[Deck] Chalice of the Dark Order

[adrieng]

If you go to the post.list. I have tested a bit a Mud.Depth deck which is ok but worse than classic deph against everything that is tempoish which is a big problem to my mind. I also think your deck is weak to delver.decks.


4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Maze of Ith

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Grave Titan
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Blightsteel Colossus

[apple713]

If you go to the post.list. I have tested a bit a Mud.Depth deck which is ok but worse than classic deph against everything that is tempoish which is a big problem to my mind. I also think your deck is weak to delver.decks.


4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Maze of Ith

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Grave Titan
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Yeah i can see that the list above is rather weak because it doesn't benefit from the consistency GSZ and Crop rotation bring. GSZ really balances a lot for the deck. It serves as, acceleration with dryad arbor, toolbox / threat with KOTR, pridemage, and Late game its all threats cause you can bring out primeval titan, ruric, progenitus. It's also all artifacts so that leaves it weak to cards like ancient grudge.

The dark depths list i included in the OP is decent. I don't think that it is better than the depths version we are working on. Ultimately i abandon it because i wasn't seeing enough benefit compared to the list you devised. The eldrazi version does have improved matchups vs Miracle/Storm/12Post/LEDDredge/DeathAndTaxes which is ultimately why i adopted it over the dark depths version.

[apple713]

after ~20 days of testing I have updated the current decklist. I've made adjustments to improve the short game to get to long game. Using veteran explorer as a blocker in matches like UR is perfect because it buys time and ramps so you can cast all the 4+ mana spells in the deck. Having 3x veteran and 4x GSZ almost ensures you get one every game if you want it. Although there is no sacrifice outlet, veteran is still very useful without the traditional cabal therapy nic fit shenanigans, unless you are playing against a deck that uses STP. If you are playing against a STP deck, its no big deal because those are generally your better matchups.

Although it seems strange to have added 3 more 1 drops (veteran explorers) they do not tend to clash with chalice. against decks that you want to stick a chalice at 1 such as ant / elves, veteran is a dead card anyways. Against decks like UR delver, sticking a chalice at 1 is huge, so having up to 3 dead cards really isn't an issue. Normally against UR, i'll play a veteran first if I'm on the draw, and chalice first if I'm on the play. UR is not likely to force a veteran and if they force the chalice, i can play my veterans.

People who have seen this deck in action have responded well however no one on the source seems to have shown much interest or given any feedback.

Changes are at the bottom

//Creatures - 13
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

//Spells - 19
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Library

//Lands - 28
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Willow Satyr
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Hornet Queen

//Others for Consideration
SB: 1 Bane of Progress
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Stoic Angel
SB: 1 Phantom Nishoba
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

3 Veteran Explorer - testing 3 v 1
3 Primeval Titan - testing 3 vs 2
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - variable
3 Natural Order - testing 3 v 4
3 Sylvan Library - testing 3 v 2
4 Forest - increased basic count to support veteran
1 Cavern of Souls - surprised i didn't have one in here before
1 Plains - considering switching this to forest since I have reduced the number of white cards to 2 main deck.
1 Knight of the Reliquary - testing 1 v 4 because previous versions did not have enough lands to really support multiple fetches

[Lemnear]

Isn't this a mono-green Version of 12-post?

[apple713]

Isn't this a mono-green Version of 12-post?

Originally it didnt start out like that but has proved to be the most efficient. all of the spells except crop rotation are different and nothing that 12 post has ever used. In fact they are signature cards from other decks.bin not trying to revolutionize other versions of existing decks or even create my own but its too different for any of the current deck threads to entertain such a radically different list.

[Fatal]

Interesting how this deck is similar to posted long time ago - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ighlight=8post

[Lemnear]

Originally it didnt start out like that but has proved to be the most efficient. all of the spells except crop rotation are different and nothing that 12 post has ever used. In fact they are signature cards from other decks.bin not trying to revolutionize other versions of existing decks or even create my own but its too different for any of the current deck threads to entertain such a radically different list.

I just asked, because I see strategic similar cards (NO->S&T or Explorer->Exploration Map/Candelabra) in both decks and wonder why there is still a difference after the years we have Cloudpost+Glimmerpost+Vesuva around. The same is true for Post-MUD in some way as well. I have the manabase laying around and opt to tinker with it a bit more in the upcoming months, so I'm looking for input. Thanks so far

[ironclad8690]

Started testing this deck on cockatrice. Unfortunately people will kick me out of the game pretty often after g1 for some reason. This deck is super fun, and I look forward to playing it in real life.

[apple713]

Interesting how this deck is similar to posted long time ago - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ighlight=8post

It is interesting because i have never seen your post. Interesting that you are trying for the same strategies. Your version is weak to the majority of combo matches that this version is not. Main deck chalice helps significantly there. Additionally fetching up a teeg and running trinisphere pretty much cements those matches for this build.

I know you and others will disagree but cabal therapy really sucks. Imo its trash. Sure you COULD get value out of it but brainstorm really fudges your plans. Additionally without gitaxian probe its even worse. There is no worse feeling than when you therapy for something and they topdeck it following turn. Furthermore cabal therapy only gets worse as more cards get printed.

I just asked, because I see strategic similar cards (NO->S&T or Explorer->Exploration Map/Candelabra) in both decks and wonder why there is still a difference after the years we have Cloudpost+Glimmerpost+Vesuva around. The same is true for Post-MUD in some way as well. I have the manabase laying around and opt to tinker with it a bit more in the upcoming months, so I'm looking for input. Thanks so far

I prefer NO to S&T because opponent doesnt gain an advantage as they would with s&t. Furthermore you dont need a creature in your hand so it is more of a 1 card combo than S&T. Explorer is better for early game than candle / map imo because it buys time and ramps. Chalice is very strong in the meta right now but decks like sylvan plug destroy their advantage by maindecking cards like choke. Others like stax types have no consistency. Sylvan library, gsz and no provide consistency.

Started testing this deck on cockatrice. Unfortunately people will kick me out of the game pretty often after g1 for some reason. This deck is super fun, and I look forward to playing it in real life.

thats unfortunate, I haven't had the same experience.

[Bahra]

So you basically think that every match up is favored or heavily favored for the deck you just came up with? It frankly looks horrible and I can't imagine why you would have so much confidence in it.

This deck has to have a very bad match up against all counterspell decks, with so few haymakers and such a difficult time actually casting eldrazi.

At least try to be a little realistic.

[apple713]

So you basically think that every match up is favored or heavily favored for the deck you just came up with? It frankly looks horrible and I can't imagine why you would have so much confidence in it.

This deck has to have a very bad match up against all counterspell decks, with so few haymakers and such a difficult time actually casting eldrazi.

At least try to be a little realistic.

Yes, i do feel it has many favorably matches. When i sit down across from an opponent i do not fear that they have a deck I'm weak to. I am confident that I have at least a fair match up against my worst matches. UR Delver / RUG delver seem to be the most difficult and they are the reason i switched the deck to be more dependent on veteran explorer because he allows the deck to survive until late game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "all" counterspell decks, but miracles is what I would prefer to play against all day with this. Also, when i look at the list i see almost every card being threatening... A resolved titan, NO, or late game GSZ are usually game winners. GSZ also serves to get you to late game in the event you do not have chalice at 1.

Although I am still working on an optimal build, if you look at the shell it that won't change. The shell provides amazing consistency to a chalice based deck. Additionally, the shell enables the deck to easily incorporate early combo victories with NO, and almost guaranteed late game victories with Eldrazi.

The worst thing I want to see is sulfuric vortex (no life gain), price of progress, and humility. Fortunately for me humility is practically nonexistent, sulfuric vortex is a SB card typically, and decks that run it are very susceptible to chalice @ 1 and trinisphere. Additionally, any life gain I do manage to accumulate is often very bad for them. Moreover, price of progress can be played around and I can win without amassing nonbasic lands.

Blood moon does almost nothing to this deck but force me to not use the eldrazi strategy. painter has a hard matchup here and i have time to get to late game because of eldrazi shuffles and progenitus main. Sneak and show runs it in the sideboard which can suck but that matchup gets weird anyways and blood moon isn't much of a factor. As for dragon stompy... I'm not worried about running into it, but generally they have trouble with 6/6's.

Yes it does look terrible, there is no denying that. It looks clunky, and like it would hurt itself significantly with chalice. However, I urge you to pick it up and play with it because that is the only way to understand the beauty of the deck. Please don't come in here and provide speculative criticism without even play testing it. Also, keep in mind that if you are not familiar with all of the lines of play you will most certainly lose matches you should have won.

[Lemnear]

Explorer w/o a sac-outlet sucks more than Therapy without Duress/Probe/format Knowledge. It lacks the redundancy of quick ramping it's twin deck has and I don't know why this should be the case after the first few games. Delver/TNN attacking through Explorer is hilarious if this deck needs the ramping to reach the GSZ/Titan/NO/Eldrazi. Plows on VE wasn't also uncommon and then things start to get ugly and the reduced tools for creating redundancy (Map/cantrips/SDT) kick in. Random Chalice is no game-ender either (even for storm) and no reason to cut all good 1cc spells which would help the deck. I'm highly sceptical.

What Marc is talking about in regards to "counterspell" decks are Blade and Delver variants which pressure you while can afford to hold back 1-2 counterspells for your limited number of threats and outs to their clock, which is a problem considering the slower ramping and lacking redundancy for Glimmerposts effects (Vesuvas & Maps)

In short: if your GSZ/Titan/Explorer doesn't work/is countered, the deck falls apart

[apple713]

Explorer w/o a sac-outlet sucks more than Therapy without Duress/Probe/format Knowledge. It lacks the redundancy of quick ramping it's twin deck has and I don't know why this should be the case after the first few games. Delver/TNN attacking through Explorer is hilarious if this deck needs the ramping to reach the GSZ/Titan/NO/Eldrazi. Plows on VE wasn't also uncommon and then things start to get ugly and the reduced tools for creating redundancy (Map/cantrips/SDT) kick in. Random Chalice is no game-ender either (even for storm) and no reason to cut all good 1cc spells which would help the deck. I'm highly sceptical.

What Marc is talking about in regards to "counterspell" decks are Blade and Delver variants which pressure you while can afford to hold back 1-2 counterspells for your limited number of threats and outs to their clock, which is a problem considering the slower ramping and lacking redundancy for Glimmerposts effects (Vesuvas & Maps)

In short: if your GSZ/Titan/Explorer doesn't work/is countered, the deck falls apart

Thats like saying if a ur deck doesnt stick a delver, pyromancer, or swiftblade it falls apart... The deck is the most played in the format and having only 12 threats with 4 real counterspells.

//Creatures - 7
3 Primeval Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

//Spells - 7
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

As you can see there are a minimum of 14 threats which is greater than ur's 12. 4x chalice can be equatable to 4x force of will, obviously not the same but similar in function. When you add in the veteran explorers you have cards to buy time. Against decks with stp veteran doesnt matter like against stoneblade decks. The match is favorable for me anyways. Sfm is slow and smaller than titan. If they waste the swords on veteran they dont have Have it for titan.

I feel like im spinning my wheels talking to you because you havent played the deck. Take 20 min and plug it into cockatrictlce and test it, or take 30 mins and sleeve it up, i know you have the cards lemnear. Further conversation is speculative vs my experience and thus pointless.

[Lemnear]

Thats like saying if a ur deck doesnt stick a delver, pyromancer, or swiftblade it falls apart... The deck is the most played in the format and having only 12 threats with 4 real counterspells.

//Creatures - 7
3 Primeval Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

//Spells - 7
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

As you can see there are a minimum of 14 threats which is greater than ur's 12.

You undermine the sheer fact that UR Delver or this decks twin run blue to increase the Virtual density of threats or that we talk about the mere manacosts of those threats and the related pressure on the manabase. U vs 4GG with plenty of colorless lands is relevant.

4x chalice can be equatable to 4x force of will, obviously not the same but similar in function.

I know where you are coming from, but being useless on the draw and requiring a Sol Land on turn 1 to do anything serious against the current metagame structure is very limiting even if we ignore the issue of countered manacosts occuring with Chalice or it being a permanent (Decay). My point was about dismissing useful 1cc tools just because (I suspect) Chalice and I have to question that design decision waging the up- & downsides.

When you add in the veteran explorers you have cards to buy time. Against decks with stp veteran doesnt matter like against stoneblade decks. The match is favorable for me anyways. Sfm is slow and smaller than titan. If they waste the swords on veteran they dont have Have it for titan.

I just mentioned why Explorer does nothing against Delver/TNN and does also not affect the combo matchup. I disagree that you can ignore drawing/playing Explorers and their effect in these matchups. You need tools to either stall Delver or accelerate your ramping. Explorer does neither here without a sac outlet.

I have no clue how you can talk about Titan vs SFM without dropping a word about the manacosts. 6GG or 7G (via GSZ) vs 1W isn't even worth taking serious. If they Plow the Explorer and FoW/Daze/Pierce your GSZ you are out of competition. Not caring for the Plow on Explorer in general is ... questionable. Don't you run Natural Orders, needing a green creature to cast it?

I feel like im spinning my wheels talking to you because you havent played the deck. Take 20 min and plug it into cockatrictlce and test it, or take 30 mins and sleeve it up, i know you have the cards lemnear. Further conversation is speculative vs my experience and thus pointless.

I've slammed quite a few games with 12-Post and MUD variants, so the playlines and chokepoints are familiar. After pure goldfishing, I see strategic and Executive weaknesses, in terms of mana development, stalling against aggro, battling Combo, so I wanted to talk about it.

I'm not interrested in another discussion on this board boiling down to "your experience doesn't support my arguments, so it's invalid" and "this list is a bit different from other decks with the same strategy, so all your experience with the archetype is worthless, because you never played THIS DECK in a tournament" like the Legacy TPS thread ended up.

[apple713]

You undermine the sheer fact that UR Delver or this decks twin run blue to increase the Virtual density of threats or that we talk about the mere manacosts of those threats and the related pressure on the manabase. U vs 4GG with plenty of colorless lands is relevant.

im not really sure where you are going with this. Delver decks spend a lot of time digging. If they don't stick an early threat they usually lose against me. If they do stick an early threat then obviously their chances are better. I understand that blue is included to create density, but in this deck you have sylvan library and courser to improve draws, and almost every card pulling other cards out of the deck, titan, fetches, KOTR, veteran, and crop rotation all thin lands. If you are flooding on lands, crop rotate for a eye of ugin, or gsz for a KOTR. Sometimes flooding on lands is ok because glimmer posts buy time.

I know where you are coming from, but being useless on the draw and requiring a Sol Land on turn 1 to do anything serious against the current metagame structure is very limiting even if we ignore the issue of countered manacosts occuring with Chalice or it being a permanent (Decay). My point was about dismissing useful 1cc tools just because (I suspect) Chalice and I have to question that design decision waging the up- & downsides.

requiring a sol land isn't as bad as you think because you can crop rotate for an ancient tomb which is about as effective as running 4x COT and 4x Tombs. Additionally chalice on 1 is still good even if you aren't on the play. Decks playing abrupt decay are good matches and so having it decay'ed isn't much of an issue.

I just mentioned why Explorer does nothing against Delver/TNN and does also not affect the combo matchup. I disagree that you can ignore drawing/playing Explorers and their effect in these matchups. You need tools to either stall Delver or accelerate your ramping. Explorer does neither here without a sac outlet.

idk, a quick equip on a TNN can be troublesome if i stall out but it still get stopped by glacial chasm. Yes veteran isn't optimal against those creatures, but TNN is being played less and less, and even if delver is a problem, a 7 turn clock is fine with me. getting multiple flipped delvers becomes a problem but every deck has issues so yes this can be problematic, but it isn't always...

I have no clue how you can talk about Titan vs SFM without dropping a word about the manacosts. 6GG or 7G (via GSZ) vs 1W isn't even worth taking serious. If they Plow the Explorer and FoW/Daze/Pierce your GSZ you are out of competition. Not caring for the Plow on Explorer in general is ... questionable. Don't you run Natural Orders, needing a green creature to cast it?

so Natural order is the best here and you can just fetch for a dryad arbor eot. NO is T2 castable multiple ways. People do stupid things because they don't know the deck, like STP a dryad arbor and then you drop an explorer. You can't argue swords this and swords that... they have 4 in the deck and drawing 2-3 in the first few turns is an uncommon occurrence. Its not the end of the world either because of cards like natural order. Once you reach critical mana, almost any of your threats can stabilize a game / end it.

I've slammed quite a few games with 12-Post and MUD variants, so the playlines and chokepoints are familiar. After pure goldfishing, I see strategic and Executive weaknesses, in terms of mana development, stalling against aggro, battling Combo, so I wanted to talk about it.

GSZ improves mana development at 1 2 4 and 7 mana. dryad arbor, veteran explorer, courser/KOTR, Primeval.

I'm not interrested in another discussion on this board boiling down to "your experience doesn't support my arguments, so it's invalid" and "this list is a bit different from other decks with the same strategy, so all your experience with the archetype is worthless, because you never played THIS DECK in a tournament" like the Legacy TPS thread ended up.

i don't want that either, but i cannot better explain what you want to know. The only way for you to understand is to pick up the deck. Just do it. it would be faster than writing any further uninformed responses. I would be very interested what you have to say once you see how the changes I have made offset the issues you raise.

[Lemnear]

im not really sure where you are going with this. Delver decks spend a lot of time digging. If they don't stick an early threat they usually lose against me. If they do stick an early threat then obviously their chances are better. I understand that blue is included to create density, but in this deck you have sylvan library and courser to improve draws, and almost every card pulling other cards out of the deck, titan, fetches, KOTR, veteran, and crop rotation all thin lands. If you are flooding on lands, crop rotate for a eye of ugin, or gsz for a KOTR. Sometimes flooding on lands is ok because glimmer posts buy time.

They dig for what? Counterspells and threats. You want so see neither hitting your threats or lifepoints and their threats come down turn 1/2/3. What I was highlighting in the previous posts is that Library or stuff like Courser are clearly inferior setting up defense (digging for Chalice) or a flow on Posts (lifegain & manaboost) compared to options other decks with Post-manabase play. If it wasn't the case, we would see many more Libraries and Co. played in the format, but once more: mana matters. 2cc Libraries and 3-4 mana Coursers can't really compete with variance-reducing tools 100-400% cheaper. Flooding on Posts is fine against aggro; you however play only 8 posts and no Maps. A big difference if you count on Glimmerposts lifegain.

requiring a sol land isn't as bad as you think because you can crop rotate for an ancient tomb which is about as effective as running 4x COT and 4x Tombs. Additionally chalice on 1 is still good even if you aren't on the play. Decks playing abrupt decay are good matches and so having it decay'ed isn't much of an issue.

That isn't true and you know it. Crop Rotation is a 2-for-1 trade which requires green mana and is hilarious bad if countered. Chalice w/o a Tomb or City in the draw is bad unless you play against storm. Talking of storm: they play decay and are by no way a good matchup for this deck.

idk, a quick equip on a TNN can be troublesome if i stall out but it still get stopped by glacial chasm. Yes veteran isn't optimal against those creatures, but TNN is being played less and less, and even if delver is a problem, a 7 turn clock is fine with me. getting multiple flipped delvers becomes a problem but every deck has issues so yes this can be problematic, but it isn't always...

I don't want to nicpick in you plan to gain access to Chasm with only Rotation and Titan to tutor for it, but your math on the Delver matchup ignores the fact, that most lists run Burn or other low-costed critters alongside the Bug-man. We're, in fact, not talking about a 7 turn clock, but about a 5 turn clock in average on top of an additional threat in the SB of UR Delver: Bloodmoon. I'm convinced the combination is nothing to sneeze at. I give you the point in regards to Blade decks and TNN which are likely slower, but they also have tools like C.Priest to fuck with your NO's and GSZ' which make about half your threats. Serious headache potential if you ask me. You're taking thing a bit to easy for my taste and testing.

so Natural order is the best here and you can just fetch for a dryad arbor eot. NO is T2 castable multiple ways. People do stupid things because they don't know the deck, like STP a dryad arbor and then you drop an explorer. You can't argue swords this and swords that... they have 4 in the deck and drawing 2-3 in the first few turns is an uncommon occurrence. Its not the end of the world either because of cards like natural order. Once you reach critical mana, almost any of your threats can stabilize a game / end it.

I never ever consider ANY of my opponents an idiot to waste removal here and there. Plowing Explorer if you attack with Batterskull is fine, if you have Delver/TNN there is no need to and they can save their removal. The trick of fetching Arbor eot is nothing new for an Elves pilot like me, but expecting to resolve a hail mary NO against decks with counterspells or containment priests is. NO is boarded out A LOT in Elves because of that. Mind that this is another, potential 2-for-1 play

GSZ improves mana development at 1 2 4 and 7 mana. dryad arbor, veteran explorer, courser/KOTR, Primeval.

Your list has 9(!) green manasources (plus 2 Diamonds) for turn 1 GSZ for Arbor/Explorer. Titan and Courser even cost double green. Are you trying to sell me this as a stable and reliable way to cast your mana-acceleration even if we ignore stuff like Wasteland or Daze?

i don't want that either, but i cannot better explain what you want to know. The only way for you to understand is to pick up the deck. Just do it. it would be faster than writing any further uninformed responses. I would be very interested what you have to say once you see how the changes I have made offset the issues you raise.

As said before: Picked it up ; goldfished; disliked the direction and playout of the Post/Explorer dualism; started discussion on why to keep this GW instead of U/UG, why this deck lacks Maps/Loam/whatever if you want to keep it mono-green instead

[apple713]

As said before: Picked it up ; goldfished; disliked the direction and playout of the Post/Explorer dualism; started discussion on why to keep this GW instead of U/UG, why this deck lacks Maps/Loam/whatever if you want to keep it mono-green instead

This deck is a blend of multiple decks, Sylvan Plug, Turbo Eldrazi, and Maverick. The combination offsets the weaknesses of each individual with the strengths of the others. The deck has a great early game that doesn't get blown out by combo, and an incredibly strong end game.

GW gives access to Teeg, karakas, quasali, KOTR, and Sigarda. There is no combination of 5 cards that add the utility that these cards provide. If you have suggestions I'm open. You can even look in the sylvan plug thread and find that they splash white for these cards because the value added is unparalleled. Sigarda is probably the only card unique to this deck and its because it just decimates decks that rely on liliana and pox type decks. She has hex proof so she is difficult to remove, and allows survival against an emrakul attack. Unfortunately there isn't a green creature like her that has been printed yet that equalizes delver based decks. If only Stingerfling was cheaper, or had hexpoof / shroud.

UG doesn't offer almost any utility outside of coiling oracle, prime speaker zegana, prophet of kruphix, trygon predator, and stoic angel. None of these really do anything for the deck except stoic angel.

sure blue has S&T but imo Natural order is so much better because it can tutor up a creature not in my hand. It serves as another way to access silver bullets such as Ruric who closes out most combo matches that you seem so skeptical about. He also closes a lot of delver matches too because they'd have to bolt him twice and take 12 damage in the process... He can be uncountable with caverns, and he can be bounced with karakas.



You can look at my approach this way and it might make more sense

Chalice is so strong right now but are weak to itself due to lack of consistency: +GSZ
Sylvan plug plays chalice and GSZ but plays conditional cards: -choke, -trinisphere
make chalice reliably castable t1: + ancient tomb + crop rotation
Develop sure fire win condition: +8 post +eldrazi +titans
12 post's weakness are combo decks, and other fast aggro decks: +NO, +ruric
How can i accelerate mana and get other added benefits: +Dryad arbor, +veteran explorer +courser, +KOTR

*Trinisphere and Choke both suck in multiples and even if you don't get multiples they are dead cards half the time


If you don't like the veteran explorer route, suggest a better way to improve RUG / UR 4-5 card slots (3 explorer, 1 titan, 1 kozelik).

you can try punishing fire and groves by taking out explorers and basics but with no reliable way to tutor for pfire you haven't really solved the problem just created less reliable solution. Maybe choke + tabernacle is best against those decks. Crop, KOTR, prime titan can fetch tabernacle, and choke you'll need to draw into via library or hope that chalice buys you enough time.

The best approach would be if a green creature was printed (likely to be splashed with red) that could get the weenie situation under control.

[Lemnear]

This deck is a blend of multiple decks, Sylvan Plug, Turbo Eldrazi, and Maverick. The combination offsets the weaknesses of each individual with the strengths of the others. The deck has a great early game that doesn't get blown out by combo, and an incredibly strong end game.

Come on ... chalice doesn't make this Plug; KotR doesn't make this Maverick. Running Explorer (which reauires basics) without sac outlets and Posts in a single deck is a stretch especially if you want to run two colors. 12-Post struggles with this problem even while running more library manipulation. The deck gets blown out by combo. Chalice/3Sphere do nothing against SneakShow or Decay, ergo you are left with Teeg/NO which have the beforementioned consistancy issues by requiring 2 colored mana

GW gives access to Teeg, karakas, quasali, KOTR, and Sigarda. There is no combination of 5 cards that add the utility that these cards provide. If you have suggestions I'm open. You can even look in the sylvan plug thread and find that they splash white for these cards because the value added is unparalleled. Sigarda is probably the only card unique to this deck and its because it just decimates decks that rely on liliana and pox type decks. She has hex proof so she is difficult to remove, and allows survival against an emrakul attack. Unfortunately there isn't a green creature like her that has been printed yet that equalizes delver based decks. If only Stingerfling was cheaper, or had hexpoof / shroud.

You have even less white manasources than green ones and all the creatures listed here require GW and are singletons. We're going in cycles here. It's pointless to discuss effects if you ignore the challenge/issues with gaining access and casting those cards.

UG doesn't offer almost any utility outside of coiling oracle, prime speaker zegana, prophet of kruphix, trygon predator, and stoic angel. None of these really do anything for the deck except stoic angel.

Erm ... Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, S&T, Counterspells, Treasure Cruise, etc.? They do nothing for the decks consistancy? Seriously?

sure blue has S&T but imo Natural order is so much better because it can tutor up a creature not in my hand. It serves as another way to access silver bullets such as Ruric who closes out most combo matches that you seem so skeptical about. He also closes a lot of delver matches too because they'd have to bolt him twice and take 12 damage in the process... He can be uncountable with caverns, and he can be bounced with karakas.

Yeah it can tutor IF you have a creature in play. Want to point at your 4 fetches to grab Arbor eot? Hope not. I point at S&T NOT needing 2 colored mana and NO need to expose/drop/tutor an Explorer/Arbor to cast it, but slam your fatty into play you draw naturally or dig for (cantrips?). Less Colors, less manacosts total, less investment if countered ... thats what I care for. I don't care for how good your gamewinner is if resolved, but for how to resolve it in the first place.

If you don't like the veteran explorer route, suggest a better way to improve RUG / UR 4-5 card slots (3 explorer, 1 titan, 1 kozelik).

you can try punishing fire and groves by taking out explorers and basics but with no reliable way to tutor for pfire you haven't really solved the problem just created less reliable solution. Maybe choke + tabernacle is best against those decks. Crop, KOTR, prime titan can fetch tabernacle, and choke you'll need to draw into via library or hope that chalice buys you enough time.

The best approach would be if a green creature was printed (likely to be splashed with red) that could get the weenie situation under control.

There comes my MUD experience into play asking how Burn or UR Delver should win if you drop turn 1 Map into turn 2 Chalice into turn 3 Batterskull? I play Batterskull + Wurmcoil in MUD and the UR matchup is laughable easy. No need to bother with colors either, just riding the strengh of the 12-post manabase crushing all aggro decks in the format and trumping Miracles (terminus against Batterskull?) with Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi

[apple713]

blah blah blah

Why are you even posting? Maybe your english is so bad you dont realize how worthless your responses are.

Blah blah blah.. Technicalities classifying the deck

Blah blah blah i didnt test the manabase but its not good

Blah blah blah lets pack the deck full of 1 cmc canttips and blow ourselves out of the game with chalice at 1

Everything is so wrong because the numbers dont look right maybe i should test the deck and adjust them

Let bitch about high cmc spells then put more 5 and 6 cmc spells into the deck.

[Lemnear]

Why are you even posting? Maybe your english is so bad you dont realize how worthless your responses are.

Blah blah blah.. Technicalities classifying the deck

Blah blah blah i didnt test the manabase but its not good

Blah blah blah lets pack the deck full of 1 cmc canttips and blow ourselves out of the game with chalice at 1

Everything is so wrong because the numbers dont look right maybe i should test the deck and adjust them

Let bitch about high cmc spells then put more 5 and 6 cmc spells into the deck.

My english as my third language (not counting bavarian), must be pretty bad if I have to write three fucking times that I tested the crappy abdomination you call a manabase and you still claim I didn't test it because I keep hinting on flaws between running GW cards, Cloudpost manabase but no proper way to fix the mana or draws.

Hard to believe that I seriously have to outline that you might have to switch to other disruption tools than Chalice if you run cantrips. I had hoped that is comprehendable and obvious that we then might want to Ponder about Thorn/FoW/Trinisphere instead, but yeah

You still don't get that there is a difference between Titan for double green or single colored mana spells like Treasure Crusie which you can cast off Post-mana to draw into your bombs if your opponent doesn't attack your hand and board, but becomes cheaper to cast if your opponent disrupts you and helps to recover fom Hymn or Wasteland. It's basically a win-win card in this shell, but you obviously do not bother thinking about options or problems, right?