In their most recent episode, the Brainstorm Show talked about a Grixis Control list that they're excited about. The discussion starts at around 1:49.
// Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Kolaghan’s Command
// Sorceries
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
// Enchantments
1 Blood Moon
2 Bitterblossom
// Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
// Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
Without having listened to the episode (time reasons, will come back to it), i'm a little unsure of Bitterblossom without a way to remove it. Decay etc.. I'd tend to agree with previous posts, in that i'd rather have Lilly. Not totally convinced by going Blood Moon heavy when it looks like there are more basics floating around, either. I will listen to the 'cast later though.
After not having played this deck for ages I've been looking at a few different lists and put this together, heavily inspired by the brainstorm show's list:
Main:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabloic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell
SB:
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast
Sideboard isn't well thought out at all, I haven't done any sideboard mapping, and is just something I threw together and will have to adapt as I play the deck more.
The most notable thing about this list would probably be the choice to not play jtms or liliana, the last hope, and instead playing chandra, torch of defiance and keranos.
My reasoning for playing keranos is that, even though it's a bit weaker, does nothing the turn you play it, and is an additional mana to cast, is that it's much harder to interact with, as aside from countering it, the only cards that really do and see any play are council's judgment and unexpectedly absent, as opposed to the pyroblasts (once in play), punishing fires, revokers, bolts, hexmages, and other random crap that might kill for example a jtms. As a bonus, it also dodges spell pierce and gaddock teeg.
The reason I like chandra is that you're using a plus ability to get value out of her, making her a bit more resilient than jtms, even if she's not quite as powerful of a magic card. She also dodges pyroblast completely, which I think is pretty strong.
Both of these cards obviously dodge abrupt decay as well, and are also considerably easier to cast through blood moon, which I think is significant enough to warrant a mention, since that's something you're actively looking to land vs a lot of decks post sideboard.
Thoughts?
Anybody considered The Scarab God in this Deck since DRS is not a concern anymore?
Cross-posting from the Czech Pile thread:
Yesterday I ran the Grixis Control list that the Brainstorm Show podcast guys talked about through a League and went 5-0. The list is:
4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bitterblossom
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique
I really liked Gurmag and Bitterblossom. Sticking an early BB against most control decks or even decks you generally have a hard time closing out allowed me to have the constant pressure that control decks like this can lack sometimes. Sometimes fetching the basics to play around wastelands was awkward, but without any main deck hymns, it's not too bad. The amount of wastelands that were invalidated from my opponents I miss hymns, but this deck having four MD targeted removal makes up for it a bit. Next time I run it through a league, I'll likely move the MD moon to the side for another JTMS or other sticky threat.
Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.
In this Discord now we have two different sections:
- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)
Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.
If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!
I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!
All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat
https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd
You’re also free to create new invite.
I made a similar post in the Czech Pile thread but I want to post here to get the most attention. I have been looking at Wilson Hunter's new Grixis Control list and I think it's a good underdog choice for the current meta. It has answers to a lot of things other decks will be doing and I can't help but feel that very few opponents will see it coming.
For reference, the list is:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Blood Moon
2 Bitterblossom
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique
However, there are a couple of card choices that I don't really understand and I want to know if someone can help explain them to me.
1. Bitterblossom
This card seems to be making rounds in Grixis Delver and Control lists. I have heard a lot of people talk about how Miracles has such a hard time against it but how strong is it against them? How is it against decks like delver or Death & Taxes?
2. Blood Moon
With the change in the meta, there has been a shift away from greedy manabases and more basics have been coming out. The list above runs 1 Moon in the main and 2 in the SB. I can see Moon being effective against something like RUG delver but how good is it against the rest of the meta?
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
Yeah, I've listened to that Podcast (was a good one!) and how one of them (the guy that created it) went pretty in depth about his configuration.
There are a few points I'd like to address when looking at lists that lean more on 1CMC discard, 1CMC permission and drop Hymn altogether:
- I've found out that while it does make the deck a lot leaner - which is better vs RUG (for example), it does drain a lot of the power out of the deck itself. Hymn is still one hell of a card and outside of RUG Delver and UR Delver (which was never a T1 thing), there aren't really decks out there that run Daze.
Even with manadenial being out there, just getting to 2 mana and slamming Hymn still feels extremely powerful and something we should think about utilizing, since it plays into our gameplan of grinding them out of resources while we're gathering ours.
I'm not saying 1CMC discard is bad, not at all - but, I do feel that it might play a roll next to 2 to 3 Hymns (and maybe a few in the Side).
- Blood Moon:
When reading their Sideboard Mapping section, the extra Blood Moons actually only come in vs RUG Delver, BUG Delver (not even a thing at the moment), Eldrazi , Loam and Lands. I think that's pretty narrow, even though I can think of stuff like MUD and BUG Control, if that's ever going to be a thing.
The costs of playing with Blood Moon is pretty heavy. Not only is that list running 6 basics, including a mountain - which I feel is just wrong - it also turns off your own fetches which we usually run 10 to 11 of. Besides, a T3 Blood Moon in Legacy is just ... bleh. I dunno, this isn't Modern. People can also telegraph Blood Moon when they see you fetching basics when they're not even on Wasteland and while we're not 4C anymore, the color requirements are definitely still there. Besides, it's also a slight non-bo with the Gurmags, since the fetches do actually matter with powering them out.
I think running with an Island + Swamp is still correct - maybe a 3rd basic; depends on the build and the meta. I can see a list running on Spell Pierce, Counterspell and Jace running with double island or a build leaning on Hymn's and Liliana running with double swamp. Not a huge fan of it, but it's definitely a possibility.
- Bitterblossom:
I've always thought of Bitterblossom as a real threat and I know Grixis Delver was experimenting with it at the end of the last meta. I can definitely see merits in running it, but it's extremely slow and there is no way to stabilize our life total with DRS now being gone. I don't really know how I feel about this. Great vs Miracles and control decks, always has been and while - in theory - it's great vs RUG Delver due to the tokens chumping for days, it also is an extremely tempo-negative card and plays towards their gameplan a bit. From their sideboard mapping, it comes out vs RUG anyways.(edited)
The upside is that it's a threat that, while anemic at first, doesn't require any further investment and enables you to keep on clocking (slowly) while digging for permission and discard.
Having played this deck both with and without blood moon in the past, I feel like even though it's not amazing in the deck, you more or less need it to have any hope of winning vs lands, at least in my experience.
I don't really agree. I mean, I'm not packing 4 Blue Blast to make Burn a more winnable matchup, for example. The new lists can put on a bit more pressure via Gurmag and I've experienced a better Lands matchup - but, that might also be 'cause I'm running 2x Wasteland, 2x Needle and 3x Surgical in the Side; those feel a lot less narrow than Blood Moon.
I think blue blast vs burn is a poor comparision, something like chill is probably closer, or warmth out of a white deck, in the sense that while the card might be a bit narrow, resolving it is almost game over in the matchups where you want it, and since lands is a deck I'd really not sit across from, I'm fine with having it in my sideboard. And it's also not bad vs delver, which is nice.
Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that the Czech Pile thread in DTB is still currently active with Grixis Control discussion. There's some good stuff going on in there too so I just wanted to give you the heads up! I think that thread will end up being changed or consolidated so we can work toward one thread eventually. I think the deck is still very good.
edit: well I see that was already alluded to in a few posts above, but I'll leave this to reiterate and post some thoughts below!
I'm not in love with TNN in this deck. I feel like he kind of has to be alongside equipment right now. It pitches to Force of Will and I guess blocks decently and that's all it has going in my opinion. The clock isn't particularly fast and he doesn't generate any value coming into play. Sword isn't really everywhere, it's basically in two archetypes, Miracles which can already Terminus/Verdict/Judgement your TNNs and Death and Taxes which I think is a positive matchup. So I'm not super worried there and the clock is just so much better with Angler. I'm currently on 2 Angler 0 TNN in the 75 and liking it but I am definitely open minded so if enough people keep coming back to TNN I can give it a shot.
In my opinion it would be better to have extra Planeswalkers in the sideboard if you need more threats there, since they are harder to deal with even than TNN IMO, and have additional utility in other matchups.
I think our deck is so value driven that we don't need to "play games" or try to gambit our opponent by sideboarding in TNNs when we think the opponent will leave StP, siding them out when we think they'll cut etc. I'm happy to play against Swords, I can't tell you how good it feels when your Strix or Snapcaster Mage gets StP'd.
Exactly. A second Lili in the sideboard is a very good choice if you want another threat IMO. It's basically insta GG against Elves/Goblins, very good against DnT, and also fine against grindy matchups where you can get to Ulti. I ultied my Lili 3 times(!) in the last tournament I played, it was sweet (find a writeup in the Cz Pile thread if you're interested)
Hmm. I am pretty dubious on Chandra and Keranos. Chandra is just a worse Jace that doesn't pitch to Force in my eyes (and Jace is on pitch to Force duty quite a decent amount, I've found). And Keranos costs a million mana at sorcery speed which is tough vs Wasteland/Port decks. I could see it being good once it resolved against like DnT and Miracles, but I just don't see that happening very often (due to land hate our counterspells). How has he been in testing? You make some fine points about Blood Moon, not dying to Pyroblast etc but I think Jace is just better enough that it's not worth it. And Lili Last Hope is amazing in a lot of matchups, would highly recommend running one.
I also am very low on Inquisition of Kozilek, in Legacy in general I basically think it is just incorrect to play over Thoughtseize 99% of the time. There are too many blockbuster 4+ spells that we have to get rid of (Jace, Ad Nauseam, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, etc etc) and the lifeloss isn't super consequential given that we aren't playing with shocklands
Hmm, seems a bit too expensive/not enough immediate impact. I'd probably just rather have another Jace if I needed a big expensive threat, or a Gurmag Angler for an easier to power out fatty.
I'm pretty high on four 1CMC discard spells right now. The meta got a bit more combo oriented with the loss of DRS in my eyes, and Thoughtseize is just so much better than Hymn in those matchups. We already have a pretty strong game against grindy matchups, as well, and I think getting the extra percentage points vs combo while leaving a couple Hymns in the board is the right idea. It's also easier on the manabase and better vs Wasteland/Port, and lastly gives us some more stuff to do T1 than just Ponder (since Brainstorm T1 isn't really where you want to be at -- I'm also running a couple Preordain for that reason as well).
Blood Moon I don't have enough of a read on. I played two in my sideboard at the event I won last weekend and it was a game ender in one match, but a weird one vs Steel Stompy so not exactly a tiered list. I would be fine cutting them, as playing one is kind of awkward and it would just free up some slots. I think I'll try that in the next event and see if I miss them. I don't at all think you need any more than three basics (2 Island 1 Swamp) to play Blood Moon though. 6 basics is bonkers. And I think T3 Blood Moon in a deck that's able to control the board and hand until then is fine. But yeah I'll try swapping them out for maybe a Bitterblossom and another K Command or something (got a fair amount of DnT in my meta) and see how that works.
Bitterblossom also not enough read on, I love the card though. I think it's pretty much only good vs Miracles or mirror and that maybe we can do better in the slot. What else would you bring it in for? Seems bad vs RUG Delver, too slow, hurts us, and just playing it to get to chump block is unattractive to me. The only thing is that if another deck brings IN Bitterblossom against us, we're going to have a hard time dealing with it basically save for Engineered Explosives. So if it does somehow get popular might be right to run 1 or 2 somewhere.
Agreed. From my experiences Lands is a very tough matchup. I can't really see how we would win consistently in anywhere near an acceptable % without Blood Moon. Maybe my sideboard is just not fully equipped to handle it. Burn is so much less of the meta than Lands that I would be okay dedicating a couple anti-lands slots (with utility elsewhere) whereas I wouldn't burn (I'm not even on any Hydroblasts at all anymore now that Moon itself isn't that great against us)
I took quite some time to find this thread, wonder why no one posts anything recently although this deck is very hot now.
I am new to this deck and play it in small tournament twice recently.
Here is my result:
2-0 vs Steel Stompy
2-1 vs Sneak&show
2-1 vs Eldrazi Post Ramp
2-0 vs Esper Bladecontrol
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Infect
Seems very sweet.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
Because Grixis wasn’t already good enough
Oh yes it’s flashbackable and doesn’t require you counter the first like Surgical Extraction.
Dulcis in Fundo: it gets lands. Dark Depths, Karakas and so on
Day 2'd the SCG Legacy Open in Baltimore with Grixis Control.
Report to come.
How come no one plays grixis control with 2 counterbalance instead of 2 hymns. less aggro on turn 2 Black Black and seems pretty high value all around
#Unmoored ego is just slightly better than Lost Legacy, a card that nobody plays and it gets lands too. Grixis control is a deck packing a lot of permission: you don't really need to tap out for 3 sorcery when you can remove instant-speed with Surgical Extraction or maybe maaaaybe Extirpate. This card does not keep up with format average power level.
#Counterbalance requires too much setup. In fact, many UWx Miracles are dropping it, let alone playing it here. You ain't miracles, you tend to tap out, you play less Jaces (1-2 opposed to 2-3) and cantrips (8 instead of 10-12): no way you can constantly keep track of what's on top. Moreover, you speak about t2 hymn and how it's prone to hate/wasteland. Well, t2 counterbalance could be less prone to aggro, except it literally timewalks the opponent and you're left with a blind flip wondering what's on the top of your deck. Miracle decks can sometimes do that because they allow problems to happen and then they fix them later. Grixis control does not play like that, that's why you play discard instead of cb. Also playing cb>hymn while still packing other 4 selective discard spells is a bit of a nonbo.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)