Another thought but have people ever tried ashiok in the sideboard as 1 or 2 of alternate win con? Can't be bolted, can be pitched to force of will. Can steal creatures. Only dies to abrupt decay.
I wanted to try this when I was on this list, but I never did. However, this seems extra sweet against Miracles. 3cc is tough for them to CB, plus they have very few ways of actually interacting with it. Free Mentor/Clique/SCM/TNN seems really good. Also seems fair against RUG Delver since they don't have AD and they'll have difficulty interacting with their own Mongoose/Goyf, although counting on 3 mana against them might be asking a bit much.Originally Posted by Themucher
One downside is if they have Needles, they're bringing them in to stop DRS and they'll be happy to use it to shut down Ashiok. Although, if that's their only Needle, now your DRSs are active. Also seems bad against AD decks, but if you're sandbagging it and getting them to spend all their ADs killing DRSs, YPs, and Ascensions, maybe you're overloading their removal.
It has an interesting interaction with Therapy, in that if they Brainstorm in response to Therapy, you can plus Ashiok to take the cards they hide on top. Worth testing, I would say.
(Walking into Magical Christmasland, how epic would it be getting Griselbrand or Emrakul? Conceivable to get to those loyalty totals against decks playing those cards, which probably have no hope of interacting with an Ashiok. lol)
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
I hadn't checked this thread in a while, I hadn't seen that Ascendancy lists yet. Fascinating to say the least.
A question for those running it, does the threat density ever cause an issue? I am asking mainly about those that run four Pyromancer/one Jace as win conditions.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
It's less of an issue honestly. Don't forget that Ascension is 100% a threat too. Not only does killing with Bolt become much more viable, but you're also able to dig to your other win conditions much more effectively. SCM and Strix were never threats in the first place, so as far as what other builds would run, you're sacrificing TNN and maybe Tasigur? I was never enamored with either of those in the first place.
I can definitely see how TNN is not very good, since they will be maxing out on -1/-1 effects due to Pyromancer. Tasigur on the other hand seems pretty good more so at blocking and not dying to the same sweepers. Plus his ability does synergize well with Dig and Ascendancy.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
FWIW, the card name is Pyromancer Ascension, not Pyromancer Ascendancy. Obv. small thing, but it was going to keep bugging me if I didn't point it out.
I definitely agree with your first two points (being a great blocker and generally immune to non-terminus sweepers). There was a time where I ran a 1/1 split with Tasigur in main and SB. That said, I think that the synergy of its ability with DTT and PA is a trap because its casting cost competes directly with both cards as a different option that demands cards in your graveyard to use as a resource. Even outside of gravehate, you can only support so many graveyard dependent cards before each starts to impede on your ability to cast the other. Since I already shaved my list to 3 DTT (following Jizz's list) to reduce the frequency with which this happens, Tasigur isn't even and option for my build. I consider DTT to be a much more powerful card for the deck's gameplan, and I would always consider a 4th DTT before a 1st Tasigur.
Building from that discussion:
For those of you who've also transitioned to running a PA list modeled in some fashion after Jizz's, how've you felt about 3 DTT in the list? I've been having lots of success with it and shaving a copy feels like a reasonable deckbuilding choice for maximizing the overall utility of my high impact grave-based cards (DTT and PA). That said, I haven't tested with a full 4 DTT in a PA list so I'm not 100% convinced that the greater ease activating PA is worth losing the raw power that a copy of DTT represents.
Damn...I knew that too, just not paying attention.FWIW, the card name is Pyromancer Ascension, not Pyromancer Ascendancy. Obv. small thing, but it was going to keep bugging me if I didn't point it out.
I definitely agree with your first two points (being a great blocker and generally immune to non-terminus sweepers). There was a time where I ran a 1/1 split with Tasigur in main and SB. That said, I think that the synergy of its ability with DTT and PA is a trap because its casting cost competes directly with both cards as a different option that demands cards in your graveyard to use as a resource. Even outside of gravehate, you can only support so many graveyard dependent cards before each starts to impede on your ability to cast the other. Since I already shaved my list to 3 DTT (following Jizz's list) to reduce the frequency with which this happens, Tasigur isn't even and option for my build. I consider DTT to be a much more powerful card for the deck's gameplan, and I would always consider a 4th DTT before a 1st Tasigur.
Yeah, I can see how there would be a real tension between so many Delve spells, plus Ascension. I hadn't thought it through to it's logical conclusion though, thanks. Might play this in a couple weeks, depending how many FNMs I can make it to.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I've done the same thing and think it's right. The Ascension builds are much more reliant on being able to play a bunch of cheap spells than the non-Ascension builds, and having Dig rotting in your opener is the worst. I've also gone to two maindeck discard spells to make turning Ascension on easier by giving you more proactive ways of interacting with your opponent. I'm not sure as to whether Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek is better, and I'm also not sure if I want a 4/2 Therapy/other discard spell split or a 3/3 split for Ascension, but the idea has been solid. I do think you want a singleton Snapcaster Mage or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to flash things back - Ascension is such a huge threat that we're already somewhat incentivized to take second copies of spells we've already cast to get counters faster and transition in a position of inevitability that the synergy between the flashback guys and Ascension makes them excellent cards to run even though they don't trigger Ascension by themselves.
All this being said - even with 1-2 guys (or even with a more conventional creature package of 4 Pyromancer, 2 Strix, 1 Snap) on top of 2-3 Ascension and 4 Young Pyromancer, you can be run out of threats by some of the BGx decks. I dropped a match to bUrg Delver last week because he boarded up to 4 Decay and killed, discarded, or countered all of my threats in a game I would've won had Decay been counterable. That's an extreme example and Decay is a particularly significant problem, but there's a serious concern that the more reliant on Ascension a build becomes, the more it wants something like Jace.
About Snapcaster : I think that the main argument against snapcaster is its manacost. Given the number of cantrips of the deck, we can't keep 4 lands untapped in order to snap cspell in Ascension lists or even 3 for snap bolt, most of the time. In theory, we shouldn't have more than 4 lands on the table :). But I agree with what was said before.
About the 4th Dig : Playing only 3 Digs has also to do with the weakness of Ascension to Tempo decks. So is the 4th Dig. In order to keep decent Sb plans, the 4th dig was removed.
About Daze : I'm personally quite interested in the Mentor Miracle list. It runs 3 Daze. I thought about the card in Grixis. I tested : -1 Jace -1 Pyroblast -1 Snare +3 Daze. It allows very nice setups with Cabal + Yp and it won me games. But not having Jace and having to Daze on the draw (rather than "snaring") lost me some others. Yp is not as resilient as Mentor ; and Jace brings a lot on that matter. Since Fire Ice costs 2, I advocate a one of daze in the main deck instead of the second Pyroblast.
Is the Aggro Loam MU manageable in your experience ? Mb it's time to go back to the old blood moon (but it's not that good vs them - they can still cast spells we can't deal with thanks to moxen - knight, library, choke, chalice...etc). On a side note, I would still play 1 MD Island if I had Blood Moon sb -the second island is only acceptable as the 18th land in my opinion (for which we don't have room). What do you think about the ascension plan in the MU ? (protected by cabal on decay)
Perish is also weak in the MU n because spending 3 mana (ie our turn) and not advancing our game plan is bad. I can't find a card that would be gamebreaking in the MU.. Any Idea ?
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
The mana difficulties were why I started using littlest, babiest, Jace over Snapcaster. I'm also on 19 land and not at all adverse to hitting a 5th land drop. It makes playing around stuff like Daze easier, is better when you're trying to turn Ascension on, etc. There are also up to three Lands players at my local so I made room for two Islands and a Swamp so I can board two Blood Moons. It might be overkill but the matchup is atrocious otherwise.
This is a factor too.About the 4th Dig : Playing only 3 Digs has also to do with the weakness of Ascension to Tempo decks. So is the 4th Dig. In order to keep decent Sb plans, the 4th dig was removed.
I've considered Daze, but it doesn't really mesh with my whole "being proactive" angle. The Mentor decks basically require Daze because Mentor costs 3, but I think we have a little more wiggle room on costs. I was definitely wrong in not wanting any Strixes, as they dramatically help in all of the tempo matchups.About Daze : I'm personally quite interested in the Mentor Miracle list. It runs 3 Daze. I thought about the card in Grixis. I tested : -1 Jace -1 Pyroblast -1 Snare +3 Daze. It allows very nice setups with Cabal + Yp and it won me games. But not having Jace and having to Daze on the draw (rather than "snaring") lost me some others. Yp is not as resilient as Mentor ; and Jace brings a lot on that matter. Since Fire Ice costs 2, I advocate a one of daze in the main deck instead of the second Pyroblast.
It's been pretty bad for me, but I've only played it twice. Punishing Fire, Knight, and Chalice are problematic, Blood Moon is ok but doesn't run away with the game, we can't interact easily with Loam once that comes online, and they have tons of threats that tax our removal. If I were going to play against Aggro Loam frequently I'd have 3 Innocent Bloods, at least one Jace, basics, and some and Strixes in the 75.Is the Aggro Loam MU manageable in your experience ? Mb it's time to go back to the old blood moon (but it's not that good vs them - they can still cast spells we can't deal with thanks to moxen - knight, library, choke, chalice...etc). On a side note, I would still play 1 MD Island if I had Blood Moon sb -the second island is only acceptable as the 18th land in my opinion (for which we don't have room). What do you think about the ascension plan in the MU ? (protected by cabal on decay)
Perish is also weak in the MU n because spending 3 mana (ie our turn) and not advancing our game plan is bad. I can't find a card that would be gamebreaking in the MU.. Any Idea ?
My current list is:
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Pyromancer Ascension
2 Baleful Strix
0/1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
0/1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time
4/3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3/2 Thoughtseize
2/1 Counterspell
0/1 Daze
0/1 Spell Pierce
0/1 Spell Snare
0/1 Kolaghan's Command
0/1 Fire/Ice
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroblast
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Innocent Blood
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
Slots that are up in the air are marked with slashes.
I have to be honest, I really don't like Pyromancer Ascension. I think the success of builds with it is due to the fact that any two-of in a 12-cantrip deck doesn't really hurt you and this deck is just full of sick cards otherwise... but it seems bad against BGx decks (DRS and Decay), does nothing as a topdeck, incentivizes awkward sequencing, monkeys with Delve...
Considering BGx decks are our worst nightmare I'd rather pack something that is good against them, like Zombie Fish. And against Omnitell I want Snapcaster Mage all the way, a clock we can deploy on their turn while countering their stuff or sculpting our hand seems so much more valuable than tapping out for a do-nothing enchantment. Though I can see how it's good vs. Miracles, and that could also explain its success in the Miracles-heavy Europe meta.
Continuing about how bad BGx matchups are ... I got stomped by Shardless the other day... what about Misdirection/Divert? They hit Decay and Ancestral Visions, or even Pulse if you want it. Also, Spell Snare is good to have in those matchups, if you see them a lot running 2-3 in the 75 might not be the worst. Hymn, Goyf, Golgari Charm postboard are the major targets. Also Snare-Extraction is a nice out to Loam. I also think Perish has to be a consideration, even if we run Deathrite... we need CA and hopefully this can be a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. They can nuke us with Toxic Deluge, we need something to fight back.
Our meta is inbred with mainly BGx (Shardless, Delver, Jund) and Ux Decks (Mentor Miracles, UR Delver, Stoneblade) (plus some combination of Nic Fit, DnT, Burn, Reanimator, Omnitell, Dark Depths...).
Which is what led me to my current build:
Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
1 Terminate
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
1 Darkblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Deathmark
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
2 Pyroblast
The Scepter went back in because it just fucks with every deck not playing Decay. Against BGx I board it out, ofc.
Snare is just necessary in my meta, as it tends to hit a lot. Namely Tarmogoy (which is a bane of this deck), Golgari Charm, Hymn to Tourach, SFM, Counterbalance, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Counterspell, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Price of Progress, Searing Blaze/Blood, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Exhume, Animate Dead, Vampire Hexmage, Rest in Piece, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual etc.
The creature combination is still something I test an tweak from tournament to tournament, but I will probably cut the TNN, as I tend to use my basics aggressively and Golgari Charm as well as Toxic Deluge are a thing. Angler proved to be very good as it's essentially a 3-4 turn clock which can deal with most opposing creatures. I would love a second one, but the deck just cannot handle that much Delve consistently.
Jace has been the MVP at last week's FNM, beating Jund and Shardless single-handedly. Brainstorming was the least used ability (beside ult), as I had to bounce Goyfs and DRS the whole time, but who cares if you get several Boomerangs out of one card to win the game.
Deathmark is the weapon of choice in my meta to combat Goyfs, as it also kills Mentors and so on while costing only B.
Ascension doesn't impact Delve any more than running Goyf or DRS in my experience, and it's a fine topdeck if you play like you're setting up for it. This whole deck is basically an exercise in awkward sequencing to generate incremental value anyway, and the payoff is huge. The reason BGx decks - especially Jund and Shardless - are tough matchups isn't just because because of Decay. They're on the same game plan but have way more power in each individual card so we're just casting Dig to catch up rather than to pull ahead and consolidate a position. I've heard people say that Goyf lines up poorly against Young Pyromancer, but that's really only true when Peezy is backed up by a hand with 2-3 spells in it.
I ran Divert at Eternal Weekend and it was pretty good against UR Delver, too. I like the card a lot if you expect to hit BGx decks. As for Perish, I'd honestly rather have additional copies of Innocent Blood.Continuing about how bad BGx matchups are ... I got stomped by Shardless the other day... what about Misdirection/Divert? They hit Decay and Ancestral Visions, or even Pulse if you want it. Also, Spell Snare is good to have in those matchups, if you see them a lot running 2-3 in the 75 might not be the worst. Hymn, Goyf, Golgari Charm postboard are the major targets. Also Snare-Extraction is a nice out to Loam. I also think Perish has to be a consideration, even if we run Deathrite... we need CA and hopefully this can be a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. They can nuke us with Toxic Deluge, we need something to fight back.
I've been playing Jizz's list, except for 1 spell and Khans fetches because Tarns are fucking expensive.
-1 Spell Snare
+1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
-3 Scalding Tarn
+3 Bloodstained Mire
Still playing with sideboard a little. Not exactly sure what good sideboard plans are for each matchup. Is it best to keep in some Forces against Miracles?
Tested two matches against Miracles tonight, and now I question whether playing Magic is even worth it anymore.
First Match - 0-2 loss
Game 1 - big early counter war left us both with no board and no hand. I got Ascension online against his CounterTop lock, and felt like I had it set. I think I misplayed a Brainstorm and didn't keep a Therapy, which he may or may not have let resolve twice. Probably not, but he had Council's Judgment in hand and I feel like that was my only way to protect the Ascension. I slowly got locked out of that game.
Game 2 - I probably should have mulliganed. Saw too many red cards. Maybe Force + Ponder, red and lands? Anyway he basically had the nuts against me. I got a Probe in and he showed Terminus, STP, Wear/Tear, Mentor. I should be able to handle a Mentor but I sided most of by Bolts out and I felt pretty much dead. Played it out and he had an answer for anything I played. I was dumb and saw Wear/Tear with Therapy, and played out a Null Rod with my unactive Ascension on board. He fused and wiped them both. At this point, I raged for not RTFC and quit.
Couldn't find another match at 3am on MTGO so I played the same guy. Out for revenge.
Second match - 2-0 win
Game 1 - I hit hard with an early Ascension, then JVP, flip, double Therapy, Pyromancer. Not necessarily in that order. He scooped.
Game 2 - Goofy game. I sided in Surgical and drew it in my seven, and it won me the game. Anyway this was a slugfest. I countered an early Mentor, and Extracted it so I could see his hand/deck (I didn't have Therapy btw). He had one more in the deck and none in hand, but I noticed his sideboard tech too. Singleton EE & Blood Moon, extra Wear/Tear? Maybe another one or two things I don't remember. No Entreat though. Another back and forth match, although I ran out of gas before him. I was stuck on 3 Volcs with 2 Therapies in hand and nothing to do. I did however Pyroblast both of his Jaces and a Snap rather early. I didn't think about it, but at this point his deck was drawing dead with no way to kill me. He kept digging though to assemble his lock pieces. A little more than halfway through our decks, he assembles CounterTop, and a couple turns later finds Blood Moon. At this point I glance at the library counts. Turns out I'm about 4 cards ahead of him. I just auto-yield priority every turn and let him Top and draw cards. At one point we were both discarding to hand size. I ran out a Pyromancer if I saw it but other than that nothing. He let one resolve and I had an opportunity to cast a Probe and some Bolts, but I auto-yielded and didn't cancel it in time and he STPed it. He eventually scooped with about 7 cards left in his deck.
At this point I wanted to quit Magic for how stupid it can get. But hey, I won, right?
This deck has been moved back to the Established Decks forum because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are actually Tempo decks now (Delver / Deathrite Shaman).
Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I'm trying to decide which version of this deck I should start testing. This is my attempt to summarize the different versions after reading through the later parts of this thread:
- Pyromancer Ascension, 3 Dig, a minimum number of creatures besides Young Pyromancer. Seems better in the mirror and against Miracles where Ascension is great. This deck is rather unpopular lately, according to mtggoldfish. I wonder why?
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Innocent Blood, Kolaghan's Command. A bunch of creature removal cards which aren't very good against unfair decks. Jace is certainly sweet, though.
- TNN, Jitte, sideboard Blood Moon and less black. Weaker against big green creatures, possibly weaker against Miracles.
- Deathrite Shaman builds. I don't really understand these. Has access to Abrupt Decay for problematic permanents, and incidental graveyard hate, but has a weaker mana base.
I'm sure I'm missing plenty of things, so please help me out here.
I've been testing something similar to Rich Shay's list. The MD Jitte is a great inclusion.
I'd be concerned that 8 creatures capable of dealing combat damage is a very small number, but I suspect that in practice the deck's digging power makes up for it. Certainly a harder sell for lists that slim their creature count down to just Young Pyromancer. Looking at his SB, he was certainly better prepared than most for the number of Lands decks floating around the top tables.
What I don't like about Rich Shay's list is mainly that his ways of handling large creatures is blocking with TNN, and then Engineered Explosives and Toxic Deluge out of the sideboard. Deluge in particular doesn't seem so optimal when you frequently get into TNN standoffs. Also the lack of Preordain, but I suppose that is quite common in the lists without Pyromancer's Ascension?
These are reasonable points. I was running the full set of Preordain for a while. Eventually, I cut it. The deck is great at chaining cantrips. And when you have a Young Pyromancer on the table, this is great. Unfortunately, without Pyromancer, this isn't very effective. There are two solutions to this. The first is to play a card like Ascension, which gives you a second card that rewards you for chaining cantrips. The second solution, which I feel is better, is simply to play fewer cantrips. I recently moved from one Preordain to zero, and haven't looked back.
Dealing with large creatures it not easy. True-Name Nemesis appears to be the best solution to large monsters. There are other viable approaches -- Terminate and Strix are sound cards. However, I tend to play the deck as being primarily Red and Blue, with a light Black splash. That is why I favor True Name over the other options to handle Goyf and Goyf-alike creatures.
At any rate, today I split a Black Lotus tournament with this deck. There were about 120 players with 7 strong rounds of competition. The deck performed extremely well. The Grixis Delver matchup still isn't where I want it to be, and that was my one match loss on the day. I made a few small adjustments from my Star City list. I wanted to have a better answer to Mentor in the sideboard, and that's why I ran two Sulfur Elemental. I also wanted the deck to be more robust against Omni Show, which is why I had the maindeck Pyroblast and the sideboarded Thoughtseize. Changing Dack for a second Command was a metagame call, and that worked out very nicely.
Remember, for this deck, there is no singular ideal build. Instead, you should be adjusting this build based on your local expected metagame. Part of what makes it difficult to configure this deck is that you are a reactive deck. Is there a lot of combo in your are? That calls for a different configuration than a metagame full of Miracles. Don't just copy a lost. Take that list and think about how to make the deck work for you.
// Removal
1 Pyroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
// Draw
4 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
// Permission
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy
// Creatures
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
// Mana
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
Sideboard
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
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