[Deck] Chalice of the Dark Order

[Zombie]

I have to agree with Mr. Killjoy here: This thing looks like an absolute pile, and there's not a snowball's chance in Hell that it actually has positive matchups against most of the field.

You can look at my approach this way and it might make more sense

Chalice is so strong right now but are weak to itself due to lack of consistency: +GSZ
Sylvan plug plays chalice and GSZ but plays conditional cards: -choke, -trinisphere
make chalice reliably castable t1: + ancient tomb + crop rotation
Develop sure fire win condition: +8 post +eldrazi +titans
12 post's weakness are combo decks, and other fast aggro decks: +NO, +ruric
How can i accelerate mana and get other added benefits: +Dryad arbor, +veteran explorer +courser, +KOTR

The reason Plug is consistent is because it doesn't play that many Sol lands and has abandoned the idea of forcing the T1 Chalice/Thorn. As a result it gets many fetches for DRS food and as shuffle effects for Library. It doesn't run "please kill me" cards like Crop Rotation. The fetches and 3DRS+4GSZ give abundant colored mana for his GG and GB bombs and actual removal for Delvers. The ground pounders will die to your ground pounders anyway.

If you look at Lejay's choice of bombs, they're 4cc-5cc, aka stuff you can reasonably cast/GSZ with a single Sol land or a couple manadorks no sweat. You don't need to go Eldrazi big to win surefire, simple Obstinate Baloths are way too big for most of the meta. The lifegain easily compensates for lack of Glimmerposts.

The extra Tombs etc. cut into your colored mana, which cuts into your GSZ for Arbor, further cutting into your colored mana. DRS instead of Explorer is much more guaranteed to work.

NO as a main anti combo card is fucking horrendous. NO=>Ruric is used in Elves because Elves' main plan is NO=>Hoofing you Turn3. Ruric is not there as a main plan, but as a way to turn Turn 2 or awkward Turn3 NOs that Elves can realistically get into de facto kills, basically upping the fundamental turn of the deck by a lot. It's there as convenience, not as a plan you incorporate for combo. And yeah, Ruric wins vs. many combo decks. The catch? You have to do it fast. Which means you want 2GG Turn 2 or Turn 3 WITH a green creature on the field and your pile just doesn't do it with any kind of consistency, period. It might do it if you had consistent T1 mana dorks, but you don't. So the plan is just plain bad.If you're running an Explorer shell and want game vs. combo, Therapy should be your first goto option without a shadow of a doubt. Because it actually does something fast while advancing your own gameplan.

Courser again suffers from GG in the casting cost, wanting to land early, and your early colored production being shite.

You have a bunch of cool, good cards. You don't have a plan. You need one. Get one.

[Fatal]

I also agree with Zombie - running so many 2-for-1 cards:
- Crop
- NO
- Mox
with so many desynergies - Crop <-> Chalice, Veteran <-> Chalice, mean your hand will be blanked very fast. Without any targets your sylvan library shouldn't stand enough long to get a value from it.
Add to this no real removal mean any tempo deck will just eat you.

I also not sure about your mana base -adding Sol lands is wrong IMO - sure it bring you very nice start as turn 1 chalice, but with so little colored sources you would have problems with GG in costs, without real sacrafice outlet you can't say that veteran will resolve and trigger.
8 colored mana source + 2 moxes is quite little - don't count dryad - it won't survive summoning sickness. Similar I add to my B/G Post list Solemn's as a fixer and additonal ramp/card advantage to stabilize mana base and getting more bodies to survive to casting bombs, don't forgot that my list was running 7 removal, 3 uncounterable, 4 Deeds which was always to counter spell + 2 Karns as answer to problematic permanents as humility/plainswalkers etc..

Good question is what you want to sacrafice via Natural Order ? Since you running really low count of creatures which you can cast before turn 4:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Dryad Arbors

That's really low count. Interesting how your tests vs any tempo/tempo-control decks ? It looks abyssal but maybe I'm wrong, since you can't attack his hand you must overload with threads (like Maverick) but with so many 2-for-1 your hand is probably very fast ending.

IMO you should consider more mana dorks and some defensive creatures - maybe goyfs (looks rather bad without any way to feed them) if you want to support Natural Order, or go other route like ramp by lands.

[Lemnear]

Guys, I can imagine stuff like Exploration, Explore and Ancient Stirrings providing a decent option for ramp and cardselection. Maybe even dredging Posts/Vesuvas with Loam and playing two lands a turn can provide a base for cardadvantage and ramp which is worthwile. Who knows.

[Fatal]

Tested Loam road - its good if you don't run Eldrazi - with them - its senseless.

Explore works not bad - but you must run minimum 24+ Lands to be consistant (also tested), anyway it's most time first card to cut.

[apple713]

My english as my third language (not counting bavarian), must be pretty bad if I have to write three fucking times that I tested the crappy abdomination you call a manabase and you still claim I didn't test it because I keep hinting on flaws between running GW cards, Cloudpost manabase but no proper way to fix the mana or draws.

Hard to believe that I seriously have to outline that you might have to switch to other disruption tools than Chalice if you run cantrips. I had hoped that is comprehendable and obvious that we then might want to Ponder about Thorn/FoW/Trinisphere instead, but yeah

You still don't get that there is a difference between Titan for double green or single colored mana spells like Treasure Crusie which you can cast off Post-mana to draw into your bombs if your opponent doesn't attack your hand and board, but becomes cheaper to cast if your opponent disrupts you and helps to recover fom Hymn or Wasteland. It's basically a win-win card in this shell, but you obviously do not bother thinking about options or problems, right?

i really don't know what you want. It sounds like you just need to play traditional 12 post... You like the blue cantrips, you don't like chalice, you think S&T is superior. Either you are a biased blue player or a troll. You have literally shot down every card and aspect of the deck. If you feel so strongly against this deck why are you even in this thread? I don't come to the storm thread and trash that deck even though i think its a POS because there are better combo decks available.

The only semi useful comment that you have made in an entire page of comments is reminded me to test a handful of SFM with Batterskulls to blow out delver decks from the life gain.

I have to agree with Mr. Killjoy here: This thing looks like an absolute pile, and there's not a snowball's chance in Hell that it actually has positive matchups against most of the field.

The reason Plug is consistent is because it doesn't play that many Sol lands and has abandoned the idea of forcing the T1 Chalice/Thorn. As a result it gets many fetches for DRS food and as shuffle effects for Library. It doesn't run "please kill me" cards like Crop Rotation. The fetches and 3DRS+4GSZ give abundant colored mana for his GG and GB bombs and actual removal for Delvers. The ground pounders will die to your ground pounders anyway.

i agree it looks like a pile, there’s no denying that, but it plays differently. This isn't belcher, you can’t goldfish it and say “ok i got it its a POS.” Sylvan plug looks like a pile also, who plays obstinate baloth, other than that deck? No one, because the card is actually pretty bad. If you look at what ledgy has done, he’s cut the number of baloths over his testing. Baloth dies to batterskull, goyf, primtimes, doesn't block delvers, doesn't have trample, its literally good for nothing. siege rhino is better in every way.

DRS isn't a great addition. getting 1 mana conditionally isn't great. its only 1 mana. I need a green mana to cast it anyways. The deck is 99% mono green. there are only 2 cards that are white. DRS does nothing against delver decks since he gets killed by ALL of their removal. Veteran explorer at least gets me lands against those decks and forces them to waste removal or attack into it. even if i have a chalice out, i can gsz into him.

Dont get me started on please kill me cards. Choke and Trinisphere are dead in so many matches. Choke is good if you are ahead and defiantly shitty when you are behind. Both suck in multiples. Some lists run 4 main when 3 is more than enough.

If you look at Lejay's choice of bombs, they're 4cc-5cc, aka stuff you can reasonably cast/GSZ with a single Sol land or a couple manadorks no sweat. You don't need to go Eldrazi big to win surefire, simple Obstinate Baloths are way too big for most of the meta. The lifegain easily compensates for lack of Glimmerposts.

The extra Tombs etc. cut into your colored mana, which cuts into your GSZ for Arbor, further cutting into your colored mana. DRS instead of Explorer is much more guaranteed to work.

Looking at green’s options for 3/4/5 CMC creatures, its pitiful that other colors have better creatures. Green should have the clear winners but it doesnt. Titania is easily removed buy almost every removal. Good against bug cause its out of decay’s range.

previous iterations of the deck have played DRS and he gets cut every time because i almost never want him. This comes from playing experience. I’ve added him many times and cut him many times as I change builds and such. If I had trouble getting colored mana he might be worth it but i dont.

you are right, you don’t need eldrazi to win, but id rather take 2 hits from a baloth, then cast my titan and just completely blow out sylvan plug 1 turn later after my posts allow me to stabilize and cast that eldrazi. Sylvan plug is designed to be heavily geared against delver decks and it does well against them. it does poorly against many other decks, like elves, non blue decks, and ANYTHING with bigger threats over cmc 3 because it cant abrupt decay them.

IDK what extra tombs you think I'm running but I only have 4 and lejay runs at least three but most play a set of 4.

NO as a main anti combo card is fucking horrendous. NO=>Ruric is used in Elves because Elves' main plan is NO=>Hoofing you Turn3. Ruric is not there as a main plan, but as a way to turn Turn 2 or awkward Turn3 NOs that Elves can realistically get into de facto kills, basically upping the fundamental turn of the deck by a lot. It's there as convenience, not as a plan you incorporate for combo. And yeah, Ruric wins vs. many combo decks. The catch? You have to do it fast. Which means you want 2GG Turn 2 or Turn 3 WITH a green creature on the field and your pile just doesn't do it with any kind of consistency, period. It might do it if you had consistent T1 mana dorks, but you don't. So the plan is just plain bad.If you're running an Explorer shell and want game vs. combo, Therapy should be your first goto option without a shadow of a doubt. Because it actually does something fast while advancing your own gameplan.

Courser again suffers from GG in the casting cost, wanting to land early, and your early colored production being shite.

You have a bunch of cool, good cards. You don't have a plan. You need one. Get one.

NO as a main anti combo card does seem weak, but its not anti combo, its actually a win con. NO into progenitus dominates a lot of decks if its early enough such as D&T, Merfolk, and other fair decks. NO into ruric dominates a different group of decks and hes also castable, and a GSZ target.

In addition to NO, you have Chalice of the void. Post board you have Teeg, and Trinisphere. The only game I got wrecked when playing storm is when he the opponent hurkyll recalled and thats not common SB card for them.

I’ve addressed cabal therapy in previous posts. Its really terrible without gitaxian probe.

The plan is to play what the deck gives you…Ultimately you are trying to get titan into play or eldrazi mana unless you get NO then maybe you go progenitus / Ruric depending on matches, its fairly simple plan.

I also agree with Zombie - running so many 2-for-1 cards:
- Crop
- NO
- Mox
with so many desynergies - Crop <-> Chalice, Veteran <-> Chalice, mean your hand will be blanked very fast. Without any targets your sylvan library shouldn't stand enough long to get a value from it.
Add to this no real removal mean any tempo deck will just eat you.

I also not sure about your mana base -adding Sol lands is wrong IMO - sure it bring you very nice start as turn 1 chalice, but with so little colored sources you would have problems with GG in costs, without real sacrafice outlet you can't say that veteran will resolve and trigger.
8 colored mana source + 2 moxes is quite little - don't count dryad - it won't survive summoning sickness. Similar I add to my B/G Post list Solemn's as a fixer and additonal ramp/card advantage to stabilize mana base and getting more bodies to survive to casting bombs, don't forgot that my list was running 7 removal, 3 uncounterable, 4 Deeds which was always to counter spell + 2 Karns as answer to problematic permanents as humility/plainswalkers etc.

Good question is what you want to sacrifice via Natural Order ? Since you running really low count of creatures which you can cast before turn 4:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Dryad Arbors

That's really low count. Interesting how your tests vs any tempo/tempo-control decks ? It looks abyssal but maybe I'm wrong, since you can't attack his hand you must overload with threads (like Maverick) but with so many 2-for-1 your hand is probably very fast ending.

IMO you should consider more mana dorks and some defensive creatures - maybe goyfs (looks rather bad without any way to feed them) if you want to support Natural Order, or go other route like ramp by lands.

crop rotation does not usually get force of will’d and because its an instant you can play it selectively around spell pierce and daze so it’s not a 2-4-1. NO is a 2-4-1 or it just wins the game so its clearly an appropriate trade off. Mox diamond is only a 2 of and with ~28 lands in the deck id hardly say its even an issue worth mentioning considering it provides any color mana and helps under blood moon. Running 4 is an issue which is why 2 is appropriate.

Sometimes you play veteran first and chalice the following turn depending on the deck you are playing against. Sometimes chalice on 1 even if you are holding 3x cmc1 cards is fine cause its more detrimental against them.

it doesn't matter what you sacrifice to natural order, progenitus or primeval titan is almost 100% of the time going to be better than one of those creatures.

as i have repeated at ad nauseum, delver decks are currently the worst matches, and hence why I have resorted to testing the explorer build.

I have included the version i have done the most testing with below. I ended up cutting fetch lands for basic lands as I decided to add more veteran explorers. I also found it more advantageous to have more lands to be able to fetch lands with KOTR. While the mana base looks incredibly weak in this list it was managable. having 29 lands in the deck doesn't really make it weak to wasteland unless there is a fast clock on you.


//Creatures - 12
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Primeval Titan
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

//Spells - 19
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond

//Lands - 29
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Vesuva

[Bahra]

Yes, i do feel it has many favorably matches. When i sit down across from an opponent i do not fear that they have a deck I'm weak to. I am confident that I have at least a fair match up against my worst matches. UR Delver / RUG delver seem to be the most difficult and they are the reason i switched the deck to be more dependent on veteran explorer because he allows the deck to survive until late game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "all" counterspell decks, but miracles is what I would prefer to play against all day with this. Also, when i look at the list i see almost every card being threatening... A resolved titan, NO, or late game GSZ are usually game winners. GSZ also serves to get you to late game in the event you do not have chalice at 1.

Although I am still working on an optimal build, if you look at the shell it that won't change. The shell provides amazing consistency to a chalice based deck. Additionally, the shell enables the deck to easily incorporate early combo victories with NO, and almost guaranteed late game victories with Eldrazi.

The worst thing I want to see is sulfuric vortex (no life gain), price of progress, and humility. Fortunately for me humility is practically nonexistent, sulfuric vortex is a SB card typically, and decks that run it are very susceptible to chalice @ 1 and trinisphere. Additionally, any life gain I do manage to accumulate is often very bad for them. Moreover, price of progress can be played around and I can win without amassing nonbasic lands.

Blood moon does almost nothing to this deck but force me to not use the eldrazi strategy. painter has a hard matchup here and i have time to get to late game because of eldrazi shuffles and progenitus main. Sneak and show runs it in the sideboard which can suck but that matchup gets weird anyways and blood moon isn't much of a factor. As for dragon stompy... I'm not worried about running into it, but generally they have trouble with 6/6's.

Yes it does look terrible, there is no denying that. It looks clunky, and like it would hurt itself significantly with chalice. However, I urge you to pick it up and play with it because that is the only way to understand the beauty of the deck. Please don't come in here and provide speculative criticism without even play testing it. Also, keep in mind that if you are not familiar with all of the lines of play you will most certainly lose matches you should have won.

I don't need to playtest with a turd to realize it's a turd.

[Lemnear]

i really don't know what you want. It sounds like you just need to play traditional 12 post... You like the blue cantrips, you don't like chalice, you think S&T is superior. Either you are a biased blue player or a troll. You have literally shot down every card and aspect of the deck. If you feel so strongly against this deck why are you even in this thread?

I'm looking for the best surounding for the 12-Post manabase. It has nothing to do with being biased or a troll if I stumbled over consistancy issues in testing with your deck, grounded on the double colored mana costs and lacking threat redundancy/Manipulation or stable tools to stall the game. There are several options available (even in mono green) to improve in the named categories, but you choose to drag it on a personal level instead while claiming there is no issue with stalling and manaquantity in your GW 8-Post while it's obvious that the Glimmerposts lifegain and ramping is no way near the level of it's twin because it lacks Vesuvas and Maps. You don't even consider lowering the color-requirements an improvement, which I cannot understand.

crop rotation does not usually get force of will’d and because its an instant you can play it selectively around spell pierce and daze so it’s not a 2-4-1. NO is a 2-4-1 or it just wins the game so its clearly an appropriate trade off.

Why shouldn't anyone counter your offer for a 2-for-1 AND deny your mana-acceleration at the same time with Rotation? Sure it's no FoW Magnet, but Is it a given discussion Standard that we consider our opponents idiots? 2-for-1 with NO is fine IF IT RESOLVES and you CAN EVEN CAST IT. Both can considered an issue here and even Elves, which have many more creatures to sacrifice AND Cradle producing multiple green mana, tend to cut it postboard.

[apple713]

I'm looking for the best surounding for the 12-Post manabase. It has nothing to do with being biased or a troll if I stumbled over consistancy issues in testing with your deck, grounded on the double colored mana costs and lacking threat redundancy/Manipulation or stable tools to stall the game. There are several options available (even in mono green) to improve in the named categories, but you choose to drag it on a personal level instead while claiming there is no issue with stalling and manaquantity in your GW 8-Post while it's obvious that the Glimmerposts lifegain and ramping is no way near the level of it's twin because it lacks Vesuvas and Maps. You don't even consider lowering the color-requirements an improvement, which I cannot understand.



Why shouldn't anyone counter your offer for a 2-for-1 AND deny your mana-acceleration at the same time with Rotation? Sure it's no FoW Magnet, but Is it a given discussion Standard that we consider our opponents idiots? 2-for-1 with NO is fine IF IT RESOLVES and you CAN EVEN CAST IT. Both can considered an issue here and even Elves, which have many more creatures to sacrifice AND Cradle producing multiple green mana, tend to cut it postboard.

If you are looking for the best deck type surrounding the 12 post manabase you are going to settle on a variant of this list and here's why.

Lets assume the traditional 12 post deck is UG and is optimized. It doesn't run chalice so it gets cantrips. Even with all of the cantrips and bounce spells it has access to it still is pretty bad vs delver / tempo strategies. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing against combo decks game 1. Some lists have started running FOW main and that might be ok but unlikely to be sufficient. Post board is obviously better be its not great. The deck has issues with mana even running crop and expedition map. It can get the colored mana it needs but often not fast enough...the deck is just slow and durdle heavy.

Now that we know that version doesn't work, lets explore other options. The deck HAS to contain green for primeval titan. So if we are not playing mono green what color do we add to it? We need to improve combo matchups, and tempo/delver matchups. More consistency would be nice too.

To improve combo matches: Black can discard their hand; Blue can counter their spells or try and race with show and tell; Red can add pyrostatic pillar; White can add tax effects like Thalia; and green... well it can race with NO or GSZ for silver bullets; MUD can add chalice / trinisphere

If we want to improve consistency: Black can draw cards with confidant / phyrexian arena which are not good here, it has limited tutors because all the good ones have been banned; Blue has cantrips which have proven in the traditional version to be unsuccessful; Red has absolutely nothing which is why dragon stompy isn't tier 1; White has absolutely nothing which is why stax isn't tier 1; and green has GSZ and NO to tutor for silver bullets, and sylvan library; MUD has nothing which is why it isn't tier 1

Improve delver matchups: Black can pair with green for abrupt decay and toxic deluge; Blue doesn't have anything very effective or traditional versions would be running it; red can use punishing fires / groves, sudden shocks and the like, but how many slots do you devote to it? white has SFM and batter skull for life gain; green has choke / tutor for tabernacle and the veteran explorer plan; MUD has Batterskull / wurmcoil... still suffers from high cmc and daze effects, Metalworker is easily removed with just about everything.


So with all of that laid out what do you build? If there is something i'm missing, please point it out. Maybe there is a configuration I haven't tried but I've tried almost everything listed. I haven't tried SFM. I tried ramping into cards like Elesh Norn which are just about 100% win against delver decks but its not consistent enough. It can be uncountable with caverns but still the early game is the issue. maybe it needs to be more devoted to white and less to green? Maybe you just run black heavy on removal, cut the chalice and pray not to play play combo g1... is that strategy better than just playing blue? You could stick heavy with green and just play a strict adaptation of sylvan plug...list below...

from lejay's current list (to my knowledge) i made the following 12 card changes

-1 obstinate baloth
-1 trinisphere
-1 chalice of the void
-1 choke
-2 sylvan library
-2 rolling spoil
-3 wasteland
-1 taiga

+1 emrakul
+1 primeval titan
+1 Karakas
+1 Eye of Ugin
+4 cloudpost
+4 glimerpost

modified list here - untested

//Creatures - 10
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Primeval Titan
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Obstinate Baloth

//Spells - 20
2 Mox Diamond
2 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
2 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Lands - 30
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

//sideboard
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge


test it see if it comes out better? Would you have modified it a different way?

[Lemnear]

If you are looking for the best deck type surrounding the 12 post manabase you are going to settle on a variant of this list and here's why.

Lets assume the traditional 12 post deck is UG and is optimized. It doesn't run chalice so it gets cantrips. Even with all of the cantrips and bounce spells it has access to it still is pretty bad vs delver / tempo strategies. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing against combo decks game 1. Some lists have started running FOW main and that might be ok but unlikely to be sufficient. Post board is obviously better be its not great. The deck has issues with mana even running crop and expedition map. It can get the colored mana it needs but often not fast enough...the deck is just slow and durdle heavy.

I have absolutely no clue why you consider the mono-green list to be better against Delver especially with the lacking redundancy within Glimmerposts provided by Map and Vesuva. Given that Chalice is mediocre effective against SneakShow and the like and the quantity of defense between Chalice and FoW is the same MB and all decks board in additional combo hate anyways, I don't see much of a difference. Claiming that mana is an issue in UG despite the Maps and Vesuvas, but not in your GW multi-colored-mana-version with Explorers but lacking sac-outlets is nonsense, which was apparant in testing. The inital colored mana sources are about even, but needing either U or G is totally different to needing GW.

Now that we know that version doesn't work, lets explore other options. The deck HAS to contain green for primeval titan. So if we are not playing mono green what color do we add to it? We need to improve combo matchups, and tempo/delver matchups. More consistency would be nice too.

To improve combo matches: Black can discard their hand; Blue can counter their spells or try and race with show and tell; Red can add pyrostatic pillar; White can add tax effects like Thalia; and green... well it can race with NO or GSZ for silver bullets; MUD can add chalice / trinisphere

If we want to improve consistency: Black can draw cards with confidant / phyrexian arena which are not good here, it has limited tutors because all the good ones have been banned; Blue has cantrips which have proven in the traditional version to be unsuccessful; Red has absolutely nothing which is why dragon stompy isn't tier 1; White has absolutely nothing which is why stax isn't tier 1; and green has GSZ and NO to tutor for silver bullets, and sylvan library; MUD has nothing which is why it isn't tier 1

Improve delver matchups: Black can pair with green for abrupt decay and toxic deluge; Blue doesn't have anything very effective or traditional versions would be running it; red can use punishing fires / groves, sudden shocks and the like, but how many slots do you devote to it? white has SFM and batter skull for life gain; green has choke / tutor for tabernacle and the veteran explorer plan; MUD has Batterskull / wurmcoil... still suffers from high cmc and daze effects, Metalworker is easily removed with just about everything.

Punishing Fire, Bonfire of the Damned, Thragtusks, Batterskulls, Wurmcoils, etc. all double as kill conditions and as anti-Delver approaches like piling up Glimmerposts do. You can even consider Propaganda or its white twin for that. I refuse to keep commenting on the bolded nonsense. You prove nothing. You claimed it does not work, despite Jerry Rudolphs documented success with the UG version. Your claims vs. data. No contest; no offense. You can create consistancy via redundancy even in green starting with stuff like Map or Sylvan Scrying if your top end plan is to drag out the game with lifegain/Glacial chasm and finish with an Eldrazi, but you prefer adding a third color for your example list and play GWB for KotR, Teeg and Decay instead and weaken your cores strengh even more? You even reduced your Tombs and Chalices but remain part of your argumentation. This all isn't sound. Why are you refusing to build the deck around the quantity of colorless mana but keep adding colors for cards (which have colorless alternatives) just to have the option to NO/GSZ for them? You sacrifice too much consistancy in terms of mana compared to your gain via the option to tutor for hatecard x.

[Fatal]

from lejay's current list (to my knowledge) i made the following 12 card changes

-1 obstinate baloth
-1 trinisphere
-1 chalice of the void
-1 choke
-2 sylvan library
-2 rolling spoil
-3 wasteland
-1 taiga

+1 emrakul
+1 primeval titan
+1 Karakas
+1 Eye of Ugin
+4 cloudpost
+4 glimerpost

modified list here - untested

//Creatures - 10
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Primeval Titan
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Obstinate Baloth

//Spells - 20
2 Mox Diamond
2 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
2 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Lands - 30
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

//sideboard
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge


test it see if it comes out better? Would you have modified it a different way?

List looks better but if you test it you will find - that Ancient Tomb isn't needed most time, since you run two colors you need more mana sources, decreasing number of lands with more buisness spells would be much better at the end I would change:
-3 Ancient Tomb
+2 Bombs / 1 mass removal - Deed would be best but since you running chalice and Trini it would be desynergy so maybe Toxic Deluge 1 MD - still depends on meta. You can also think about Ugin as mass removal and win con. I can see this deck lack of game ending cards which aren't 2 for 1 (NO before).

[apple713]

I have absolutely no clue why you consider the mono-green list to be better against Delver especially with the lacking redundancy within Glimmerposts provided by Map and Vesuva. Given that Chalice is mediocre effective against SneakShow and the like and the quantity of defense between Chalice and FoW is the same MB and all decks board in additional combo hate anyways, I don't see much of a difference. Claiming that mana is an issue in UG despite the Maps and Vesuvas, but not in your GW multi-colored-mana-version with Explorers but lacking sac-outlets is nonsense, which was apparant in testing. The inital colored mana sources are about even, but needing either U or G is totally different to needing GW.



Punishing Fire, Bonfire of the Damned, Thragtusks, Batterskulls, Wurmcoils, etc. all double as kill conditions and as anti-Delver approaches like piling up Glimmerposts do. You can even consider Propaganda or its white twin for that. I refuse to keep commenting on the bolded nonsense. You prove nothing. You claimed it does not work, despite Jerry Rudolphs documented success with the UG version. Your claims vs. data. No contest; no offense. You can create consistancy via redundancy even in green starting with stuff like Map or Sylvan Scrying if your top end plan is to drag out the game with lifegain/Glacial chasm and finish with an Eldrazi, but you prefer adding a third color for your example list and play GWB for KotR, Teeg and Decay instead and weaken your cores strengh even more? You even reduced your Tombs and Chalices but remain part of your argumentation. This all isn't sound. Why are you refusing to build the deck around the quantity of colorless mana but keep adding colors for cards (which have colorless alternatives) just to have the option to NO/GSZ for them? You sacrifice too much consistancy in terms of mana compared to your gain via the option to tutor for hatecard x.

why don't you suggest a list... all of your criticism amounts to nothing because you simply just tell me that my suggestions and ideas are wrong. Additionally you continue to defend the UG list which seems like what you want to play... it seems so perfect in your eyes why change it at all?

List looks better but if you test it you will find - that Ancient Tomb isn't needed most time, since you run two colors you need more mana sources, decreasing number of lands with more buisness spells would be much better at the end I would change:
-3 Ancient Tomb
+2 Bombs / 1 mass removal - Deed would be best but since you running chalice and Trini it would be desynergy so maybe Toxic Deluge 1 MD - still depends on meta. You can also think about Ugin as mass removal and win con. I can see this deck lack of game ending cards which aren't 2 for 1 (NO before).

-3 ancient tombs +2 primeval titans +1 deluge then. cavern would be nice but no tutors for it so its kinda pointless to have 1 with no way to tutor for it.

[Bahra]

why don't you suggest a list... all of your criticism amounts to nothing because you simply just tell me that my suggestions and ideas are wrong.

If I told you that I had made a major breakthrough with UR Delver and the key was to replace Delver with Flying Men and Monastery Swiftspear with Raging Goblin. Would you do it and play my list? Or would you tell me that my ideas are wrong?


Your ideas are wrong.

[apple713]

If I told you that I had made a major breakthrough with UR Delver and the key was to replace Delver with Flying Men and Monastery Swiftspear with Raging Goblin. Would you do it and play my list? Or would you tell me that my ideas are wrong?


Your ideas are wrong.

Saying my ideas are wrong is just an allegation with no backup. It's like me calling you an astronaut. you could be but most likely are not.... flying men and raging goblin are not even close to any changes i have suggested.

thanks for the the 0 contribution and the bump.