretty much a blowout I've quickly found; I guess the best option is to do one of these??- 1 surgical your own depths and fail to find, 2 noxious revival it back on top?, 3 play cards like coffin purge since it's pretty good against other decks?, 4 crop rotate and bajuka bog yourself? I guess I just need to play around it better.

Crucible of worlds
I agree that this card is amazing when you actually draw it in game 2/3 but there have been situations where I really need it and never see it or it show up to the party and just doesn't really change the board state; a lot of times I feel like I'm tapping out to play it then they just blow me out in the next few turns; is it bad to run 2 in side or are only a few ppl seeing results with COW?

Delver decks
I've yet to beat delver; I mainly speak of 4 color but the other variants have been giving me a run for my money lately and I'm just not really sure what the best game plan is here; it's been said that chalice is really good but the timing of chalice on one and other factors just seem that the good delver players play around and aren't phased by it. I mean they just counter it and then I've also just felt that chalice is really clunky in this matchup. Also lots of my losses to delver have basically been them probing me then realizing they need to go wide v quickly. So when they go wide I'm thinking oh I'll just toxic deluge - and it gets countered; idk also in the variant matchups they just chump with flipped delver and strategize around merit token in play. Any advice / approches to playing this matchup would be helpful.

Sideboarding in general
I've read through and seen a lot of you guys plan for various matchups but in general just seems hard to figure out what to trim. Seems to me depending on the matchups you have hand hate, land tutor, and sprit guides / lotus petals to trim from; what are some thoughts on what's needed or is it best to generally just cut a little from all categories? I know it depends on the matchup but honestly it's hard to decide as all three of these categories of the main board seem super useful in games 2 and three...

Thanks for any input!

[DNSolver]

I bring in Chalice against BR Reanimator play or draw. It's important to shut down their one-drops in the matchup: Entomb is a nightmare because a) it's one way to thwart a Bojuka Bog, and b) it finds Tidespout Tyrant to kill us. Also, if they get Griselbrand it's good to shut off them chaining into another creature to apply too much pressure, so Chalice on zero or one can stop Lotus Petals or Dark Rituals.

Tried some more testing with various Emrakul sideboard plans.

1) The 4-8 post plan uses up too many slots. We start losing matchups that should be byes.

2) In addition to trashing Miracles, the Cabal Coffers + Eye of Ugin plan felt fine against Stoneblade in my testing today. It's important to Needle Wasteland or have Stage and plenty of mana before playing either combo piece though (yikes! that would be bayud)

3) Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the real deal. Forget the Promised End crap.

The only question I'm considering is what to cut to make room for the 3rd slot in my sideboard (I now need to cram a Cabal Coffers in the board). Potential cuts:
-the 4th Needle
-Karakas (though I think this is still good with the Emrakul plan to protect me from Cliques and take infinite turns, and necessary vs. Death and Taxes to deal with Mangara)
-down to 2 Surgicals (not likely...)
-down to 3 Chalices (...hmmmmm probably not)
-down to 3 Decays (too useful in so many matchups, including Miracles)

So I think the 4th Needle will be going unless someone can make a case for another card.

Edit: ninja'd by a sideboarding advice question. My answer:

Against decks that can easily answer your combo, you want to fill your deck with good cards and trim speed when you can. Examples of these matchups are Miracles, Stoneblade, and perhaps Death and Taxes. Therefore, you can cut up to 8 fast mana to make room for good sideboard cards.

Against Delver decks, you board in Decays to take care of Needles or buy time against their creatures. Other than that, Needle on Wasteland and/or a reasonable hand should lock up two wins in the matchup.

Against combo decks, some protection (such as Pithing Needle or Not of This World) can be trimmed because usually they can't interact with our token favorably. As an example, against Storm, Pithing Needle does nothing against them, and Not of This World is Not worthwile (heh heh). Therefore, you can cut those 6 or so cards for Chalices and Surgicals.

The utility lands (Ghost Quarter, Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe) can be cut in the matchups where they do NOTHING. If they have any possible relevant application, I leave them in.

Duress can be cut in matchups where you want to take creatures. Duress can also be cut on the draw against fair decks that play out their relevant cards on the first few turns (Delver, Shardless, etc.).

If you're playing Into the North, you can cut it if you still have more cards to bring in. It's a bit clunky vs. Wasteland->Surgical Depths plays.

The above tips are general points. The deck is very flexible and many sideboarding plans are possible for each matchup. Also keep in mind that this is Legacy - part of learning your deck is learning how to sideboard and evaluate card choices post-board. Don't be too worried about getting it wrong a few times - the best way to get better at Legacy is by playing lots of Legacy. That's why I bought into Magic Online.

[studderingdave]

played my first games with depths in a local event. went 1-2 winning against burn and losing to BR reanimator and merfolk. I would have won against merfolk if i set needle on wasteland and not aether vial, newb mistake. Dan Miller always hits me up for games and despite my newness to the deck I did manage to beat him in two test games (no sideboarding). I really like how the deck can rebuild quickly and the hand hate really helps out.

running:

4 Petal
3 needle
4 ESG
4 hexmage
1 library
4 crop rotation
3 NotW
3 Bayou
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Bog
4 depths
1 GQ
1 steppe
1 SC forest
1 SC swamp
4 stage
4 urborg
4 duress
2 into the north
4 scrying
4 thoughtseize

SB

4 sphere
1 emrakul, aeons torn
3 abrupt decay
3 extraction
1 cabal coffers
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
1 drownyard

i am working on the catacombs and chalices, but its a bad time of the year for spare funds. Deck ran pretty smoothly without but i want to have the options.

[DNSolver]

You don't need a Nephalia Drownyard if you're running the Emrakul plan in the sideboard like you are.