Page 11 of 25 FirstFirst ... 78910111213141521 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 496

Thread: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves

  1. #201

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Anybody else see that Pyromancer Ascension tech? Seems pretty cheeky.

  2. #202

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Ended up 19th at GP Lille with Grixis Control. The list was built with Pierre Dagen (who played more or less the same deck), that I thank very much. Also Thanks to JosephK and Medvedev for helping :).

    1 [UNH] Island
    2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
    3 [R] Underground Sea
    4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
    4 [R] Volcanic Island
    4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
    1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 [ZEN] Pyromancer Ascension
    1 [DIS] Spell Snare
    2 [7E] Counterspell
    2 [5E] Pyroblast
    3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
    4 [CNS] Brainstorm
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
    4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
    4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
    4 [M12] Ponder
    4 [M11] Preordain
    SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
    SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
    SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
    SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
    SB: 1 [UNH] Mountain
    SB: 1 [7E] Meekstone
    SB: 1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
    SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
    SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
    SB: 2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
    SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

    R3. Aggro Loam 0-2
    R4. Grixis Delver 2-0
    R5. Bug Delver 0-2
    R6. Omnishow 2-1
    R7. Miracle 2-0
    R8. Omnishow 2-0
    R9. Bug Delver 2-1
    R10. Omnishow 2-0
    R11. Miracle 2-0
    R12. Omnishow 2-0
    R13. Burn 1-2 (nice guy, very interesting games)
    R14. Reanimator 2-0
    R15. Grixis Control 2-0

  3. #203
    Member

    Join Date

    Jul 2015
    Location

    Austin, TX
    Posts

    11

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Jizz View Post
    Ended up 19th at GP Lille with Grixis Control. The list was built with Pierre Dagen (who played more or less the same deck), that I thank very much. Also Thanks to JosephK and Medvedev for helping :).

    1 [UNH] Island
    2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
    3 [R] Underground Sea
    4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
    4 [R] Volcanic Island
    4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
    1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 [ZEN] Pyromancer Ascension
    1 [DIS] Spell Snare
    2 [7E] Counterspell
    2 [5E] Pyroblast
    3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
    4 [CNS] Brainstorm
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
    4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
    4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
    4 [M12] Ponder
    4 [M11] Preordain
    SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
    SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
    SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
    SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
    SB: 1 [UNH] Mountain
    SB: 1 [7E] Meekstone
    SB: 1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
    SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
    SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
    SB: 2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
    SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

    R3. Aggro Loam 0-2
    R4. Grixis Delver 2-0
    R5. Bug Delver 0-2
    R6. Omnishow 2-1
    R7. Miracle 2-0
    R8. Omnishow 2-0
    R9. Bug Delver 2-1
    R10. Omnishow 2-0
    R11. Miracle 2-0
    R12. Omnishow 2-0
    R13. Burn 1-2 (nice guy, very interesting games)
    R14. Reanimator 2-0
    R15. Grixis Control 2-0
    Congratulations on the great finish :D Thanks for sharing, if you feel like writing up a tournament report I'm sure you'll have some interested readers!

  4. #204
    In Response...
    exallium's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2014
    Location

    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Posts

    281

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    From my limited playing, Ascension feels very strong. I can normally turn it on very quickly, sometimes on the same turn due to the amount of redundancy in the deck. Flashing back a therapy with an elemental token, making a new token and copying it? Grounds for concession.

    -- EDIT --

    In your opinions, what's the best way to deal with Shardless?

    I played against it this morning and found that it was a bit of a beating. If they get a large board presence there isn't much we can do. Rakdos Charm and Kolaghan's command are both allstars in the matchup of course, and I feel like Blood Moon is very strong, but probably only in Game 2.

    I'm assuming they side out forces? Maybe our best approach here is to use our blasts selectively on visions, and try to grind their hand away, getting rid of Goyfs and other threats with Therapy.

    Pyromancer is great if you can keep them off of Deluge or Charm. Tasigur feels like a must as well. All of the threats in my build (YP, Snap, TNN) die to Golgari Charm and Deluge, whereas Tassy is very hard for them to remove.

    I'm playing this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9964&d=257457&f=LE

    And boarded like so:

    +1 Tassigur, +2 Needle, +3 Blast, +2 Rakdos Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Blood Moon
    -4 Force, -3 Therapy, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain

    I think next time I will keep in a Preordain and only bring in 1 Needle, as it's good against the meiser's Jitte or to help stave off DRS and save our bolts for a more worthy target. YP makes Lili bad by himself.

    I'm also interested in holding off of Blood Moon, and boarding back into Therapies in G3 if they saw BM G2. This is because they'll be playing around it, and we can make their mana worse and make our black cards better just by posing the threat. Using Therapy and Blast to keep them off threats and refilling their hand seems like a win.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by exallium; 07-16-2015 at 09:11 AM.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  5. #205
    Member

    Join Date

    Jul 2015
    Location

    Austin, TX
    Posts

    11

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by exallium View Post
    I'm assuming they side out forces? Maybe our best approach here is to use our blasts selectively on visions, and try to grind their hand away, getting rid of Goyfs and other threats with Therapy.

    Pyromancer is great if you can keep them off of Deluge or Charm. Tasigur feels like a must as well. All of the threats in my build (YP, Snap, TNN) die to Golgari Charm and Deluge, whereas Tassy is very hard for them to remove.

    I'm playing this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9964&d=257457&f=LE

    And boarded like so:

    +1 Tassigur, +2 Needle, +3 Blast, +2 Rakdos Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Blood Moon
    -4 Force, -3 Therapy, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain
    I play Shardless as my main deck and Grixis Control as a secondary / pet. From my experience as Shardless sides out 4 Forces and 1 or 2 Jaces. What they bring in depends on their board. What I bring in is: 2/3 Leyline of the Void, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Deluge or Pulse (if I think you're running Planeswalkers or fatties).

    Blood Moon is a beating. I Would never side it out game 3, Shardless is a tap out strategy, if they are not tapping out, you're doing fine. If they are not drawing cards and killing stuff, they are losing.

    I like the Dismember, Blood Moon, and the blasts. I don't think removing their graveyard is where you want to be. Deff would keep the Therapies and the cantrip in. I mean.. that's what Grixis does.

    Hope this helps

    Edit: I hadn't looked at your list yet. This is why I do not like True-name in that setup. Everything dies to 'golgari charm' effects. Cheers

  6. #206
    Site Contributor
    warfordium's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Vancouver
    Posts

    211

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    played the 2x Ascension list in a 5-rounder on Saturday—i cut two singletons (Diabolic Edict and Mana Leak) and went to 4 Ponder/2 Preordain instead of 3/3.

    Beat Miracles 3x, lost to Merfolk (Chalice 1 in G1 and parade of Lords in G2) and UWR Delver (fell victim to Wasteland on my lone Volc with Terminate and Bolt in hand). ended 9th on breakers.

    Activating it against Miracles is lights out, especially with active counter-top. I didn't activate it in games against the 2 non-Miracles decks, though doubling up on removal would have been nice in those cases. I will probably cut them and just go back to more removal in the main and leave the Miracles hate in the sideboard. While cute, the Rakdos Charm is probably inferior to a 2nd Surgical Extraction. Also, not sure about the singleton Blood Moon. Maybe with more removal buying time to find it, but against UWR and BUG Delver the clock and interaction are both real.

    Deck:

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Murderous Cut
    1 Terminate

    2 Pyromancer Ascension

    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Force of Will
    3 Dig Through Time
    1 Counterspell
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard:

    1 Keranos, God of Storms
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Slaughter Games
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Murderous Cut
    1 Fire Covenant
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I'm not saying sugarcoat the tournament scene, that's impossible, but for God's sake just act like a damned grown-up. Be polite, play fast-ish but allow for a little thought now and then, represent the rules to the best of your ability and be a good sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    WotC fucks up something computer related. Film @ 11.
    @warfordium on twitter.

  7. #207
    Salt of the earth

    Join Date

    May 2009
    Location

    Canada
    Posts

    4,685

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Yeah, if you DID lose to Miracles here, I would have assumed you were drunk or something.

    Nice job. Too bad on the finish.

    -Matt

  8. #208
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeloss View Post
    I play Shardless as my main deck and Grixis Control as a secondary / pet. From my experience as Shardless sides out 4 Forces and 1 or 2 Jaces. What they bring in depends on their board. What I bring in is: 2/3 Leyline of the Void, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Deluge or Pulse (if I think you're running Planeswalkers or fatties).

    Blood Moon is a beating. I Would never side it out game 3, Shardless is a tap out strategy, if they are not tapping out, you're doing fine. If they are not drawing cards and killing stuff, they are losing.
    I play Shardless as my main deck too, that's pretty spot on SBing (cut Jaces and Forces for Leylines and sweepers).

    Blood Moon is either exceptional, or very weak. Try and pay attention to G1 if they play discard as it's the best way to find out if or how many basics they might be playing. As a rough guide (don't take it as gospel), if you see Thoughtseize it's the 'US Shardless' and they're more likely to have no basics or a single Swamp. If you see no discard, good chance it's the 'EU Shardless' and you can expect a Forest and a Swamp. I fetch these asap vs Grixis as I know there's a good chance there's a moon post-SB. Also, the latter generally doesn't play Golgari Charm.

  9. #209

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    I went to an 18 person local tournament last night with the following deck:

    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Baleful Strix
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Vendilion Clique

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell
    1 Pyroblast

    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Cabal Therapy

    4 Dig Through Time
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    1 Mountain
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Island
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island

    SB:
    1 Null Rod
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Rakdos Charm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Terminate
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Sulfur Elemental

    I threw the sideboard together pretty quickly, trying to include a variety of answers to Goyf/Gurmag, combo, and D&T. In the maindeck I didn't have a 4th Cabal Therapy so I put in a 2nd Preordain.

    I'm pretty new to this deck, so there are some things I really need to improve on; particularly sideboarding, and when to cast my threats (do I jam YP turn 2? or wait to get value off it immediately). I didn't take notes, so I'll try to get the details correct.

    Round 1, 4c Delver
    I had just finished putting my deck together, so I was a little on edge, and I think it really effected my play. I was not in the mindset of playing around daze/stifle, and in G1 I got hit by each of those. That disruption was enough to put me back long enough to not be able to handle his Goyf when he forced it through. Game 2 went a little longer, but my two-mana answers to goyf proved too slow to do the job. I think Innocent Blood really shines here.
    SB: Terminate, Innocent Blood, Echoing Truth, and blasts were not enough to stop his threats
    2-0 (0-1)

    Round 2, Extract Homebrew
    Fun match against a friendly player who brought his own build filled with some discard and extraction effects.
    2-0 (1-1)

    Round 3, BUG delver
    G1 was a grindy game where I stuck a Jace early, spent a few turns bouncing his Goyf, stabilized with a TNN, and eventually Jace won it for me through massive CA. G2 was the opposite, where he stuck an early Lili, and there wasn't much I could do. We had very little time for G3, but when time was called I had Terminated a goyf, bolt-killed a Lili, and stuck a Baleful Strix, so I feel confidant I could have won that.
    1-1-1 (1-1-1)

    Round 4, Sort of Mirror match
    In game 1 we both sat cantripping for a few turns, and he finally stuck a YP. The difference maker was when I stuck my YP but had a Cabal Therapy to follow up. In one of the following games I was able to stick the TNN and rode it to victory.
    2-0? 2-1? (2-1-1)

    Round 5, A friend with Nic Fit
    I knew his deck, but not this matchup. Jace won me one game after I Therapied and countered his early creatures. Having basics of my own the get with Veteran Explorer was nice. G2 I finally got some use out of the Null Rod in my sideboard by turning off his Tops. I think I won this with creatures after putting him in topdeck mode.
    2-0 (3-1-1)

    My record was good enough to get 4th which was a nice surprise! I had written off any shot at prizes after facing two Goyf decks early on. Which leads me to some of my biggest concerns with this deck and the sideboard: how do we deal with all the cheap threats that get thrown at us?? The Atog Lord summed the problem up nicely before:
    The real threat out of Delver are the creatures. They can be too fast and too well-defended. And the Grixis delver deck in particular is designed to be resilient to removal.

    Against RUG Delver, I have been thinking that Edict effects are strong; Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict are very interesting options. Of course, the mean introducing Black as a main color again, but that isn't the end of the world.

    Things are more difficult against Grixis Delver. Edict effects get much worse against Young Pyromancer. Targeted removal doesn't do anything against True Name Nemesis. And cards like Marsh Casualties are embarrassing against everyone's favorite Zombie Fish. It isn't an easy problem to solve.
    I went for a variety of answers in my sideboard and it went okay. I think we have a good deck to run 1-offs because of the 4 DTT. I might try -1 Terminate +1 Innocent Blood in my sideboard. Innocent Blood is great when we have 0 creatures out, or our main threat, Young Pyromancer. It is effective against the big threats if we are able to pick off the smaller creatures with bolts. It is not good against YP, but maybe we just have to hope that we are the better YP deck, and can make more tokens faster.

  10. #210

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Some more thoughts on my report above:

    Another solution to threats (minus YP and TNN) would be to increase the number of Baleful Strix. I didn't play any combo at that tournament so the Clique felt pretty sub-par. I might test -1 Clique +1 Strix, and see if the rest of my deck's disruption is enough to deal with the combo decks.

    Echoing truth could be moved to the mainboard as a versatile answer. It's been done before by others, I might try it myself. Truth + Therapy is a nice way to permanently deal with something.

    Being unfamiliar with the deck, I had some issues with the manabase. Generally against Stifle/Wasteland decks I would fetch basic Island turn 1 so I can cantrip. Then Fetch a mountain or USea if i wanted to Therapy or jam a YP (this might just be a bad idea). Then there were times where I would find myself without 2 Blue mana available (eg. if my Sea got wasted, or my next fetch got stifled). And my list ran LOTS of 'UU' spells, (9 off the top of my head). Maybe I just prioritize fetching double basic island first? That way I'll always have the ability to Dig through my deck and play out my threats/disruption when it is safe.

  11. #211
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Alphen aan den Rijn, NL
    Posts

    28

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Hi all,

    I'm new to the deck as well. Went to a local tournament with 19 people on saturday. Normally I play Shardless, but I feel it's not as strong as it was a year ago so I decided to sleeve up Grixis.

    My list:
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    4 Young Pyromancer
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    1 True Name Nemesis
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dig Through Time
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Forked Bolt
    4 Force of Will
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Pyroblast

    SB:
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Electrickery
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Wipe Away
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Pithing Needle

    I wanted to play a couple of one-offs in my MD to see how I liked them. The only one that was underperforming was Forked Bolt.

    R1: Jund 2-0 (1-0)
    In both games I could answer his early plays and he lost to the extreme amounts of CA the deck provides.
    R2: ANT (2-0) (2-0)
    Close games, but I had too much disruption and counter magic. He couldn't really go for the kill at any point in the matches.
    R3: Nivmagus combo 2-0 (3-0)
    This was really not a match. We have all the answers we need.
    R4: RG Lands ID (3-0-1) played for fun and I lost 1-2. I didn't yet know how to play against the deck.
    I won the first match. After sb he had a quick CotV on 1 in both games which was terrible for me. I didn't find an answer of a Blood Moon so the games were not going my way.
    R5: don't remember what he played... ID (3-0-2)
    QF: Miracles 2-1
    It was an easy game preboard. The second game he had all the answers and killed me with his Monastery Mentor. In the third game I Therapy'd his SDT's and Pyroblasted his CB. I went all in on my YP and got him to 2 life went he miracled a Terminus. He had a follow up Mentor, but I found a Bolt on top.
    SF: RG Lands (same guy) 2-0
    Again I won the preboard game, which is good for us. The second game I had it all. T1: Probe into Therapy into Extraction for all Loams (noticing while searching his library that he played no basics, which is a good thing when you have Blood Moon in hand). T3 Blood Moon with double FoW back up for Mox Diamond was enough.
    F: Grixis Delver 1-2
    Grindy games where I won the first game. He won the second. I was very well positioned in the third game but he topdecked a few very good cards and beat me in the end. It was a fun match with a lot of thrash talk from us and the audience and pretty much everyone agreed that my opponent drew extremely well in G3.

    Notes on the deck:
    The main deck Extraction, Pyroblast and Flusterstorm were extremely good. The same goes for the sac effects in the deck. I wouldn't go for less than three or four.
    The card I didn't like was Forked Bolt. I'll probably replace that with an Echoing Truth next saturday.

    2nd place in my first small tournament with the deck is a pretty good start. Next saturday I'll probably be in Amsterdam with the deck. I might try Massacre in the sb since there are quite a few D&T players there.
    I'll let you guys know how it went.

  12. #212

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    How do you feel about using Sulfur Elemental as an answer to D&T instead of Massacre or Dread of Night? I haven't had much experience with it yet, but in theory it seems like the elemental has some big plus sides: it's a persistent effect, it can be flashed in, it is nearly uncounterable, and it double as a beater. It seems like a strong answer to D&T as well as Mentor decks (particularly Mentor-Miracles, because the Elemental is a near-uncounterable threat).

    I've also been thinking of including a 1-off Spell Snare. It seems like a lot of the cards we worry about are 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyro, Chalice on 1, Counterbalance. Most decks have some 2cmc spell worth countering, so it will rarely be totally dead (although it does seem very poor against Omni-Tell).

  13. #213
    Salt of the earth

    Join Date

    May 2009
    Location

    Canada
    Posts

    4,685

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    I'll be trying something a little more mid-rangey:

    4 Young Peezy
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Clique
    2 TNN
    14

    4 Force of Will
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Brainstorm
    3 DTT
    1 Murderous Cut
    1 Terminate
    1 Counterspell
    1 Fire/Ice
    1 Fire Covenant
    3 Cabal Therapy
    27

    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    19

    //BOARD//

    1 Keranos, God of Storms
    2 Flusterstorm
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Null Rod
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Slaughter Games
    1 Surgical Extraction
    15

  14. #214
    Poisonous Foogoofiish
    deadlock's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2006
    Location

    Germany
    Posts

    271

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I'll be trying something a little more mid-rangey:

    4 Young Peezy
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Clique
    2 TNN
    14

    4 Force of Will
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Brainstorm
    3 DTT
    1 Murderous Cut
    1 Terminate
    1 Counterspell
    1 Fire/Ice
    1 Fire Covenant
    3 Cabal Therapy
    27

    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    19

    //BOARD//

    1 Keranos, God of Storms
    2 Flusterstorm
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Null Rod
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Slaughter Games
    1 Surgical Extraction
    15
    While I don't agree with all your choices, I like your inclusion of DRS. To me it is the natural evolution of Grixis since the banning of Cruise. A problem of the deck (seemingly neglected by many) is the mana curve in relation to the delve spell (now DTT). Cruise Grixis was powerful, because it could spam out cheap spells and refill for cheap also. DTT costs twice as much, which has to be accommodated accordingly by either reducing the rest of the curve, which forces one into a more tempo oriented build with Delver or additional mana acceleration: DRS.
    Now the question is, keep it Grixis like your build or go full 4c? The first take has a better manabase, the latter more card choices, especially Abrupt Decay is important to mention. Consider this sample decklist, just to give you an idea:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
    4 Young Pyromancer

    4 Dig Through Time
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    3 Cabal Therapy

    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay

    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Misty Rainforest

    Open questions:
    - Is commiting to green worthwhile (biggest upsides AD and sb cards)?
    - Does DRS work without green lands (removing a creature requires 2 DRS + Land in the yard without a green land)?
    BBB

  15. #215
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Alphen aan den Rijn, NL
    Posts

    28

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by acman54321 View Post
    How do you feel about using Sulfur Elemental as an answer to D&T instead of Massacre or Dread of Night? I haven't had much experience with it yet, but in theory it seems like the elemental has some big plus sides: it's a persistent effect, it can be flashed in, it is nearly uncounterable, and it double as a beater. It seems like a strong answer to D&T as well as Mentor decks (particularly Mentor-Miracles, because the Elemental is a near-uncounterable threat).

    I've also been thinking of including a 1-off Spell Snare. It seems like a lot of the cards we worry about are 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyro, Chalice on 1, Counterbalance. Most decks have some 2cmc spell worth countering, so it will rarely be totally dead (although it does seem very poor against Omni-Tell).
    I considered Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night as possible sideboard cards against D&T. I think the fact that they are permanents counts against them. They'll have answers for them. It is very unlikely for them to have an answer for instant speed board wipe. Also I like the free cost of Massacre. Normally D&T will be rather efficient at keeping your mana at a low level with their Ports and Wastelands, which means Sulfur Elemental is harder to cast. Dread of Night would be my second choice. However, as I mentioned the instant speed of Massacre is crucial to me. Furthermore the -2/-2 pretty much kills everything except Serra Avenger and Restoration Angel.

    The singleton Spell Snare is interesting. If you try it out I'm very interested to hear how it works for you. If you like it I'll give it a go as well.

    @Deadlock: your list seems fine. A good starting point to tweak to personal preference and try at a local tournament. You'll be weaker against Tempo decks I imagine, because of the Stifle/Waste combo. But the inclusion of DRS might help with that.
    I'm not a fan of Tasigur in these decks.
    To answer your questions: I think adding green depends on the meta. I don't know the deck well enough to know whether now is the right time. I don't think you should play DRS without green lands. Also, you won't be able to cast your AD's without a DRS in play, which sounds terrible.

    Are you going to test it?

  16. #216
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Alphen aan den Rijn, NL
    Posts

    28

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Well, as I said I played in Amsterdam yesterday. It was a tragedy. I went 1-4.

    R1: Grixis Delver 0-2
    R2: Miracles 2-1
    R3: BUG Delver 0-2
    R4: Shardless 1-2
    R5: UR Delver 1-2

    The deck was really performing terribly. DTT's that found nothing, Ponder into 3 land, shuffle, still a land (stuff like that). I probable made some mistakes as well in the later rounds.
    I tried the Massacre and it got sided in against Miracles with some success, though I don't think I really needed it. There were two D&T decks as well, but I didn't get paired against them.

    It will be a few weeks before I can play again.

  17. #217

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Hello everyone. So I'm totally in love with this deck and play it on Xmage. Unfortunate in paper I'm missing the high dollar Legacy staples. What can I play as a replacement to them? Spell Pierce or actual Counterspell in for Forces? Shocks will have to be in for Duals. I realize this will be waaaay less than ideal but I'll have to deal with it as I attain the rest of the staples. Any ideas for helping me make some money saving changes would be greatly appreciated!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  18. #218

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch253 View Post
    Hello everyone. So I'm totally in love with this deck and play it on Xmage. Unfortunate in paper I'm missing the high dollar Legacy staples. What can I play as a replacement to them? Spell Pierce or actual Counterspell in for Forces? Shocks will have to be in for Duals. I realize this will be waaaay less than ideal but I'll have to deal with it as I attain the rest of the staples. Any ideas for helping me make some money saving changes would be greatly appreciated!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    There really isn't any good substitute for FoW. Force is a Legacy staple for a reason. Not having Forces makes the deck play out much differently than when you do. It's not just to stop the T1 combo, it's to stop things like a Chalice on 1, allow you to tap out for a sorcery and still have counterspell backup ,etc. There are probably (I would hope) multiple articles discussing the importance of Force in legacy as a balancing factor, even if yes, there are successful decks without it.

    As for shocks over duals, again I'd say that they're in there for important reasons. This deck already does not have a fast clock, and having to take more damage decreases our ability to stabilize against those which do have speedy clocks - such as burn, rug delver, etc.

    However, I don't need to be so pessimistic. Looking at forces, we have two options here - disrupting shoal, or spell pierce. Counterspell is alright, but if you're cutting the T1 counter, you better have something to replace it with for T1. Spell Pierce is likely better, but if the meta is defined by decks which have 1 mana spells that you need to force, then Shoal is the closest thing to FoW. Tying this in to shocks over duals, you end up wanting much more disruption in general. As you see here, there are two builds of this deck going around - one with heavier creatures (essentially being delverless delver), or the one that is much closer to full control, running therapys, and a heavy cantrip suite. Since we would be losing FoW, you want heavier disruption and instant speed control, so I would aim towards the version running Ascensions and Therapies, which play out as heavy disruption closing out with Pyromancers. I would recommend trying to aim for something like this: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10142&d=258384&f=LE . I personally prefer Thought Scours over Preordains, in both my build as well as a budget build, due to instant speed, allowing you to keep more up.

    Which brings me to the comment I came in here for, Which is referring to the linked above decklist. I really like Ascensions, and I love the cantrip + therapy suite. However, it comes down to two further smaller choices - how do we close out the game faster? Jace isn't anything I've ever been excited about, as I usually only ever have time to resolve it when I've basically locked up the game by resolving 2 Digs. How can we turn this into a more reliant kill? Is TNN over Jace good here, because of inevitability? Or no, because it also gets hit by all the -1/-1 splash damage on things like pyromancers? I'm always afraid of running out of win conditions in my list. Secondly, how can we improve the RUG delver matchup? Even with 2 Perish (and 2 Blood Moon in some testing lists), I can never seem to either get up to 3 mana, or just not die to a T1 Mongoose. I've started thinking more about things like Blind Naming Goose/Goyf on T1 with Therapy, multiple Innocent Bloods, etc.

  19. #219

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocley View Post
    Which brings me to the comment I came in here for, Which is referring to the linked above decklist. I really like Ascensions, and I love the cantrip + therapy suite. However, it comes down to two further smaller choices

    - how do we close out the game faster? Jace isn't anything I've ever been excited about, as I usually only ever have time to resolve it when I've basically locked up the game by resolving 2 Digs. How can we turn this into a more reliant kill? Is TNN over Jace good here, because of inevitability? Or no, because it also gets hit by all the -1/-1 splash damage on things like pyromancers? I'm always afraid of running out of win conditions in my list.

    Secondly, how can we improve the RUG delver matchup? Even with 2 Perish (and 2 Blood Moon in some testing lists), I can never seem to either get up to 3 mana, or just not die to a T1 Mongoose. I've started thinking more about things like Blind Naming Goose/Goyf on T1 with Therapy, multiple Innocent Bloods, etc.
    Hello Nocley,

    .Concerning Jace vs Tnn, it just happens that Jace solves more problems than tnn does (Consider Wurmcoil, Goyf, Knight, Goose (Tnn>J), ...) and also offers a reliable way to kill your opponent when he's protected by ascension or yp.
    Young Pyromancer and Tnn, in the end, have the same function : both are somewhat evasive threats that can't be dealt with single targeted spells. Jace brings a new axis, gives more extension to our Digs, more extension to the deck. But it certainly needs ascension to be fully effective.
    Unless you're playing the deck on Modo, you shouldn't have problems with closing out games.

    . The list you've mentionned should be pretty ok postsb with the rug MU. It's maybe your sideboard plan which is not optimal. Blood moon is quite bad in the MU. So is Therapy. I would suggest with the above list :
    -4 Therapy -2 Cspell -1 Jace -2 Ascension
    +1 Perish +2 fluster +2 Grim +1 Reb +1 Command +1 Hydroblast +1 Mountain
    OTP you could keep 1 or 2 therapy but I recommend to test this first.

    Hope it helps
    Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.

  20. #220
    Member

    Join Date

    Apr 2015
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Hey guys, I've been a long time lurker and finally decided to get involved with the source community. I typically play storm, but have temporarily put the deck down due to an over-saturation of miracles and mud in our local meta. Today at a GPT for Seattle, I decided to play grixis control. The event had 15 people and I went undefeated until the finals where I ultimately was felled by aggro loam.

    The list:
    Jizz's 75
    -1 hydroblast (sb)
    -1thoughtseize (sb)
    +1 kolaghan's command (sb)
    +1 Tsabo's web

    Round 1: The Gate
    Win 2-0

    Round 2: Miracles
    Win 2-0

    Round 3: Omnitell
    Win 2-0

    Round 4: Grixis Delver
    Win 2-0

    Round 5: Elves
    ID to put myself as the #1 seed in the top 4

    Semifinals: Elves (guy I ID'd with)
    Win: 2-1

    Finals: Aggro Loam
    Loss 1-2

    Overall the list felt incredibly tight. Obviously there are weaknesses to big dumb green dudes, but what can you do? I will post a tournament report later this week if anyone is interested.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)