So is there any chance this deck remains t1 after the ban? Any input about what route this strategy should take?
I don't see this deck beeing really competative in the new meta without dig. I allready switched to BURG and must say it feels way better.
Have a look at some of my cards:
http://s415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/bigupbigup/
I really wanted to keep playing this Deck. But it is incredible how big of a throwback the lack of DTT is. Switched to Jund, goodbye blue!
Build around Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?Originally Posted by rubblekill
I suppose you could go back to playing the Thief card advantage engine, with Dack. If Jace starts seeing a lot more play, this becomes much more reasonable.
Either way, you basically need to rebuild it from the ground up. This deck revolved around DTT more than anything else in the format.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
But Dack doesn't even deal with Black Vise!
Everyone just drops this deck and actually I did it aas well and played something else, but the Tolarian Community College video braught m back to the deck, with some idas
(for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1692pPUseA)
I don't think, that the list portraied in the video is anywhere near the right choice but I used it as a starting point.
Sadly the next local legacy tournament won't be available until tuesday so the decklist I'mgoing to post is not tested yet,
but anyway I want to discuss the list anyway
//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
//Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Reanimate
//Planeswalker
2 Dack Fayden
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
//Lands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
The main problem I got with the list shown in the video is the lack of hard removal, yes damage based removal is good, but especially with DTT out Murderous cut can be put into the list in multiples.
Another point is Sudden Shock, yes it's a verry good card at what it does, but i like my removal to be as mana efficient as possible, so i rather play 3 Bolts, then the split he opted for.
The rest of the list is pretty close to what he proposes.
So lets see if theres still anyone out there wanting to discuss this deck or if this thread is verry much dead
Hey the list looks sweet! I've been wondering how the deck holds up with out an obvious CA engine like DTT, can't wait for the report.
That liliana looks a little suspect. Does the deck ever really want to spend three mana investing in lili or is she just going to be a slow edict effect? I used to run a singleton innocent blood and it worked great. Like you said the deck is all about being super efficient with its mana. I also only ran 3 cabal therapies main and one in the sb as my discard package so maybe with those duresses and a clutch K. Command you can make the strategy work a little better.
I would definitely not want to start cutting lightning bolts though. Bolt snap bolt closed out so many games for me and it is just such a versatile card.
Glad to see someone keeping things alive haha.
Okay so today was our legacy-league-tournament we got 2 times per month,
sadly we only have been 8 players so there were only 3 round.
I changed some things about the list I got in my previous post.
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1st Round Vs Mud
I won the dieroll
In the first Game I countered his Chalice early. He wasted 3 of my lands but I drew alot of them. Later I resolved Dack Fayden that I had to set up with Dimir Charm. Dack stole his Wurmcoil Engine and with the help of some elementals they ended game 1.
In the second Game he resolved a Chalice of the Void on 1 and a Phyrexian Revoker naming Dack. But i had Kolaghan's Command in my opening hand and was able to handle both cards with the command in Turn4 after i had to counter a Wurmcoil Engine the turn before. Ancient Grudge and some Deathrite Shamans sealed the deal.
2-0
2nd Round Vs Slivers
Long Story Short, I never found any solution to this pesky "little" bastards and got pummled, without any actual chance.
0-2
3rd Round Vs NicFit
In the first game i got a good amount of Tokens in game and drop Edric, he didn't even want to try to fight against him and Young Pyromancer in play.
The second game was pretty grindy but him resolving Thrun, the last Troll and a late Garruk, Primal Hunter, spelled my doom.
The third game he kept a pretty loose hand and didn't draw a 2nd land for like 4 turns, needlessly to say, he didn't win that one.
2-1
So overall I went 2-1 and I start to gt the feling that Grixis-Controll isn't dead at all. Sure it is slower than in the DtT-era but so are other decks.
Saturday in a week there will be a bigger legacy tournament near me and I will play this deck for sure, with some minor changes. I will cut the [card]Dimir Charm[/card] again
and add a second Kolaghan's Command for sure. And the sidboar still needs some fine tuning, but overall I still like the deck.
So while this deck is effectively dead, seeing Painful Truths in action from Chapin's Esper Mentor deck this past weekend got me to thinking. Is a variant with Painful truths instead of DTT something to consider?
I came here to say exactly that. Painful Truths seems to be our new 'draw 3' replacement, but I'm not sure that we can safely run more than 2 since the life loss can really add up quickly in Grixis at times. Any other options I can think of are too expensive. Though on the bright side to running 3, we can 'dial it in' to only 2 if we need to. Maybe hybridizing this strategy with the Grixis Delver decks to make a more midrange-y version?
Precisely what I was thinking. Some number of deathrite shamans would be paramount perhaps?
Sorry but why do you even bother posting anything in here at all, if this is your mindset?
Okay to the topic I wanted to address in the first place.
Tournament-Result incoming.
First of all the list I played
//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis
//Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Reanimate
1 Fire Covenant
//PW
1 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
//Lands
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
I'm still not a big fan of the Fire Covenant, but righ now I don't know what else I should play in the slot. The 2nd Command as to slow and Covenant is just to expensive lifewise, but an instant "Mass-Removal" is much to hard to pass on.
1st Round VS Infect
He won the dieroll and dropped a first Turn Glistener Elf. On my first Turn i playd Gitaxian Probe and saw Force of Will, Blighted Agent, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Inkmoth Nexus. So I cast Cabal Therapy. He was a little wary when I casted it and was thinking some time so I asked "Does it resolve?" I don't know if this tipped himovr the edge but h then cast his Forc of will pitching the Agent, exactly what I waited for, I forced the Force and the therapy resolved. Here I made a mistake and took his Brainstorm instead of the library but it didn't change anything and he lost the first Game.
The second game he opend with a Glistener Elf as well. I played a Deathrite Shaman as blocker. I cannot say anything about this gam to be honest. He drew alot of creaturs but no pump and I flooded the board with the help of Young Pyromancer and some removal Spells. And so I won the 2nd game as well.
2-0
Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress
//Out
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Reanimate
1 Dack Fayden
1 Cabal Therapy
2nd Round VS Grixis Delver
He won the dieroll. First Turn Delver hammered me down to 11 until he found another crature a Deathrite Shaman. Now he made a fatal mistake. I casted my Tasigur to lure out the force of will I knew he had in his hand. And he forced him. At that point he had an airborne Delver and a Deathrite Shaman so he had a 5 Point swing to my 4 point Swing, and he was one 17 life whereas I was only on 11. So actually he shouldn't have countered the Tasigur, but he did.
And so I could play a Bolt to remove his Delver and a big Part of his clock. At some Point I reanimated a Pyromancer I killed before and started to produc Tokens. When he got me down to 5 with his Deathrite Shaman I was able to find my own to at least lock his for another turn. So I went down to 1. He tried to get me, by using his Shaman on my endstep and then on his turn. But I drew a timely Murderous Cut to destroy his plan and win the game.
On the second Game he kept a loose hand without pressure and lost to a resolved Tasigur.
2-0
Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
//Out
4 Force of Will
1 Reanimate
1 Dack Fayden
1 Gitaxian Probe
3rd Round Vs Elves
I didn't win a single dieroll this day.
Overall I lost the match due to some stupid mistakes and some bad luck at the draws but 1 single play was like burnt into my mind. (It was so awesome)
In game 1 with some with some removal and other stuff i managed to reduce his Board to 4 Lands(1 of them a Dryad Arbor), a Nettle Sentinel and an Elvish Visionary. He cast a Natural Order and I sadly had no counter for it, so Hoof came in, so with 3 cratures on board hoof and his friends attacked for 17. I was on 16 life had a tapped Deathrite Shaman a Young Pyromancer and a single token. So no-brainer Pyro and token were on jumpblock-duty, i went down to 1.
The following turn i cast another Pyromancer a Ponder and found my Reanimate. The first reaction was... "okay shuffle for sure". But then it hit me, i took the reanimate and casted it on his Dryad Arbor, this way i had 2 additional blockers(Arbor + token) and a green source for Deathrite Shaman and since Arbor has CMC 0 i don't loose any life. With this play I somehow managed to wiggle my way through game 1 but sadly lost games 2 and 3.
1-2
Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
//Out
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dack Fayden
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
4th Round Vs Miracles
Like I said I didn't won a dieroll the entire day
Game 2 he managed to get the old countertop out at turn 2 and a mentor on 3 so I just put my stuff back together.
Game 3 he kept a hand without alot to do and Duress and Therapy just shredded everything else. Tasigur and a Pyromancer did the rest.
2-1
Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Pithing Needle
//Out
1 Fire Covenant
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
5th Round Vs XXX
I was set to be in the Top8 with a draw and so was my opponent so why even bother I. D.
He was playing Death and Taxes and maybe I should haav played the match just to see what I have to change for the big tournament we got in a week
ID 0-0-3
Top8 Vs RUG-landstill
I played one of my friends in the first round of the Top8 and I knew what he was playing. Stiflenought-standstill-stuff. Actually I like his deck but I think it is an easy matchup for my deck.
I got enough cards to handle Phyrexian Dreadnought and the rest of his deck is a pile of pretty neat but hard to establish card-combinations. The only thing I was realy afraid of, was him having an early Punishing Fire set up.
But he did not, in non of the games and so Pyromancer, Cabal Therapy and Tasigur, did what they are supposed to do.
2-0
Sideboarding:
//In
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
//Out
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fire Covenant
Top4 Vs ANT
It was pretty one sided match. Th first game we both ripped each others hand to shreds but he did draw alot better then me.
The second game I had to keep a loose hand on a mulligan to 6, that was promptly taken apart by probe therapy.
0-2
Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
2 Pyroblast
//Out
1 Dack Fayden
1 Reanimate
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire Covenant
1 Lightning Bolt
Recap
Overall the day was a blast. The deck performed pretty well and I had a lot of fun playing it. There were som mistakes in some matches I made and some minor issues with the content of the deck, but nothing big. Fire Covenant is a card I'm not very fond of, but to be honest I got no idea what else should be in the slot. Maybe the deck should just evolve into a dedicated hand-disruption-counter-deck, cause to be honest this is the way this deck wins most of it's games. Maybe the Duresses should be in the main board. Or there should be Thoughtseize in the MB, i don't know.
The banning of DtT hit the deck pretty hard, to be honest. It is the deck that suffered the hardest from the loss of the card. But I don't see any reason to not at least try to get this deck back on track.
//edit: Card Tags will be added in the following days
Last edited by Lightless; 11-15-2015 at 04:16 PM.
Okay yesterday was the next big tournament (72 players). Sadly the 5 wins and 2 losses i had were not nearly enough to get into the top 8 so I had to settle for 17th place.This time I will put the report into the tournament report section of the forum so this thread doesn't become a big pile of me monologing.
*link to report*
Last edited by Lightless; 11-22-2015 at 12:53 PM.
The deck is effectively no longer a DTB, so perhaps I should've worded it less harshly, apologies. It cannot keep up with the rest of legacy without delve cards, hence why almost everyone is off of it and it hasn't placed well in an event in months. Painful Truths, I believe, is what it needs to come back, but it's still going to be more clunky without the delve spells, and I don't know if there's any way of getting around that.
Do you guys think something like this could work?
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Perish
1 Innocent Blood
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Darkblast
1 Terminate
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Envelop
1 Notion Thief
After seeing Chapin's GP SeaTac deck (can be found here) I really feel like Painful Truths could be made to work in the dig through time slot for this deck. It is indeed worse, but who knows this could be fun to try out.
Need to cut something in sideboard for Pithing Needle though.
Hi,
I just recently acquired this deck, as I really like the combination of Young Peezy, Gitaxian Probe, and Cabal Therapy. I went 5-3-1 with it at this past weekend's SCG New Jersey Legacy Open. I beat Miracles twice, Shardless BUG, Infect, and Enchantress, while losing to MUD, Shardless BUG, and BUG Delver. I tied with RUG Delver when my opponent kept trying to kill Dack Fayden instead of me for 15 minutes in game 2, giving me time to win:) I would love to share ideas and thoughts about this deck here, as I live in a region with a lot of Legacy players, so I can experiment a lot in the near future!
Hi,
It would be interesting to know the exact list you played and what card performed well and if you have ideas how to improve the deck and certain matchups. YBut anyway, welcome to the show ;)
There will be a big legacy tournament in Geneva this weekend and I will be there as well, piloting my list from the previous post.
The sideboard will be very different to the one I used before. I will be playing 3 Submerge and 2 Bloodmoons. Genevas metagame is verry Lands and Jund focused, thats why I will make this changes.
The SB will be:
3 Submerge
2 Bloodmoon
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
If anyone has some better ideas, lets discuss them here
@Ironclad:
I think the spirit of the painful-truths list is on point, though I think the costs we incur by playing 4 are too high. It seems to me that grixis control variants ought to play 2-3 copies and fill out the other slots previously given to dig through time with some combination of gurmag / murderous cut.
My current list, after much deliberation (and only some testing), looks as follows:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Wasteland
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
1 Forked Bolt
1 Innocent Blood
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Dismember
I might offer a more in-depth analysis of card choices later. I will be testing this at a local 1k today.
You must change hyped painful truths for read The bones or The best option in control for me: skeletal scrying.
Excuse me, but why are these two cards are better than truths? Before any discussion, Painful Truths is 3 for 1 at 3 mana. Now we look at this:
Read the bones - 2 for 1, at the same mana cost and also sorcery speed.
Sceletal scrying - to get out of best of it -3 for 1 (in comparison with painful truths), - you are playing black instant harmonize at 4 mana, shrinking your graveyard and loosing life. And difference in1 mana means a lot in legacy.
Painful truths is probably the best draw spell in legacy with reasonable casting cost and fine restriction.
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