[Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves

[cheerios]

Are we updating the manabase? It seems like wasteland is coming back. As a counter to this possibility, I'm planning to add another island into the maindeck. Your thoughts guys?

Cheers

[JosephK]

That's very interesting. However I doubt it.

Dig through time is at its best in a reactive control deck. You generally want to dig in response to a spell (and find the answer) or EOT to resolve a big spell afterwards (typically Jace). Dig is very synergistic with counterspells (and with Jace : +2 every turn and you keep dig to answer whatever they play) but not with discard spells.

One of the best shell to abuse Dig may well be Golddigger UWR but I hope that I'm wrong and that Eli Kassis will give us something as wonderful as his Grixis Cruise Control deck.

EDIT : I was tinkering and one could modify the deck around those lines :

18 Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Underground sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Tnn (it is actually better with dig)
1 Strix
2 Snap
4 YP

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Dig Through time

4 Force of will
3 Cabal
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

4 Lightning bolt
1 Forked bolt
1 Innocent blood
1 Sudden demise

SB :
1 Vendilion Clique (good in a Dig shell)
1 Red Elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil spellbomb

1 Umezawa's Jitte (personal favourite but Zuran Orb is still important for Burn)
1 Perish (Remember that bug is back)
1 Massacre

1 Blood moon
1 Tsabo's web
1 Smash to smithereens
1 Echoing truth (Night's betrayal is back in shardless)




But Cabal + Dig feels weird... To be examined. I also have another way of building it (featuring punishing fire).

[Tom]

I love the deck.

I run 2 decays in the main, too, so it is rather 4 colour control than grixis. I like it very much though as it adds much more reach to the deck and if I haven't drawn it or don't need it, I don't fetch for Trops. So far, colourscrewing has not been an issue.

On another note: With the banning of Cruise, why is nobody playing Murderous Cut?

[Qonog]

With the banning of cruise, I think the deck might be able to step back from the Young Pyromancer strategy and go a bit more controlling.

Here is the List me and my playgroup have been working on:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtsieze
2 Spell Snare
2 Dig Through Time
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire//Ice
1 Toxic Deluge

2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland

[Jeff]

I top 8'd the IQ this weekend with a version of this deck playing 4 Digs instead of Cruise. The list wasn't perfect, but considering I'd never played it before and threw it together Friday night, I was pretty happy with it. I wrote a tournament report with an updated decklist and some thoughts on how certain cards played out.

[LordOMJ]

I top 8'd the IQ this weekend with a version of this deck playing 4 Digs instead of Cruise. The list wasn't perfect, but considering I'd never played it before and threw it together Friday night, I was pretty happy with it. I wrote a tournament report with an updated decklist and some thoughts on how certain cards played out.

Congrats on the finish Jeff, and thanks for the report. Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood? If the banning of cruise results in a drop in Young Pyromancer I could see that switch making sense as well (although it Monastery Mentor catches on I do doubt it). I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform. Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

[Jeff]

Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood?

Terminate was definitely much better than innocent blood would've been. I terminated numerous time against RUG where I had a TNN out and they had 2 goyfs, for example. I also used it against several decks where I killed a goyf or siege rhino (!) with a deathrite shaman still on the table that i cleaned up later with a burn spell or just ignored. I don't think Innocent Blood is good in this deck.

I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform.

Dig was amazing. The deck 100% can't exist without it, but it let me play a lot of situational cards and find them when I needed them.

Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

The way the deck played out was pretty consistent across all of the matchups I played. In the early game, I cantripped to fill the yard and make my land drops, while trading 1 for 1 with my opponent. I only cast Therapy when I was guaranteed to hit or absolutely couldn't answer a card if they had it, and otherwise just held on to it for later. Once I made it to 3 or 4 lands, I started pulling away on card advantage with Dig and Snapcaster. Pyromancer worked perfectly in this strategy. Unlike U/R delver with cruise, I almost never played it on turn 2 and then immediately probed to get a token. I used it as a threat I could play once I was done trading with everything that could very quickly win me the game. I was far more likely to play a pyromancer on turn 4 or 5, then cast 3 more spells and pass the turn with an army on the board ready to go. Therapy worked great in this strategy as well, because it helped me pull further away in card advantage late.

I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

Exactly. I almost added an extra one before the tournament but I really just didn't spend enough time testing to know for sure what needed to be there.

[LordOMJ]

Dig was amazing. The deck 100% can't exist without it, but it let me play a lot of situational cards and find them when I needed them.

The way the deck played out was pretty consistent across all of the matchups I played. In the early game, I cantripped to fill the yard and make my land drops, while trading 1 for 1 with my opponent. I only cast Therapy when I was guaranteed to hit or absolutely couldn't answer a card if they had it, and otherwise just held on to it for later. Once I made it to 3 or 4 lands, I started pulling away on card advantage with Dig and Snapcaster. Pyromancer worked perfectly in this strategy. Unlike U/R delver with cruise, I almost never played it on turn 2 and then immediately probed to get a token. I used it as a threat I could play once I was done trading with everything that could very quickly win me the game. I was far more likely to play a pyromancer on turn 4 or 5, then cast 3 more spells and pass the turn with an army on the board ready to go. Therapy worked great in this strategy as well, because it helped me pull further away in card advantage late.

It sounds like the way you played the deck - filling your yard, saving Pyromancer for after the dust clears, etc - is pretty spot on with how most games played out when cruise was legal. Did you find yourself casting DTT during your opponent's turn, or were you often casting it during your turn so you could dig for additional options you could deploy that turn (sorceries like therapy, forked bolt, ponder, and creatures). In either case, do you think you would have time to cast DTT and other spells in the same turn? Or did mana availability limit your options to a one-or-the-other scenario?

[btm10]

Congrats on the finish Jeff, and thanks for the report. Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood? If the banning of cruise results in a drop in Young Pyromancer I could see that switch making sense as well (although it Monastery Mentor catches on I do doubt it). I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform. Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

I've found basically the same things as well, particularly with regard to Dack being not-so-great, and that was even with Cruise. He's great if you're expecting a lot of Blade matchups or other things with artifacts that you can steal (I've stolen Caldelabra of Twanos from 12Post and Sword of the Meek from a Thopter/Sword deck, both leading to game wins), but other than that he's just good in control mirrors so you can Delve more and faster and he makes your Brainstorms better. I'm not sold on cutting him from the 75, but I won't be running more than a single maindeck copy, and may end up moving him to the board.

As for Terminate, I've done some testing with Dreadbore and thought it was good, but Sorcery speed is a bit of a liability. It may even get better now with Planeswalkers like Liliana and Espeth showing up more, but at Sorcery speed Innocent Blood was just better because there weren't a ton of Planeswalkers in the Cruise era. Going forward I'll test both it and Terminate, as the Instant speed might be enough to make up for 2 CMC like you said. Also, Recoil is surprisingly good.

[grimskies]

Congratulations Jeff :)

Do you think the deck is able to run Murderous Cut in place of Terminate?

[Esper3k]

Well done, Jeff!

A few questions:

- I notice you were wanting a bounce spell. What were you mostly wanting to bounce? If low CMC, would Repeal be a possible option?

- Have you considered maybe JTMS in the Dack Fayden slot now that you're playing more blocker creatures?

- With you trimming Dack, is there any reason to play a pure Pyroblast/Hydroblast mix and not add in some REB/BEB instead?

- Smash to Smithereens - I'm always curious, but why people are running this instead of Rakdos Charm? Are you all finding the 1R or 3 damage that relevant?

[Jeff]

It sounds like the way you played the deck - filling your yard, saving Pyromancer for after the dust clears, etc - is pretty spot on with how most games played out when cruise was legal. Did you find yourself casting DTT during your opponent's turn, or were you often casting it during your turn so you could dig for additional options you could deploy that turn (sorceries like therapy, forked bolt, ponder, and creatures). In either case, do you think you would have time to cast DTT and other spells in the same turn? Or did mana availability limit your options to a one-or-the-other scenario?

I'd say I cast dig 50/50 my turn/their turn. Mostly when I was doing it on my turn I was looking for something specific, when I was doing it on their turn I was looking for value. I often had 5 or 6 lands in play, and more than once had all 8 either in play or the graveyard after wasteland. I found myself routinely using all of my mana, even when there were 6 lands in play.

As for Terminate, I've done some testing with Dreadbore and thought it was good, but Sorcery speed is a bit of a liability. It may even get better now with Planeswalkers like Liliana and Espeth showing up more, but at Sorcery speed Innocent Blood was just better because there weren't a ton of Planeswalkers in the Cruise era. Going forward I'll test both it and Terminate, as the Instant speed might be enough to make up for 2 CMC like you said. Also, Recoil is surprisingly good.

My playgroup and I came to the same conclusion after discussing it, but I honestly haven't tested it. Dreadbore vs Terminate comes down to playstyle and preference. It's going to matter so few times one way or the other that I'd play the one that makes you feel most comfortable. What do you prefer in your games, passing the turn with mana up and options, or holding a spell that can answer anything they play? I don't think there's a "right" answer

Do you think the deck is able to run Murderous Cut in place of Terminate?

You could, but I don't think you should. The 2CMC just wasn't a liability. I'm coming to this deck from years of playing Team America, where Maelstrom Pulse and then Abrupt Decay have convinced me that versatile removal spells that cost more than 1 really aren't that bad. I can't think of a single instance all day where Terminate costing 2 was a big deal, and I can think of several instances where Murderous Cut would've been decidedly subpar.

[JosephK]

Congratulations for your results.

I think that your point of view on Terminate is a little biased by your results (and pairings) and by the great feelings you had got in destroying siege rhino ^^. Let's be honest, the card is bad. It is not very good with snap because of its manacost and is terribly bad in non creature Mus. With Dig snap pyro and blasts, innocent blood will deal with any creature (the case you mention tnn vs 2 goyfs is quite marginal). If you want to deal with random cards like siege rhino or kotr, just adapt your sb (perish is an option). You can't play snap in grixis without at least one main deck pyroblast. You didn't encounter Miracles or Omnishow for instance, which are both DTB (and quite played in Europe) and where pyroblast is necessary.

Otherwise, I quite agree with your opinion on Dack. Jace is a (very) nice substitute.

[btm10]

I think that your point of view on Terminate is a little biased by your results (and pairings) and by the great feelings you had got in destroying siege rhino ^^. Let's be honest, the card is bad. It is not very good with snap because of its manacost and is terribly bad in non creature Mus. With Dig snap pyro and blasts, innocent blood will deal with any creature (the case you mention tnn vs 2 goyfs is quite marginal). If you want to deal with random cards like siege rhino or kotr, just adapt your sb (perish is an option). You can't play snap in grixis without at least one main deck pyroblast. You didn't encounter Miracles or Omnishow for instance, which are both DTB (and quite played in Europe) and where pyroblast is necessary.

I don't think this is quite right. I expect considerably fewer people on Miracles in the US now as a lot of people (at least at my local) are going back to the BUG decks that prey on Miracles (and based on my preliminary testing, Grixis). These decks run Goyf and Liliana (which Pyroblast can't answer and against which Bolt is pretty marginal) and where Dreadbore/Terminate are big upgrades over Pyroblast. We run enough cantrips (and Dig and Dack) that getting to 4 or 5 mana isn't an issue, especially with adding a land. If BGx decks that aren't BUG come back, more than a singleton MB Pyroblast is going to be pretty loose. You aren't scared only of the Green creatures out of these decks as both Tasigur and Tombstalker are viable options, and Junk in particular floods the board with creatures making Innocent Blood less effective.


Another option that I've been tempted to try is adding a small green splash out of the board for 2 Decays if you're in a Miracles heavy meta. I haven't tested this, but unless they go back to Ruination/Blood Moon as staple sideboard options it should be a big deal in the matchup.

[Jeff]

I didn't encounter Miracles, but I did play against a hard UWR control list. No tops, but still Jaces, Counterspells, Council's Judgments, etc. Similar deck strategy. Won 2-0.

I don't understand why you think Innocent Blood is good in a deck with only 4 ways to make a creature you actually want to sacrifice to it. I don't understand why you think it's good in a metagame where a lot of the creature decks are encouraged to put multiple creatures on the board. How many times are you going to have an Innocent Blood and be looking at a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and think "I really wish this could kill that Tarmogoyf"?

I routinely had situations where my only creature on board was a Baleful Strix or a True-Name Nemesis. I don't know in how many of those situations I drew terminate and killed something with it, but I know that on a regular basis I would not have wanted to sacrifice my strix or TNN to Diabolic Edict my opponent. I played against the fastest creature decks in the format (U/R and RUG) and at no point in those matchups was the 2nd mana I had to spend on terminate a liability.

Beyond that, I'm amused that you're arguing that Terminate is bad in non-creature matchups and then telling me I should play Innocent Blood.

[JosephK]

I don't think this is quite right. I expect considerably fewer people on Miracles in the US now as a lot of people (at least at my local) are going back to the BUG decks that prey on Miracles (and based on my preliminary testing, Grixis). These decks run Goyf and Liliana (which Pyroblast can't answer and against which Bolt is pretty marginal) and where Dreadbore/Terminate are big upgrades over Pyroblast. We run enough cantrips (and Dig and Dack) that getting to 4 or 5 mana isn't an issue, especially with adding a land. If BGx decks that aren't BUG come back, more than a singleton MB Pyroblast is going to be pretty loose. You aren't scared only of the Green creatures out of these decks as both Tasigur and Tombstalker are viable options, and Junk in particular floods the board with creatures making Innocent Blood less effective.

If you expect a junk meta, then I agree that Terminate>Pyroblast but I prefer to come prepared vs Miracles in a big event (also vs Delver and blue in general). For Tasigur and Tombstalker, we have Jace too. The deck answers planeswalkers with young pyromancer (liliana is bad against us).

I didn't encounter Miracles, but I did play against a hard UWR control list. No tops, but still Jaces, Counterspells, Council's Judgments, etc. Similar deck strategy. Won 2-0.

The main problem of the Miracles MU is only one card : counterbalance (Entreat is not a problem in general). The UWR control MU is quite different because they have a strong late game too (I don't know if you face a 4 Dig version) but no "game breaking" cards. (I consider Miracles as a combo MU with this deck).

I don't understand why you think Innocent Blood is good in a deck with only 4 ways to make a creature you actually want to sacrifice to it. I don't understand why you think it's good in a metagame where a lot of the creature decks are encouraged to put multiple creatures on the board. How many times are you going to have an Innocent Blood and be looking at a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and think "I really wish this could kill that Tarmogoyf"?

If strix is alive, you don't need to cast innocent blood. Sacrificing a yp token or snapcaster is not a problem. The one creature you don't want to sacrifice is tnn. It's not that difficult to play with that in mind. I also play only 1 tnn. Maybe we play the deck slightly differently.
The main difference between terminate and innocent blood is that one deals with tnn, the other doesn't. As a control deck, this is something I want to be able to do.

Beyond that, I'm amused that you're arguing that Terminate is bad in non-creature matchups and then telling me I should play Innocent Blood.

Pyroblast, Innocent blood and Terminate were discussed :). I'm not telling you what you should play^^ ; you made me realize some things. I was quite reluctant at first to play 4 dig (thinking that it was too mana hungry) but I will definitely play 4 from now on. Thank you for posting on this forum and make the discussion go further.

[cheerios]

@Jeff:

Have you tried playing diabolic edict instead of terminate? I'm currently playing 2 edicts in my version and has been happy so far with the results.

[Jeff]

@Jeff:

Have you tried playing diabolic edict instead of terminate? I'm currently playing 2 edicts in my version and has been happy so far with the results.

I did not consider that. When building the deck I was far more concerned with Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Tasigur than Nimble Mongoose or True-Name. Is there some other consideration I should be aware of that makes edict better?

[cheerios]

@Jeff: Edict can kill all the mentioned creatures (specifically TNN) and is easier to cast if you are using more basics in the deck. It can be useful against decks with mother of runes since you don't have to play around mom and just let them sac a creature with it. Btw I'm playing 4 bolts, 2 forked bolts, and 2 edicts with 9 creatures only.

[Jeff]

@Jeff: Edict can kill all the mentioned creatures (specifically TNN) and is easier to cast if you are using more basics in the deck. It can be useful against decks with mother of runes since you don't have to play around mom and just let them sac a creature with it. Btw I'm playing 4 bolts, 2 forked bolts, and 2 edicts with 9 creatures only.

All of that is true, but I would take the ability to kill Tarmogoyf when there's something else on the board over any of that. There's no right answer, I don't think, it's another narrow thing that comes down to personal preference.