Would legacy benefit from a restricted list?

[Vicar in a tutu]

This thread is yet another display of more people becomming uneasy with the power of blue in legacy. Brainstorm is the obvious culprit, but Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time pushed blue even further over the top (certainly with the printing of Innistrad, blue got the best aggro-creature and then with Commander 2013 one of the best midrange creatures). I wish Wizards had printed real hate cards against card draw (like they did against a lot of unfair decks with Containment Priest), Spirit of the Labyrinth should have been 2/1 flash.

Now I just hope Wizards prints strong nonblue cards that you can't just jam into brainstorm-decks. This might include powerful cards for Goblin and Enchantress. Here are a few examples:

Eidolon of Rapture
Enchantment Creature - Spirit
Exalted
Enchantment spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
1/2

Goblin Kinsight
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
You may tap a Goblin you control instead of paying Goblin Insight's mana cost.
Exile the top three cards of your library. Until end of turn, you may play Goblin cards exiled this way.

Sentinel of Svartwald
Creature - Zombie Giant Wall
Defender
Whenever a player draws a card, that player loses 1 life.
0/3

[Lemnear]

This thread is yet another display of more people becomming uneasy with the power of blue in legacy.

No, this and the other threads we had the last 3 weeks are just a testament that people don't understand that there is already a B&R thread and that their personal opinion doesn't deserve a sperate thread.

Those threads are pretty funny once you realize that the complaints are in fact not about format health, diversity or fun, but root on a bizaar image of color represenration and/or personal preferances

[Fatal]

I misses the poll - it should stay opened to see the results on higher spread of votes.

[nevilshute]

Off the top of my head I don't see the 'restricted list' concept being particularily beneficial in a Legacy context. The restricted list was bourne out of a need by some insanely powerful cards. Case in point being the Power Nine but also cards like the tutors, Sol Ring and others. I don't think the concept is transferable in a 1:1 way.

So, we restrict Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, Show and Tell, Natural Order? Stuff like that?

Restricting most cards in legacy, I think, would be tantamount to just banning them, as the cards themselves are not powerful enough to make up for the loss of consistently drawing them (I know, Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage). Having one Natural Order? And no realistic way to tutor for it? What deck would play it? The same for Show and Tell. The same for LED probably.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that while having a restricted list works in Vintage, I think it only does because of the absence of a banned list the therefore extreme power level of the card pool altogether. Yes you can only play with one Brainstorm, but you also get to play with one of: Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor etc. Not to mention unrestricted stuff like Gush.

[Higgs]

We don't have tutors so restricting would be the same as banning imo

[Sloshthedark]

Off the top of my head I don't see the 'restricted list' concept being particularily beneficial in a Legacy context. The restricted list was bourne out of a need by some insanely powerful cards. Case in point being the Power Nine but also cards like the tutors, Sol Ring and others. I don't think the concept is transferable in a 1:1 way.

So, we restrict Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, Show and Tell, Natural Order? Stuff like that?

Restricting most cards in legacy, I think, would be tantamount to just banning them, as the cards themselves are not powerful enough to make up for the loss of consistently drawing them (I know, Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage). Having one Natural Order? And no realistic way to tutor for it? What deck would play it? The same for Show and Tell. The same for LED probably.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that while having a restricted list works in Vintage, I think it only does because of the absence of a banned list the therefore extreme power level of the card pool altogether. Yes you can only play with one Brainstorm, but you also get to play with one of: Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor etc. Not to mention unrestricted stuff like Gush.

the problem is restriction run into more restriction and less diversity - the day you restrict BS -> all deck play 4 SDT 1 BS - restrict -> 1SDT, 1BS, 4x Enlightened tutor (for UWx) ... restrict E tutor -> restrict ... at this point a lot of things like Bargain, Mystical and others are also "only" restricted and we end up with bizzare highlander Storm/reanimator Combo in vein of Tin Fins and Miracle/landstill style control which share the same mandatory "evil cantrip-tutor cartell" vs happy playsets of creatures... and here we have a poor crippled brother of vintage

[Fatal]

It's not logical:
How does changing decks to run more different cards makes them - less diversity ?

[Vicar in a tutu]

No, this and the other threads we had the last 3 weeks are just a testament that people don't understand that there is already a B&R thread and that their personal opinion doesn't deserve a sperate thread.

Those threads are pretty funny once you realize that the complaints are in fact not about format health, diversity or fun, but root on a bizaar image of color represenration and/or personal preferances

People are frustrated, so they start to vent. Much of this has "boiled over" and started pouring out of the B&R-thread. This frustration is made worse by Wizards' neglect to unban cards that most people feel would be perfectly safe, like Black Vise. And then: Bam, another release with overpowered blue cards. Also, it's no use trying to pretend that a person's personal magic-preferances isn't important to that person's stand in the B&R-debate. Wizards is fine with legacy being dominated by blue, that springs out not only of many personal preferences of Wizard-employees, but also of many players elsewhere. I personally prefer unbannings, as well as agressive new printings that target the overpowered draw-cards.

[Lemnear]

People are frustrated, so they start to vent. Much of this has "boiled over" and started pouring out of the B&R-thread. This frustration is made worse by Wizards' neglect to unban cards that most people feel would be perfectly safe, like Black Vise. And then: Bam, another release with overpowered blue cards. Also, it's no use trying to pretend that a person's personal magic-preferances isn't important to that person's stand in the B&R-debate. Wizards is fine with legacy being dominated by blue, that springs out not only of many personal preferences of Wizard-employees, but also of many players elsewhere. I personally prefer unbannings, as well as agressive new printings that target the overpowered draw-cards.

I'm not here to debate about cards like Vise for obvious reasons. If People want WotC to fix the problem, they should put some work into a balances and founded essay and send it to Aaron. Opening the 4th thread about bannings within a week here on this small microuniverse of Legacy has no effect and is even less relevant if the arguments are that bad.

Or have you heared someone ever complain that all non-dredge Vintage decks start with SoLoCryMoxen and this stifles diversity?

I'm aware of peoples complaining about blue and the B&R management since my re-entry of the format in 2005

[Vicar in a tutu]

I'm not here to debate about cards like Vise for obvious reasons. If People want WotC to fix the problem, they should put some work into a balances and founded essay and send it to Aaron. Opening the 4th thread about bannings within a week here on this small microuniverse of Legacy has no effect and is even less relevant if the arguments are that bad.

Or have you heared someone ever complain that all non-dredge Vintage decks start with SoLoCryMoxen and this stifles diversity?

I'm aware of peoples complaining about blue and the B&R management since my re-entry of the format in 2005

I agree that the discussion of this should be constrained to the B&R-thread (strangely enough, I'm still posting here on this thread). I hope Wizards prints strong new draw-engines in colours other than blue in the near(ish) future.