Does some thread for Grixis Pyromancer midrange/control, that top16-ed GP Vegas in the hands of Pierre Dagen and put up some results on MTGO, exist?
I'm talking about this kind of deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/696182#online
Overdosed on confidence
That list took first in last Sunday's challenge.
I'm also surprised at the lack of discussion for this deck. Someone should write a primer. I've been grinding it on mtgo but I only have about 7 matches with it so I'm definitely still learning. You get to play the most broken combo in legacy though (git probe + therapy), it feels extremely powerful.
Unsure if people know it, but here grixis control is played a lot
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24009
Last league of the season in Milan saw three in top8, winner is the new deathrite-less list, while the other two are the build I play too, basically chez-pile less versions.
I like the deck a lot, still debating if angler or Tnn should be the better beater, I guess it comes down to the metà tuoi would expect to meet.
Another point is the number of discard maindeck/side:
Tipically the deck runs 4 between main and side, here they run only three maindeck and split between TS and IoK, personally I've been running the deck with Though seize only, but I recognize the life loss matters, also the numbers: two seize seems not enough at times, but thrree felt too much for me maindeck... Yet sideboard is indeed crowded.
ATM I run:
4 deathrite
4 strict
3 snapcaster
2 gurmag angler
1 vendilion clique
4 FoW
2 counterspell
2 TS
2 Jace, TMS
3 fatal push
2 lightning bolt
2 kolaghan's command
1 toxic deluge
4 ponder
4 bs
20 lands
Side
2 flusterstorm
2 REB
1 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
2 diabolic edict
2 engineered explosives
1 toxic deluge
2 surgical extraction
2 blood moon
Still unsure about how much GY hate is enough and if I really want the vendilion maindeck, storm at times is still painful to deal with when they goes off after a duress AND a cabal theraphy...
Exactly, I started playing it myself and it feels really great. I crushed basically any deck I faced except for New Miracles, and I wrote here because I was in fact looking for help in that match up. Did you face it? My problems were that we have many more dead cards than them. Discard spells are bad when your opponent has always a full grip of 7 thanks to Predict and Snapcaster Mage, they have Terminus to answer Peezy and we have nothing to answer Mentor. They have many more incidental +1 than we do.. I don't know it felt like an uphill battle to me, but Pierre Dagen wrote in his article he felt favored.. I really don't know!
Overdosed on confidence
Exactly my feeling. This deck can do so many powerful things. It creates huge holes and can capitalize on them really fast. It's pretty difficult to pilot but it's a blast to play. The French list is the superior one imho as it is more focused and consistent than the drs or the other midrange builds.
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Ok guys, I'm gonna try this plan going forward against New Miracles. Of course I'm talking about the French version.
- 4 anglers
- 2 bolt
+ 2 pyroblast
+ 3 counterspell (I added one cutting Strixes)
+ 1 painful truths
Bolt is very bad but at least frees our pyroblasts a bit answering Jace. Pyroblast is super important to stop value countering Snapcaster Mage. Angler is super bad, it gets answered by literally anything in their deck.
I also believe the French version is vastly superior to any other version. DRS is super bad without Wasteland, Strix is super clunky and too narrow, useless against combo and Miracles. Fatal Push is committing too much against Delver, will be a dead card vs combo and Miracles. The French list with its proactive game plan has a decent match up against any deck. Stix and Push are really not needed to beat Delver decks when you can clog the board with Angler and Peezy or even turn the corner with them and win a race
Overdosed on confidence
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16224&f=LE
3 grixis control lists in the top 8 of a 70 man event in Japan. All of them eschewed deathrate shaman for a more streamlined version.
Has anyone played this list compared to the current czech pile list running around? As a guy who just got my grixis cards recently, would like to know the difference between grixis control and czech pile, strategy wise and how grixis control is positioned in the current metagame.
Not a lot of spotlight on this deck :(
Here's an excerpt from the Czech Pile primer:
Definitely agree with the ability of Grixis Control to beat down quicker than Czech Pile. Pyromancer and Angler can lay down some fast beats. A better mana base allows you to play Blood Moon in the sideboard which should help with some match ups.
Also, Grixis control has a way way better combo match up.
Overdosed on confidence
Overdosed on confidence
Version with Therapies and probes does have a bit better combo much up indeed but lists not playing these two cards don't. Czech pile doesn't have bad combo matchup as well; if you think it does you don't know what are you talking about. The only exception is Storm which is "only" about even or slightly unfavoured for Czech pile because it has slow clock and Elves which isn't good for Grixis Control either. Furthermore Czech pile plays more than just 2 Thoughtseize, Leovold and 4 Force of Wills to fight combo decks.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
So I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where paper legacy fires 4 times a week minimum, so I've been experimenting with various grixis control lists. The meta is pretty diverse where i am, and very competitive. with that being said, I find myself having issues sideboarding with grixis control in almost every game that isn't combo. I normally play sneak and show, elves, grixis delver, bug delver, UWx control, and red stompy. The grixis control deck is so streamlined and intricate, its hard to take cards out. I'm having issues sideboarding against fair matchups, IE delver, stoneblade, and other control decks.
Does anyone have any success running this deck, and how does the deck shift when it comes to fair matches? Is it correct to go down on therapies? It seems bad when that is the main engine.
The list that I'm currently running is Dagen's list, except no baby jace.
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Baleful Strix
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
After playing this deck for a couple weeks now, I must admit it's much more difficult to pilot properly than it looks on paper. It would be nice to get a thoughtful primer in addition to the tournament report we have from vegas.
I've gone through a few leagues with the deck and can confirm it's way less easy than it seems. What I learnt is that the deck must be played more tempo oriented than most control decks because it seems to me that we haven't a proper source of inevitability. How we win games is disrupting the opponent's hand in the first turns and then place an Angler or going crazy with a Peezy.
That happens because most decks have the inevitability over us: I played Cartesian on Aluren and I figured my best plan was being the beatdown with Anglers and Peezy because I wouldn't have been able to overcome the value his deck generates.
Czech Pile has a good combo mu. I'm done.
Overdosed on confidence
SIN top8ed the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Control "therapy list". Notable changes are a single TNN maindeck, and in the sideboard, where he has 1 more Blood Moon, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Notion Thief instead of 2 Stixes and a Painful Truths. Would be interesting if he would like to leave a feedback, especially on how Echoing Truth and Notion Thief worked for him.
Another one was in the top32, I can't remember the nick nor the position.
Great job guys!
Overdosed on confidence
I've been running this deck at my locals to some success (4-0 last night, many 3-1s). Basically Dagen's, but with -1 Angler, -2 Preordain, +3 Snapcaster, which does help grind better.
6 discard is overkill against fair decks, IMO. Post-board, I usually run 0-4, depending on whether I think I need to "get them" with therapy in order to win. In matchups where you have inevitability (i.e. Delver), I like cutting discard entirely -- you want your deck to be all cantrips, threats, and removal b/c you win by watching your opponent topdeck blanks (daze, stifle, their own therapies, etc.) while you draw 100% gas. For fair matchups where you don't have inevitability (BUG TNN, Stoneforge decks, Maverick), I like keeping in some amount (2-4), depending on how well you feel you can answer their threats with the rest of your deck and how many SB cards you have.
So basically,
1) Can you win the matchup trading 1-for-1?
2) Can you handle their threats with the other cards in your deck?
3) Do you expect the game to go long?
4) Do you have SB cards that help you do this?
Therapy is rarely "bad", but the more you're answering "yes" to those questions, the more discard you can shave.
Been messing around with a Grixis Control list inspired by the Mengucci Vial Smasher deck. I thought that he definitely went way too far in trying to maximize the smasher, and I didn't like his list, but I think smasher definitely has a place in grixis control. Turns your reactive control spells into proactive win cons, and turning the corner and putting this clock on the opponent is so fast it's unreal. It's also a ton of fun, which I know isn't super important to a lot of spikes, but I love having a deck that's both great AND fun, so i'm definitely enjoying this. Here's the list:
Lands: 20
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
Creatures: 12
4 Baleful Strix
4 Vial Smasher the Fierce
4 Gurmag Angler
Planeswalkers: 2
2 JTMS
Noncreature Spells:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Inquisition of Koz
1 Thoughtseize
2 Night's Whisper
2 Kologhan's Command
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Blood Moon
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Extripate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
Some thoughts so far:
The Thirst for Knowledge is interesting. It's not great in the opening hand, and it's not great in a super grind where both you and your opponent have nothing in hand. But in the mid game, if you've managed to get some minor card advantage rolling, casting it really cements your lead. So yes, it's a little win more. But it does have the advantage of triggering smasher on your opponents turn, and it does put 2-3 cards into the graveyard for the gurmag anglers which is great. Definitely a flex slot though, and could be replaced.
Surprisingly, I haven't been loving the JTMS's in the deck. He's obviously good, but he feels like the worst card in the mainboard (well, second worst, Thirst is prob the worst). Might trim down to 1 copy.
I think the deck really wants a badlands in the list, and I sometimes think the deck wants a 21st land, but I don't know what land/spell i'd cut for it. Maybe the Thirst, maybe a JTMS, not sure. Were I to trim a JTMS, then I wouldn't want the second basic Island, and could run a badlands there, and that gives a second free slot. Might try out Kess in that spot, but with the 4 gurmags, not sure if she's gonna be good enough. Hell, could run a Notion Thief :)
Snapcasters mages and DRS - don't miss em. At all. Deck can't support snapcaster mages and 4 gurmag's, and I think casting gurmag anglers is one of the best things you can be doing in legacy right now. And while DRS would be nice, definitely don't think he's a necessity, or fits the gameplan here.
As far as running 4 vial smashers, obviously running 4 of a legendary permanent can be awkward. But even if you can't get rid of one with a brainstorm, it's not going to be completely dead in hand as you can still get in three damage by casting it. Not the best, but the card is good enough that I think you definitely want 4.
Also want to find a spot in the board for a Pyrokinesis as I think i'm running enough red spells to support one, and it's fantastic vs. elves, goblins, dnt, delver in decks that can support it. Would probably take Marsh Casualties slot.
Anyway, would definitely love some criticism/suggestions!
IDK... Vial Smasher is cool, but for 3 mana TNN just seems like the better investment to me.
I'm currently testing out Kess, Dissident Mage in Dagen's list. I really like the 3/4 flying body. She's difficult to remove without Swords to Plowshares or revolted Push, and blocks Delvers all day long.
4 Pyromancer
2 Gurmag
2 TNN
2 Kess
The rest of the list is pretty standard with 4 Probe/Therapy and more value cards.
Mengucci featured the best combo deck in the format. It looks like he decided to push Elemental tokens to the top -> 4 Preordain and therefore only 1 copy of JTMS.
This is very helpful. I've gotten frustrated with the deck and have been jamming dark bant deathblade and grixis delver instead, but today I'm putting the list back together for a important legacy event tonight. Watching that mengucci video from yesterday was inspiring.
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