[Deck] Chalice of the Dark Order

[apple713]

I'm thinking 2 Scryb Rangers if you put in the Deathrites and 1 if not. Maybe a 2nd in the SB if you choose not to put in the Deathrites. DRS is probably the 2nd or 3rd best critter in the meta right now. They do so much for so little and if you're playing GSZ you can bring them in even around a Chalice@1.

The other creature I really like as a 1-of right now is Dosan the Falling Leaf. Lots of people will not counter GSZ at 3 because what's the worst thing that could happen at that value? Then Dosan lands and they can't do anything else and you have a turn to work unfettered, particularly if you are playing the DRS, Scryb Ranger, KotR troika, which can ramp in some interesting ways at times.

thanks for reminding me. I did want to add more cards to the board that interact with GSZ. Dosan, scavenging ooze, gaddock teeg, all seem like good options. Teeg seems like it would steal the most games against combo decks and still allow me to win with Dark depths combo. its cartable on t1 although unlikely, with mox tomb gsz.

the thing about dosan is that best case it locks them out of a counterspell. effectively this is that same as if i had just cast a threat on that turn that they needed to counter, unless they are holding multiple counters. The difference is that if they kill dosan, i've just wasted my turn and the same is true if they don't have a counterspell. if its a threat that can win the game, and they don't have a counter, then i just win. so he seems less than optimal.

I've also been less than happy with elder scale wurm. Its possible i just haven't been able to go the natural order route in the games he would have helped.

cards that need to be added to main deck


scryb ranger
courser of kruphix

-1 scroll rack -1 elderscale wurm +1 scryb ranger +1 courser of kruphix

scroll rack has been less than steller because i usually only have 1-2 cards in hand when i draw it. Other than shuffling back NO targets that i draw its been less than stellar. maybe combined with courser it'll prove to generate huge advantage.


cards that need to be added to board

bojuka bog
scavenging ooze
gaddock teeg

Thalia is probably unnecessary and there is a better option somewhere. RIP is ok, but adding bog / loaming in its place are probably better.

-3 thalia +3 trinisphere
-3 rip + bog + scavenging ooze + teeg

currently a second ruric is in board just because drawing him in a combo match really hoses you when you need to natural order him into play.


****Updated OP with current build after edits.

[FoolofaTook]

the thing about dosan is that best case it locks them out of a counterspell. effectively this is that same as if i had just cast a threat on that turn that they needed to counter, unless they are holding multiple counters. The difference is that if they kill dosan, i've just wasted my turn and the same is true if they don't have a counterspell. if its a threat that can win the game, and they don't have a counter, then i just win. so he seems less than optimal.

Dosan locks them out of all spells on the turn he lands. They can't just kill him unless they have an activated ability way to do that.

So let's say it's turn 4 and you have an Ancient Tomb, a Savannah, a Forest and a Deathrite Shaman in play with another land to drop that turn. So you tap the Ancient Tomb, the Savannah and the Forest to play GSZ at 3. Your opponent either doesn't have a counter or doesn't want to spend one on something he is planning to StP after if lands. Out comes Dosan and you have the turn to play with. You play the land and you tap your DRS to make a mana and you play Chalice@1.

That's a pretty good shot at an unobstructed Natural Order the next turn. He can't bolt or plow Dosan on his turn and as soon as it's your turn again you have the field so to speak. Obviously there are better combos than that available but this is Legacy and we have to assume that Magical Christmas land doesn't happen very often in this type of linear creature-based combo.

Note that if he did Force the GSZ, well then you got to play your Chalice@1 anyway after that happened.

[apple713]

Dosan locks them out of all spells on the turn he lands. They can't just kill him unless they have an activated ability way to do that.

So let's say it's turn 4 and you have an Ancient Tomb, a Savannah, a Forest and a Deathrite Shaman in play with another land to drop that turn. So you tap the Ancient Tomb, the Savannah and the Forest to play GSZ at 3. Your opponent either doesn't have a counter or doesn't want to spend one on something he is planning to StP after if lands. Out comes Dosan and you have the turn to play with. You play the land and you tap your DRS to make a mana and you play Chalice@1.

That's a pretty good shot at an unobstructed Natural Order the next turn. He can't bolt or plow Dosan on his turn and as soon as it's your turn again you have the field so to speak. Obviously there are better combos than that available but this is Legacy and we have to assume that Magical Christmas land doesn't happen very often in this type of linear creature-based combo.

Note that if he did Force the GSZ, well then you got to play your Chalice@1 anyway after that happened.

most decks given the opportunity counter a GSZ x=3 ... people know that KOTR wrecks shop. Game 2 after they see that's what i would get it'll always get a counterspell so really the strategy is only effective game 1 and in very specific situations.

[FoolofaTook]

most decks given the opportunity counter a GSZ x=3 ... people know that KOTR wrecks shop. Game 2 after they see that's what i would get it'll always get a counterspell so really the strategy is only effective game 1 and in very specific situations.

You'll still get your Chalice@1 out of it. With KotR if that's what they think you are going for they'll hold the counter for Chalice and plow the knight.

[apple713]

You'll still get your Chalice@1 out of it. With KotR if that's what they think you are going for they'll hold the counter for Chalice and plow the knight.

i see what your saying now. I still think that its a corner case to justify a slot for him. It also means i can't crop rotate on opponents turn. obviously i won't be crop rotating with a chalice out but his purpose is so limited i feel like there are other cards that would add more to the deck.

[FoolofaTook]

i see what your saying now. I still think that its a corner case to justify a slot for him. It also means i can't crop rotate on opponents turn. obviously i won't be crop rotating with a chalice out but his purpose is so limited i feel like there are other cards that would add more to the deck.

Once the opponent knows that you are playing Dosan they're going to have to respond to every GSZ at 3+ as though he's going to be the choice. That means you can cut short their ability to see your plays and make decisions on that basis.

Miracles has to either counter GSZ or play their Miracle in response to your GSZ instead of at EoT. By definition if they want to Terminus before your attack phase they're going to have to do it when you cast GSZ, which will leave your fetched creature on the table after the Terminus resolves.

Any list playing 1cc removal is going to have to look at your potential board as Dosan followed by an Ancient Tomb and Chalice@1. They're going to have to blow their bolt or StP in response to GSZ, making your tutored creature that much safer. Your GSZ's will get better and better as the game state progresses because they will be bringing out a larger potential selection of creatures from your list as your mana pool grows. The opponent will always be caught in the trap of having to get rid of what came before because what comes next may limit their options.

StP or bolt dead in the hand as creature removal with two of your creatures on the board or they choose to remove the earlier one blind without knowing what the later one is.

I think Dosan has to be a one of in a GSZ list playing Ancient Tombs and Chalices. He just creates so much uncertainly for the opponent and they can't even probe you on their turn to figure out what their best plays are. They have to live with the knowledge that any GSZ at x=3 or greater could be a game-defining moment that puts them on the downslope with few recovery options.

[apple713]

Once the opponent knows that you are playing Dosan they're going to have to respond to every GSZ at 3+ as though he's going to be the choice. That means you can cut short their ability to see your plays and make decisions on that basis.

Miracles has to either counter GSZ or play their Miracle in response to your GSZ instead of at EoT. By definition if they want to Terminus before your attack phase they're going to have to do it when you cast GSZ, which will leave your fetched creature on the table after the Terminus resolves.

Any list playing 1cc removal is going to have to look at your potential board as Dosan followed by an Ancient Tomb and Chalice@1. They're going to have to blow their bolt or StP in response to GSZ, making your tutored creature that much safer. Your GSZ's will get better and better as the game state progresses because they will be bringing out a larger potential selection of creatures from your list as your mana pool grows. The opponent will always be caught in the trap of having to get rid of what came before because what comes next may limit their options.

StP or bolt dead in the hand as creature removal with two of your creatures on the board or they choose to remove the earlier one blind without knowing what the later one is.

I think Dosan has to be a one of in a GSZ list playing Ancient Tombs and Chalices. He just creates so much uncertainly for the opponent and they can't even probe you on their turn to figure out what their best plays are. They have to live with the knowledge that any GSZ at x=3 or greater could be a game-defining moment that puts them on the downslope with few recovery options.

what you are proposing requires 6 mana and a spell pierce on GSZ would then require 8 mana to gsz for dosan and chalice at 1. that never happens...I would really like to hear some results from play testing that you have done.

[FoolofaTook]

what you are proposing requires 6 mana and a spell pierce on GSZ would then require 8 mana to gsz for dosan and chalice at 1. that never happens...I would really like to hear some results from play testing that you have done.

What I'm proposing requires a regular land, a deathrite shaman and an ancient tomb on turn 3 with another ancient tomb, GSZ and Chalice in hand. It requires a 2 lands and 2 ancient tombs and GSZ and a Chalice of the Void on turn 4.

The list you have up top has at least 7 cards that are likely to draw counters early on in Crop Rotation and Natural Order. It's not like the GSZ on 3 or 4 is going to be the first thing the opponent counters most of the time. Overall I count about 18-20 spells in the list that are going to be in the "must-counter" realm when you play them. I don't know any lists right now playing more than 12 counters and most lists are playing 8-10. I think you have a very good chance of seeing the opponent run out of counters before you run out of things to cast. Making GSZ a "must-counter" card for them is a big part of that.

Most people playing 4-8 creature removal and 8-10 counters are going to let the GSZ@3 resolve and kill what it produces. It's the logical way to deal with limited resources against the kind of effect you are putting into play. "Only counter the things that will kill you" is a tried and true control method. Dosan kills them, unlike anything else GSZ produces. Even Vampire Hexmage, assuming you're still going that route, just gives you a very plowable Marit Lage.

[apple713]

The list you have up top has at least 7 cards that are likely to draw counters early on in Crop Rotation and Natural Order. It's not like the GSZ on 3 or 4 is going to be the first thing the opponent counters most of the time. Overall I count about 18-20 spells in the list that are going to be in the "must-counter" realm when you play them. I don't know any lists right now playing more than 12 counters and most lists are playing 8-10. I think you have a very good chance of seeing the opponent run out of counters before you run out of things to cast. Making GSZ a "must-counter" card for them is a big part of that.

Most people playing 4-8 creature removal and 8-10 counters are going to let the GSZ@3 resolve and kill what it produces. It's the logical way to deal with limited resources against the kind of effect you are putting into play. "Only counter the things that will kill you" is a tried and true control method. Dosan kills them, unlike anything else GSZ produces. Even Vampire Hexmage, assuming you're still going that route, just gives you a very plowable Marit Lage.

because of this comparison, i would consider testing dosan. Just not sure what I cut for it...

[apple713]

after a lot of testing, this deck has favorable matchup vs ant / burn. it has similar good matchup as the original turbo depths list against decks that do not run Wasteland like UR delver, and decks that don't run answers once the token is created, like BUG. It's ability to NO into Progenitus where Marit Lage would normally get removed is a very good strength. Additionally NO into ruric against combo helps significantly as does NO into Elderscale against decks with no answers where you might get overwhelmed.

I'm liking the diversity of this list to traditional all in depths because sometimes the difficulty in overcoming the shortfalls of dark depths combo are much harder than simply attacking with a KOTR or NO into a better answer like progenitus / ruric.

The consistency of this deck is really impressive. being able to play chalice on t1 when you get it or move on to more aggressive plays really impresses me over other options with chalice of the void main.

one important thing to note is that Elderscale will lose to a DRS or other means of life loss. It's not as powerful as I once thought and should not be relied on. instead it simply buys time.

haven't had any tests against S&T.

despite the way the deck looks mana problems have not been an issue. T1 blood moon is but that is kinda expected since you have no chance to react but other than that i'm not finding that this dead is dead int he water vs anything.


Has anyone else been testing this?

I'm about to remove titania as i've never once wanted to search for her

Also, while I have used Scryb ranger to block against aven minds censor it can't be relied on and aven really does present a problem for this deck. I'm thinking that tarmogoyf might be a better 2 cmc card to GSZ for and abrupt decay might be worth finding a spot main. someone mentioned a person they ran into in italy was playing something similar and they used volrath's stronghold and life from the loam.

[apple713]

I've added a matchup analysis. It demonstrates the deck being well positioned and flexible in the current meta.

*if you want more details please let me know.

[FoolofaTook]

What's the plan against S&T? I'm thinking that's the list that's close to impossible for a list without red or blue to beat at this point.

[apple713]

What's the plan against S&T? I'm thinking that's the list that's close to impossible for a list without red or blue to beat at this point.

not sure what the second half of your sentence is trying to say but I'm trying to make some changes in the flex spots to improve the S&T matchup.

poking around sylvan plug thread suggests that its not a favorable match for the deck in general. However adding stingerflinger spider is an easy way to at least have more game against them. 5 mana is a lot against a deck that can t2 emrakul but it can be GSZ, NO, and S&T into play. It also helps against delver decks and D&T and may earn a main deck slot.

i've got 2-3 variable slots for the main deck (1 titania, 1 scryb ranger, 1 Courser of Cruphix in that order) and am considering the following

teeg - AdNauseum Dredge High Tide
ooze - Reanimator AdNauseum Dredge Lands
Bojuka bog - Reanimator AdNauseum Dredge Lands
stingerfling spider - S&T some D&T Reanimator and Delver
Karakas - S&T Reanimator some D&T


first priority would be to improve S&T, D&T. Then Elves / RUG to make those not so much of a toss up / race.



Other thoughts

I'm considering cutting elder scale warm from sideboard and thought seizes. If I do that and move some SB cards to the main I'll have UP to 6 slots in SB to better adjust for the poor matchups. adding something that works in place of thoughtseize like ethersworn canonist would improve most matches thoughtseize comes in against and provide a threat while not getting locked out from chalice.

The reason for considering cutting courser is because this deck is very fast and doesn't have much time to realize the advantage courser grants. Also, because its a combo based deck, revealing Natural Order or dark depths as your top card completely blows your cover and opponent might be able to adapt.

I've also considered adding 1 more card like qusali because SFM decks usually run 2 equip and if the game drags on to the point where they stick 2 it can become problematic.

[FoolofaTook]

not sure what the second half of your sentence is trying to say but I'm trying to make some changes in the flex spots to improve the S&T matchup.

What does the list do against T2 or T3 Show and Tell into Hivemind and a pact? I ran a Junk affiliate list against S&T Friday night and other than Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard (Thoughtseize in this list) there was just nothing that had even a remote chance to stand up to that. Emrakul was tough but Hivemind was close to impossible because once Show and Tell resolves it's game over and they use Intuition at end of your turn to set it up if they haven't already assembled the combo through more traditional cantrip related means.


Blue or red lets you prevent Show and Tell (or Intuition if you go that route) from resolving. Junk just doesn't have anything that manages that. The counters and Brainstorm essentially strip us of any likely chance to interact with the S&T list before they do something that we then can't interact with.

[apple713]

What does the list do against T2 or T3 Show and Tell into Hivemind and a pact? I ran a Junk affiliate list against S&T Friday night and other than Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard (Thoughtseize in this list) there was just nothing that had even a remote chance to stand up to that. Emrakul was tough but Hivemind was close to impossible because once Show and Tell resolves it's game over and they use Intuition at end of your turn to set it up if they haven't already assembled the combo through more traditional cantrip related means.


Blue or red lets you prevent Show and Tell (or Intuition if you go that route) from resolving. Junk just doesn't have anything that manages that. The counters and Brainstorm essentially strip us of any likely chance to interact with the S&T list before they do something that we then can't interact with.

are you saying that the deck needs to run red for pyroblast to interact with these decks or blue for other counterspells?

I agree that thought seize isn't the best because cards can be hidden with brainstorm which is 1 reason i don't like thought seize as much and likely to come out of my sb. I don't think red / blue is the only effective way to interact with S&T.

adding karakas to the deck significantly improves the situation against S&T and something like teeg / pithing needle / revoker are good against Sneak attack. I haven't figured out if these are really good options let alone the best but its something i've been trying to figure out.

You made a good point to poke around the Junk thread to see how they deal with these decks. I'll have to find out and get back to you, but currently as my matchup analysis has revealed, these are not good matchups.

EDIT***
sdematt: "Sneak and Show, I have Needle, Teeg, Charm, and Grip. Chainer's could be Diabolic Edict. Here's a match where I'd likely want Thalia just to slow them down." All of that is onto of 6 1cmc discard 3x STP and 1 karakas...

S&T is an amazing deck and this is 1 of the reasons its so damn good... because its really hard to hate against.

i just found the most amazing creature that could solve all of the problems of S&T. its permanent. The'll never expect it and off the S&T they just lose.

Willow Satyr

[FoolofaTook]

Here's the problem: How do you interact with this?

T1 - Blue land, Ponder or Preordain.
T2 - City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, put Hive Mind into play. Play a Pact of the Titan or play a Lotus Petal and Pact of Negation their own spell.

What can Junk possibly to do to fight that by turn 2 except get lucky to both have Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 and that they don't have a counter to deal with it?

Emrakul there are answers too. The answers to Hive Mind or Omniscience just aren't there. The only answer I had in my Junk build were the 3 Cabal Therapies sideboard and 1 Trinisphere that I put in specifically for Omniscience, only Junk can't find cards like that reliably by turn 2 even when they're on the play and might have a chance to disrupt some.

I just don't see how to deal with that in this archetype at the moment. I was playing 4 Aether Vial, 3 Tidehollow Sculler and 3 Ethersworn Canonist alongside the 3 Cabal Therapy and singleton Trinisphere game 2 and I actually therapied him successfully for Show and Tell on the play. The end of my turn 3 he Intuitioned for the other 3 Show and Tell and I was dead on his turn.

[apple713]

Here's the problem: How do you interact with this?

T1 - Blue land, Ponder or Preordain.
T2 - City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, put Hive Mind into play. Play a Pact of the Titan or play a Lotus Petal and Pact of Negation their own spell.

What can Junk possibly to do to fight that by turn 2 except get lucky to both have Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 and that they don't have a counter to deal with it?

Emrakul there are answers too. The answers to Hive Mind or Omniscience just aren't there. The only answer I had in my Junk build were the 3 Cabal Therapies sideboard and 1 Trinisphere that I put in specifically for Omniscience, only Junk can't find cards like that reliably by turn 2 even when they're on the play and might have a chance to disrupt some.

I just don't see how to deal with that in this archetype at the moment. I was playing 4 Aether Vial, 3 Tidehollow Sculler and 3 Ethersworn Canonist alongside the 3 Cabal Therapy and singleton Trinisphere game 2 and I actually therapied him successfully for Show and Tell on the play. The end of my turn 3 he Intuitioned for the other 3 Show and Tell and I was dead on his turn.

@ omni, this match is incredibly favorable for all the reasons i mentioned in the matchup analysis. You get opening hands like i did tonight, thoughtseize, mox diamond, dark depths, tomb, trinisphere, chalice, natural order. Its a complete blow out.


i hear what you are saying, and the deck doesn't have much. Since Hive mind is played so little i must stop you from discussing it further because until it becomes prevalent i don't see the point in adapting a specific strategy just for that deck. If its in your meta then you'll have to adapt but its not in 99% of anyone else meta.

i think i listed a fair amount of options about what junk can do even though they may not be the best available when compared to other colors.

Are you suggesting the deck gets scrapped because it doesn't run counterspells? This cannot be since by that logic every deck not running counterspells should not be played because of decks like belcher...

whats the point of what you are saying?

You are pointing out a weakness, and i agree. If you are looking to me for an answer i've given options. Make suggestions if my choices are not good enough.

Easy choices would be thalia revoker, and Karakas. I think the best way to approach the situation might actually be to adapt the sideboard to a D&T kind of approach. S&T's Greatest weakness is D&T. Karakas, thalia, phyrexian revoker, swords, spirit of the labrynth, containment priest. if you don't like what i've chosen you can pick a few that benefit your other matches.

keep in mind that S&T brings in blood moon for Karakas, and pyroclasm for revokers. Inspire of this they may buy you enough time to NO or Dark depths. Dark depths is unaffected by Thalia which is nice.

[Claymore]

Why does there need to be a plan against Hivemind? That deck is terrible. If it's in your weird meta then run 4 Mana Tithe 4 Angel's Grace. Hivemind has fallen out of favor with Show and Tell archetypes because the meta is rampant with soft counters like flusterstorm, daze, and spell pierce, which makes it extremely easy to counter your own pact while pushing your own counter through.

Sorry for responding to the troll!

Have you been testing Courser? I found it very lackluster in GW Maverick in the current meta.

I'd recommend Toxic Deluge for the sideboard against D&T.

Also, what about a 1 of Boseiju for the sideboard? I've sided it in with my GW Maverick deck to push through Armageddon and GSZs, it's a very powerful card that is overlooked these days. I would cut Scooze, as it is very weak right now and it can't get any advantage when you're running Ancient Tombs and Cities.

[apple713]

i've added a sideboard guide to the primer and made changes to the main deck and sideboard

I am also considering moving all or some of the following from main to SB since i seem to be boarding the decay's and sages in almost 60% of my matches. My reservation is that karakas and singerfling make S&T & D&T & reanimator slightly better g1, and aren't completely dead in other matches.

main
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Wasteland
-1 Stingerfling Spider
-1 Karakas

SB
+1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Abrupt Decay


also considering sigarda and hornet nest - yup mouse over it


although i personally prefer dark depths because its a 20/20, i've also ported this list to 12 post, and it seems to have solved the miracles coin flip match, and turned the unfavorable D&T matchup into a favorable one. It also deals with creatures swarm decks better with the inclusion of Glacial chasm, so elves isn't as iffy. I made a brief post about it here

brief thoughts on it are that ultimately it may be better in the long run because of its matchups vs D&T and miracles...really i just like smashing miracles hard. I think it can have better matchups vs S&T but I haven't developed a sideboard for it or tested enough to really expose any additional weaknesses i've created by dropping the dark depths combo.

Why does there need to be a plan against Hivemind? That deck is terrible. If it's in your weird meta then run 4 Mana Tithe 4 Angel's Grace. Hivemind has fallen out of favor with Show and Tell archetypes because the meta is rampant with soft counters like flusterstorm, daze, and spell pierce, which makes it extremely easy to counter your own pact while pushing your own counter through.

Sorry for responding to the troll!

Have you been testing Courser? I found it very lackluster in GW Maverick in the current meta.

I'd recommend Toxic Deluge for the sideboard against D&T.

Also, what about a 1 of Boseiju for the sideboard? I've sided it in with my GW Maverick deck to push through Armageddon and GSZs, it's a very powerful card that is overlooked these days. I would cut Scooze, as it is very weak right now and it can't get any advantage when you're running Ancient Tombs and Cities.

It seems like your suggestions are on point with the changes i've made to SB and Maindeck.

I don't like courser since i've found him to be lack luster as well. He got cut
toxic deluge made it into SB

I agree with your comment on ooze. Its weird tho because he reads like an all star but in practice just doesn't work out.

im considering Anafenza, the Foremost in his place since it doesn't require an activation cost and can't be responded to since its a replacement effect. drawback is that its a bitch to hardcast, and doesn't do anything against creatures already in the grave.

Boseiju could be added but it doesn't really improve any matches i struggle with.

[apple713]

I have made a complete overhaul to this deck after significant testing. I've found that the changes are necessary to offset the weaknesses of the old Dark Depths build with the benefits of the new Eldrazi build.

The eldrazi addition improved matchups against miracles, stone forge decks, D&T, S&T, and Reanimator. It weakened it’s matchup vs Shardless / Jund which is acceptable because they were so favorable.