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Thread: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves

  1. #41
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by disgustipated View Post
    Just some random thoughts..

    Smash to Smithereens versus Rakdos Charm?

    Fire Covenant versus Sudden Demise and Electrickery?

    Sideboard options versus miracles? Pithing Needle for top/jace. I like Engineered Explosives for the match up as well. Recoil can potentially kill Jace / harder to push a Pyroblast through CB. Having Planeswalkers here is really nice, even if they run red blasts (can therapy/counter them - "protect the queen" strategy). Makes me think 1-of Jace might be worth it, or a Keranos, God of Storms perhaps. If the game is going to go long, having a 4cmc+ bomb to close it out quickly is nice.

    Vendilion Clique seems decent for allowing a peek at their hand to set up Therapy.
    Pyroclasm might be more versatile than Massacre in the SB, but more difficult to resolve through soft counters and can be BEB'd. I'm thinking Elves here.
    Also massacre kills TNN, which is kind of big.

  2. #42

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    As my testing goes :

    . Engineered Explosives is not very good in the deck : it s too mana intensive for CB (you need 5 or 3 + 2 turns) + you don't want to set it on 2 (strix pyromancer snap). EE can't deal with Chalice + Trini. For now I just rely on 4 Force 4 Pyroblast Cabal Needle Counterspell Bounce for CB. Echoing truth will be my answer to a resolved Entreat (or even demise for G1).
    The best card vs Miracle is Pyroblast, so if you absolutely want to win this MU, play 3 in your sb (5 total postboard^^). As long as CB doesn't hit the table, we are the control in the mu.

    . Sudden demise >> Electrickery and Fire covenant. The way you should play the deck makes demise superior to Electrickery in most of the cases. The life loss matters for Fire covenant (you end up casting 2-3 probes and you may fetch 3-4 times in a normal game), which is not very efficient at clearing a yp/elves board.

    . I'm testing Shattering spree that can unlock a chalice + trinisphere board (for 3) -Or Meltdown but it desroys Jitte. But what i'm really looking for is an answer to choke (Echoing truth is the one for now). I may give swan song a try, even if I know it doesn't fit in the deck. Vendilion Clique can be an option here.

    . I need further testing for Massacre (do we really need to deal with tnn ? - still 4 pyroblast to answer it on the stack). Pyroclasm is too narrow if you play demise MD. I suggest Perish, that will be more and more useful in my opinion.

    . I didn't test Winter Orb, it's maybe better than Tsabo s web vs lands and Cloudpost, but I don't see another MU where it s useful. I should give it a try though, since Tsabo s web main use is D1T. Thanks for the idea !

    For those interested, I have sidetables for various MUs. Just PM me if you want to discuss them.

    EDIT : For the Lands/Dark depth Combo/Cloudpost MUs, Maybe 2 blood moon (with 1 basic island MD) SB is playable. Cabal into blood moon looks game-wining.
    Last edited by JosephK; 12-17-2014 at 04:09 AM.
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  3. #43
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Kevin Jones took this deck to SCG PC, unfortunately didn't have an opportunity to play it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...rol_with_.html

  4. #44

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    The SB Mountain is quite clever. I didn't test it but a 2nd basic island may be necessary to really play around wasteland (ie make them dead cards).

    I'm not sure if Tsabo s web is of great help vs 43 lands :).
    Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.

  5. #45
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by grimskies View Post
    Kevin Jones took this deck to SCG PC, unfortunately didn't have an opportunity to play it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...rol_with_.html
    Awkward Blazer Man said that Dack is an answer to Chalice of the Void on 1 XD

  6. #46
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Went 3wins, 0 losses, 2 draws(1 ID) at a tournament in the swiss portion and then lost in semifinals in the Top8 with this deck.
    Still tinkering with the sideboard. I actualy abandoned the whole Lands, Jund-Depths etc. Matchup,
    even with some slots in the board they can win faster than we assemble the bloodmoon-lock
    or are still able to shut us down by playing or crop rotating for a tabernacle with some mana denial and/or Abrupt Decay.
    I just don't wana deidcate to many valuable Sideboardslots to this matchup.

    That said, here is my current Board

    //Sideboard
    2 Smash to Smithereens
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Electrickery
    1 Massacre
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Null Rod
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Innocent Blood


    I made a little change to the Manabase as well. I play a Mountain main instead of the 4th Volcanic Island and adjusted the fetches in that regard.
    4 Scalding Tarn, 3 Polluted Delta, 2 Bloodstained Mire.

  7. #47

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    The sideboard of this deck is quite tricky indeed, since the grixis colours are not always adapted to a controll-ish startegy. Here is my tinkering about it :

    We are susceptible to :

    Strategies that don't care about Card advantage, namely Burn or dredge. (1)
    Strategies that are aggressive before we can set up our soft lock (= pure CA) : mana denial strategies involving stifle and wasteland, chalices decks, early cb top lock, etc... (2)
    Strategies involving threats that ignore our disrupting tools (making our CA engine useless) : lands, uncounterability. (3)
    At last, we have to care about decks which prevent us from killing (Punishing fire). (4)

    (1) Burn and Dredge are two different archetypes :
    Burn ; cards at our disposal :
    . Zuran orb, Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull (the better beeing Zuran Orb)
    . Hydroblast, Flusterstorm
    Dredge ; cards at our disposal :
    . Surgical/extirpate, Nihil spellbomb, Graffdigger's cage (good in this match up but very anti synergistic with the rest of the deck in other match ups)
    . Envelop, Flusterstorm, Hydroblast/Pyroblast

    (2)Stifle and Wasteland :
    . Flusterstorm
    . Pyroblast
    (Needle beeing bad)
    [cabal is good in these MUs. 1 additional Mountain MD or SB is not enough to play around wasteland in my testing]
    Chalice.decks :
    . Meltdown (care if you play needle jitte etc...)
    . Shattering spree
    . Smash to smithereens
    . Rakdos Charm
    . Hurkyl's recall
    (Bounces)
    Cb top :
    . Wipe away
    . Pyroblast
    . Pithing needle
    . Null Rod
    There is also a need for sweepers to punish players who empty their hand before the big Turn :
    . Massacre
    . Perish
    . Sudden Demise
    . Toxic Deluge
    [I find electrickery too narrow : you won't generally race an opponent that is susceptible to Electrickery ; the point in these 4 sweepers is that they all have late game potential while Electrickery is more of an aggro card. Most of them are selective (ie don't kill your own pyro) because you want to end the game before you mill yourself]
    A resolved Choke can also happen before our big turn, and the only out we have to this is to bounce it :
    . Recoil
    . Echoing Truth
    . Wipe away


    (3) First, let's list the lands we care about :
    A. Cavern of souls, Boseiju
    B. Cloudpost Vesuva Eye of Ugin, The Tabernacle at Pendrel Valley
    C. Thespian Stage, Dark depth
    D. Karakas Rishadan Port
    (Manlands are easily dealt with, that's why they don't belong to this list, even if Nexus can be a pain sometimes)
    Our colours give us :
    . Blood moon (B, C)
    . Ruination (B)
    . Wasteland (A, B, C, d)
    . Tsabo's Web (D)
    . Sowing salt (a, b, c)
    (And also Pithing needle (b, c) that I don't consider as a land slot)
    I'm a proponent of giving two slots to fight lands strategy. To have a good "covering" (??) of the matter, one could play 1 Blood moon and 1 Tsabo's Web. It s a reasonable path that, however, makes us sometimes dependent on 1 card in the concerning match ups. Blood moon being also quite expected when it's useful, we have to protect it and sometimes keep Cabal Therapy for this purpose alone, which can lead to odd sideboard plans. Blood Moon has also the drawback to be very targeted since the deck has only one basic (a resolved blood moon has to win the game on the spot). Tsabo's web has this same liability as to be efficient in very few match ups. Incidentally, this plan makes us vulnerable to Boseiju (unless you want to side in Blood moon with your lone Island..). One could also have 2 Wasteland to fight lands. They are less expected than Blood Moon and can be quite impactful. They are also more versatile, in a way, but require to timewalk yourself as well. You'll have to do some testing to have your own opinion on the matter. Maybe you'll end up giving up these match ups :).

    Uncounterability mainly concerns vial and Thrun, the last troll. We have needle against the former and Perish can answer the latter -or yp.

    (4) Punishing fire will generally be dealt with Surgical extraction or Extirpate.


    I feel like a sideboard should observe these 4 Points. Numbers are a matter of testing and metagame related.
    I don't like possible anti-synergistic relations between cards of our 75. Null rod/Spellbomb (Storm) and Dack stealing Equipments ; Graffdigger/Snap and Cabal (Reanimator, Elves among others) ; etc..

    Let me know your thoughts.
    Last edited by JosephK; 01-28-2015 at 06:29 AM.
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  8. #48
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Great analysis, JosephK :)

    I'd add Surgical Extraction as a SB slot to the second category, I was playing one Island version of this deck and met a Jund opponent with Loam lock, it wasn't pretty...

    I agree with you that Cage messes up with our own plan and should be replaced with Nihil Spellbomb. I also agree on Electrickery. One damage is often not enough to swipe the opponent's board. I tried to focus on one sided "wrath" effects and played with Bonfire of the Damned, but it's not very good in this deck.

    We definitely need a bounce spell, because a resolved Choke, Moat, etc. is game over, I'm leaning towards Wipe Away.

    As for the third category, I don't have any ideas here, but I always felt that Tsabo's Web is not good enough.

    Other random cards:
    * Rakdos Charm
    * Hurkyl's Recall

    Kevin Jones finished 5th in SCG Columbus: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=78199

  9. #49
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    I took the deck to a small LGS event last night (14 players) and went 3-0-1 with an ID in the final round to split store credit. The meta is mostly made up of pet decks and combo so take my results with a grain of salt (UB Pox, ANT, Doomsday, TES, MUD, Stax, Reanimator, BUG Delver, Sneak & Show, Zombardment, Punishing Jund, Solidarity, ???, me).

    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Baleful Strix
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Pyroblast
    4 Treasure Cruise
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Preordain
    2 Dack Fayden
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Island

    Sideboard:
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Zuran Orb
    1 Sudden Demise
    1 Massacre
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Null Rod

    Round 1 (UB Pox):
    G1: Opponent mulls to 6, and never finds a second mana source.
    G2: Opponent tears my hand apart with cabal therapy (T1 young pyromancer, later flashes back off a nether spirit to grab treasure cruise). I land Dack and loot for several turns, but never find a creature / spell combination that will live through his edict effects or a treasure cruise to utilize my 30 card graveyard.
    G3: Opponent leads with Entomb for Nether Spirit. I aggressively exile his yard with Nihil Spellbomb. I managed to float treasure cruise and threats on top of my library with brainstorm to avoid his discard effects, and managed to have a big turn with young peazy and cantrips that his removal couldn’t come back from

    Round 2 (Stax):
    G1: Keep a hand with 2x brainstorm and 2x probe. Feel good about my keep until he leads with t1 CotV. Opponent follows up with trinisphere, wasteland, and crucible of worlds. I negate wasteland’s impact by holding up uncracked fetches until I get my third mana source, then play dack fayden and steal his crucible of worlds. Between two rishadan port and his trinisphere it takes a while, but I eventually proceed to steamroll him in what would otherwise have been an unwinnable game. Cruising for 1 mana against an opponent’s trinisphere feels so dirty.
    G2: Opponent mulls to 5, and doesn’t get CotV until turn 2. I get down a turn 3 dack and loot as it takes hits from mishra’s factory. Manage to find a TNN before dack dies, and never look back from there.

    Round 3 (MUD):
    G1: I know what I’m facing, so I mull to 6 and keep with 1 land, dack, and multiple cantrips. If he doesn’t hit CotV on one, I’m confident I can land Dack and take control of the game. He does. I find my third land a turn too late, and play can’t play dack profitably because his kuldotha forgemaster has already been in play for a turn.
    G2: T1 cabal therapy for CotV and miss, which I still count as a win. He chains sol land and grim monolith into trinisphere, then next turn plays a great furnace and lightning greaves with 2 metalworkers and plenty of other artifacts in hand. I steal his great furnace with dack, and he never sees another mana source.
    G3: I lead with a grafdigger’s cage to shut off welder and forgemaseter, which never matters because he gets an early lodestone golem with lightning greaves when I only have 1 red mana up to cast bolt. I proceeded to feel sad and do taxed cantriping to eventually play a young pyromancer at 1 life without enough mana to make a token. Opponent is borrowing the deck from a friend, and punts by playing ensnaring bridge (not realizing it effects both players) and 2 cards in hand. I proceed to slam null rod, then TNN and never look back. I may have been able to get there if he didn’t play the bridge, but I don’t remember how much farther down the TNN was when he played the bridge.

    Round 4 (BUG Delver)
    We ID to split credit, then play the match for fun
    G1: I don’t remember much about the early game board states, but I do remember that I cast 3 treasure cruise and pitched the 4th to force of will to counter a ponder when it was the last card in his hand and he had an unflipped delver out. Kill him in one shot with elemental tokens and a true name nemesis.
    G2: lead with probe to see stifle and wasteland. Play out fetchlands, then force him to use both turn 2. (crack fetch 1, no response. Grab volc. Crack fetch 2, wasteland in response, float blue, opponent stifles, I flusterstorm. Grab U sea, then ponder and surgical extraction his wasteland). Opponent stumbles on mana while I continue to draw lands.


    Overall I’m really happy with the deck. Still not sold on a few slots in SB (I considered replacing Zuran Orb with Chill to help against Burn, but I think it hurts us too much). Rakdos Charm could be Shattering Spree, but I’ll take it over Smash to Smithereens any day. Dack was an absolute house, and I always seemed to find him when I needed him. If I found a spot where I could stick him and my opponent couldn’t answer him immediately, I always felt so ahead in the game. Fire // Ice was in the deck because I don’t own a second forked bolt. The versatility is nice, but the extra mana makes a big difference. Maybe if I faced reanimator or sneak and show I would have felt differently, but I’m problably picking up the second forked bolt. I’m a big fan of the 4th cabal therapy, but would probably want 2 pyroblast in a more normal meta. Baleful strix hasn’t impressed me (not that it’s been expressly bad), so I might swap that slot instead since both are answers to delver.

  10. #50

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Hi grimskies,

    I edited my post to add your suggestions :). I have difficulties to classify the Loam Lock ; it can be used on a board state where they are either ahead on or if we are in a stalemate (I mean that noone has the edge on the board) and after turn 3 (to cast loam and waste). At that time, we should be able to deploy cabal + cruise. In a way we can answer it by countering once or twice (dredging takes a drawstep) and race them in the meantime. But I agree that it is a difficult card to answer. Theoretically though, it seems not too good a card vs us because it is online too late and they will never have the edge on the board (I'm talking about Mus without Stifle or Exploration/Manabond ofc, which are already treated).
    Each time I faced this card I had my maindeck Spellbomb in hand so I may be a little biased :).

    The bounce spells : Wipe away is good because it can't be countered but it is harder to cast (vs Choke for instance). Echoing truth makes sure to answer the problematic permanent (2 chokes, 2 chalices on 1, 2 KotR -yeah it happened to me^^ etc..) and can be used vs Enter the Warrens/Entreat the Angels.


    @Lordofmj

    Nice results !

    You have an interesting Ratched Bomb in your board. Did you choose to play it for a specific reason ?
    (Against Choke it will eat decay and has to be on the battlefield before CB :) )

    Baleful strix is an awesome card in the deck. As well as being a disruptive tool vs creatures, Cabal therapy turns it into a free discard spell against other decks. Is is also our only flying creature ; that can sometimes matter (1 more turn vs Marit Large^^).
    Last edited by JosephK; 01-09-2015 at 07:08 AM.
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  11. #51
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephK View Post

    @Lordofmj

    Nice results !

    You have an interesting Ratched Bomb in your board. Did you choose to play it for a specific reason ?
    (Against Choke it will eat decay and has to be on the battlefield before CB :) )

    Baleful strix is an awesome card in the deck. As well as being a disruptive tool vs creatures, Cabal therapy turns it into a free discard spell against other decks. Is is also our only flying creature ; that can sometimes matter (1 more turn vs Marit Large^^).
    re: Ratchet Bomb
    Very specifically, actually. The friend I drive to tournaments with is primarily an enchantress player, and I wanted a way to deal with problematic permanents. Neither it nor EE are particularly strong options (he has O-ring much as decks with Choke might run Abrupt Decay) but I wanted something and I would rather invest mana once than twice so I can continue to advance my own gameplan. It's on par with EE against Dredge, TES, Belcher, and UR Delver for wiping tokens and flipped delvers. It's a full turn slower against Elves, but I haven't seen the deck at that particular shop in months. It's only real use on Wednesday was destroying CotV against Stax. I can't say I love the slot and it's probably not there against a broader metagame. I don't like bounce spells as a way to deal with problematic permanents either though, since they require mana to use and countermagic to prevent their redeploy - which even when we have it often equates for 3-1ing ourselves between the bounce spell and two cards for FoW.

  12. #52

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    The deck put up a ton of results in Philly. Many copies in the top 128. It seems a bit soft against storm with the lack of counter magic though.

  13. #53
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Since MTGTop8 doesn't seem to have the most recent tourney results, I compiled information about the day 2 Grixis Control decks into a single Excel file. A total of five copies in the top 32 and one more in the top 64 of a 566 player event. I'm going to assume that Eli and company had some discussion about card choices considering the commonalities most lists share (1 Dack, 1 DTT, 1 Innocent Blood, etc.) and if so congrats to the group of them for putting so many players into day 2 and the top of this event.


  14. #54
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Hello fellow players,

    I decided to give this deck a try and took it to a local legacy event (17 men). Went 2-2, but am really pleased with the deck nonetheless. Won against ANT 2-0, Miracles 2-0. Lost against BUG Delver 1-2 (on his last additional turn), UR Delver 1-2. Dack Fayden, Snapcaster Mage, TNN were all amazing. If you resolve Dack, he gives so much card quality, just wow. Found out that the deck is susceptible to Stifle (BUG) and Price of Progress (UR). I'm also a little disappointed that all countermagic that we have is a set of Forces. I had no DTTs this time, so there were 2 TNNs in my list. The deck probably wants as much digging power as possible, so DTT is certainly in for next time. Sudden Demise also gets a nod here, being able to wipe really awkward boards.

  15. #55
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    @Arksz: you could add some Flusterstorms to the sideboard, this should help a bit, have a look at OP's list.

    @LordOMJ: interesting comparison, it seems that Dack is fading away...
    With most of the lists playing a single Mountain in the sideboard, I think that Jason Smith's choice of fetchlands seems to be more reasonable.

  16. #56

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    How important is Dack Fayden in the deck? I'm planning to build the deck but replace Dack with JTMS since I don't own any Dacks.

    Cheers

  17. #57
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Dack refills your graveyard for more cruises... to be honest after you played him at least once you dont want to miss him. I allready stole, Jitte, Batterskul, Aether Vial, Expedition Map, 2 Fatestitcher, SoFaI ... and more xD

    Jayce is poorly positioned in the current metagame. The mass of creatures most decks bring to the board, especially the young pyromancer type of decks, can kill him easily. So I don't think you should play him... but anyway try it and post something about your experience with him, after all I didn't try him in this shell yet, cause I'm sold on the Duck... Dack.

  18. #58

    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    One of the best shell to abuse cruise was the Grixis shell. Its strength relied on Cabal therapy which ensured to resolve our key spells. This proactive way of thinking is maybe not suited to the new Dig through Time meta which lies ahead of us.

    Too bad, this deck was skill intensive, rewarded good plays, the reason why we like this game.
    Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.

  19. #59
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephK View Post
    One of the best shell to abuse cruise was the Grixis shell. Its strength relied on Cabal therapy which ensured to resolve our key spells. This proactive way of thinking is maybe not suited to the new Dig through Time meta which lies ahead of us.

    Too bad, this deck was skill intensive, rewarded good plays, the reason why we like this game.
    Agreed. From the moment I started this thread, I've been maining it for that all time and checked back at this topic every day. I was really loving it and it's a shame to say so, but without Cruise, this deck is probably dead. Grixis Control really never was a thing, but Cruise + Dack made it possible. I can hardly imagine us swapping our Cruises for Digs ... sadly.

  20. #60
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    Re: [DECK] Grixis Control / Thieves

    I talk now and then with Eli Kassis on facebook and having done so just now; he feels that swapping to Dig isn't such a big deal and does allow for more card selection (quality) over quantity.
    It's worth a shot. He'll be testing it and I guess so can we.

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