Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 131920212223
Results 441 to 457 of 457

Thread: On Blue

  1. #441

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    What exactly has a Brainstorm-lock to do with skill? Seriously? A trained monkey can put cards back with Brainstorm and shuffle them away with fetchlands.
    Putting aside the question of which cards to put back, which is a test in which I think your trained monkey will find itself outperformed by most humans most of the time, there is the question of when to play Brainstorm if you don't have a shuffle effect ready, since it can sometimes be a gamble. Ponder, not so much. I am sure that is what bt10 meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    By that logic, decks without library manipulation would be the ultimate skilltester. The only difference between a Brainstorm-lock and normally drawing like shit without library manipulation is that you know that you're fucked when Brainstorm-locked. It also amazes me that some people seriously consider a Brainstorm-lock as actual drawback of the card. At the very least, you still dig one card deeper.
    Of course it's a drawback. Brainstorm takes up actual card slots in a deck, you know. You play cantrips instead of other cards, counting on them to find what you need, when you need it. Sometimes it fails.

  2. #442
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    The Arctic
    Posts

    323

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I do disagree on Mana Drain, though. Drain would exert a much stronger influence on deckbuilding than Brainstorm by making cards with CMC > 3 almost unplayable unless they're blue and have a large colorless component to their costs or straight up win the game like Natural Order. That's a much more onerous deckbuilding restriction to put on the format than "run blue to be the most consistent".
    Umm, aren't they already almost unplayable due to the speed and efficiency of the format. Which is why Abrupt Decay is so good, because it kills pretty much every threat.
    Wouldn't Drain actually increase the # of spells playable because it would fuel some of the bigger mana cost spells and make them actually playable.

    Though I might be biased since I completed a set of drains ~ 10 yrs ago and want to play with them.

  3. #443
    banned

    Join Date

    Jul 2013
    Location

    black metal bed room
    Posts

    2,188

    Re: On Blue

    It still surprises me how many facets of BS is the community willing to discuss, while there's clearly one and only thing (right?) that needs to be evaluated when speaking of potential ban: is the card overpowered?
    And inb4 "but we ban only warping cards, not op ones", well, that's not entirely true: warping cards are those powerful ones, amirite? Except for strange stuff like Shahrazad and Falling Star and Rebirth, are there cards that warped the field by any other aspect that their power? I guess that power of Tinker, Will, Survival, etc. was what "forced" the people to play them, not e.g. art or w/e else.
    So, if we can agree that it's the power what makes a card a "metagame warping mechanism", and if we can agree that this is the overall reason to ban cards, might we finally come to some conclusion about BS, one that might be chosen of these three possibilities:

    - it's not op, thus it should remain in format
    - we don't know
    - it's op, lets ban it.

    No more monkeys returning lands to shuffle them away, no more "it allows more archetypes than it suppresses", no more "I'd quit if they (don't) ban it", no more color-related stuff - although I need to admit that I really dislike how they push color blue, as it leads to repetetive boring gaming experience -, no more of these things. Simply:

    Is BS too strong or not?

  4. #444
    plays Mountains
    Ace/Homebrew's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2011
    Location

    Philadelphia Area
    Posts

    2,257

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    The best part of a TsumiBand post often is not the fact that it's true, but the Easter Egg you get to find,
    I'm just hoping I don't get fired for Googling 'Stoya' at work...

  5. #445
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Umm, aren't they already almost unplayable due to the speed and efficiency of the format. Which is why Abrupt Decay is so good, because it kills pretty much every threat.
    Wouldn't Drain actually increase the # of spells playable because it would fuel some of the bigger mana cost spells and make them actually playable.

    Though I might be biased since I completed a set of drains ~ 10 yrs ago and want to play with them.
    I took the bait once, not doing that again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    So, if we can agree that it's the power what makes a card a "metagame warping mechanism", and if we can agree that this is the overall reason to ban cards, might we finally come to some conclusion about BS, one that might be chosen of these three possibilities:

    - it's not op, thus it should remain in format
    - we don't know
    - it's op, lets ban it.

    No more monkeys returning lands to shuffle them away, no more "it allows more archetypes than it suppresses", no more "I'd quit if they (don't) ban it", no more color-related stuff - although I need to admit that I really dislike how they push color blue, as it leads to repetetive boring gaming experience -, no more of these things. Simply:

    Is BS too strong or not?
    While I am not wholeheartedly for the ban, I think we don't know exactly, but data almost certainly points to "it's OP."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I'm just hoping I don't get fired for Googling 'Stoya' at work...


    Luckily I still retain all my pre-marriage knowledge. As far as Easter Eggs go though, that is a pretty nice one to find.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  6. #446

    Re: On Blue

    I suppose this tournament is relatively small (45 players), but non blue decks dominated. Only 8 brainstorm in the top 8. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8644&f=LE

    Edit: Just thought it was interesting to share. Not saying this single tournament proves anything.

  7. #447

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by cogitoergosum View Post
    I suppose this tournament is relatively small (45 players), but non blue decks dominated. Only 8 brainstorm in the top 8. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8644&f=LE

    Edit: Just thought it was interesting to share. Not saying this single tournament proves anything.
    It's a good site and the one I use when I'm looking at archetypes.

    All 2011 lists: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=61

    All 2012 lists: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=6

    All 2013 lists: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=80

    All 2014 lists: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=81

    What it documents is a meta heavily defined by Brainstorm and Force of Will in which the percentages of said dominance are creeping up year after year. This is because WotC keeps printing good cards and Brainstorm continues to be the best way to find them and protect them and Force of Will continues to be the best way to protect them and to stop opposition use of them.

    Brainstorm and Force of Will were in just over 50% of all Legacy top 8 (4) lists in 2011. They're in just over two-thirds of all such lists now. They'll be in about eighty percent of all such lists in 4 years. By that time Underground Sea will be a $700 card and the other blue lands will be close. Plateau will be only a $100 card. Yay Plateau!

  8. #448
    Play Deed. Nuke the World.
    EpicLevelCommoner's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Posts

    321

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    It still surprises me how many facets of BS is the community willing to discuss, while there's clearly one and only thing (right?) that needs to be evaluated when speaking of potential ban: is the card overpowered?
    And inb4 "but we ban only warping cards, not op ones", well, that's not entirely true: warping cards are those powerful ones, amirite? Except for strange stuff like Shahrazad and Falling Star and Rebirth, are there cards that warped the field by any other aspect that their power? I guess that power of Tinker, Will, Survival, etc. was what "forced" the people to play them, not e.g. art or w/e else.
    So, if we can agree that it's the power what makes a card a "metagame warping mechanism", and if we can agree that this is the overall reason to ban cards, might we finally come to some conclusion about BS, one that might be chosen of these three possibilities:

    - it's not op, thus it should remain in format
    - we don't know
    - it's op, lets ban it.

    No more monkeys returning lands to shuffle them away, no more "it allows more archetypes than it suppresses", no more "I'd quit if they (don't) ban it", no more color-related stuff - although I need to admit that I really dislike how they push color blue, as it leads to repetetive boring gaming experience -, no more of these things. Simply:

    Is BS too strong or not?
    Phrase in bold for emphasis: what of Mind Twist and Mana Drain remaining banned? Or perhaps you'd like to explain why Griselbrand remains unbanned despite being a reanimatable Yawgmoth's Bargain on a body?

    Power is not the sole reason why a card is banned or stays banned (even ignoring gimmicks like conspiracy, dexterity, ante, etc.). In the end, it comes down to what's fun for the majority of players (regardless of competitive level). And, as Modern ban policy has indicated, that boils down to how long a given game lasts (i.e. why absurdly powerful cards like Power 9 are banned, despite the fact that anyone that could run them would run them) and how diverse a given meta is (i.e. why cards like Flash, Bazaar of Baghdad, Frantic Search, Tolarian Academy, etc. are banned). Now, I'm not gonna lie: power is a big part of why these cards even see the banned list in the first place. But it's how that power impacts that meta (just like to say again that we play with decks, not individual cards) whether for the better or for the worse, and right now Brainstorm+Ponder helps more decks than it hurts.

    To answer your question though: it's strong, but not too strong.

  9. #449
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    But it's how that power impacts that meta (just like to say again that we play with decks, not individual cards) whether for the better or for the worse, and right now Brainstorm+Ponder helps more decks than it hurts.

    To answer your question though: it's strong, but not too strong.
    I was initially totally against banning Brainstorm but in looking at and analyzing the metagame data, I think it is really Brainstorm that is holding down innovation, because no matter how much you innovate, your creation is probably inferior to a Brainstorm deck. I think the community has really optimized those builds to a point that there are so few gaps that Brainstorm is now it's own best answer and I don't believe that's healthy.

    It isn't as if I am gnashing my teeth and pulling out my hair over it, I just feel like the Legacy meta is not really all that healthy where Brainstorm is so overwhelmingly dominant.

    While people want to misconstrue the fact that I am saying that banning Brainstorm as merit, I often play Brainstorm, so it isn't as if I just have some irrational hatred for it. In fact, I love Brainstorm, but what my feelings tell me and what the data tells me are definitely at odds.
    Last edited by H; 12-05-2014 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Putting commas where, they don't, belong...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  10. #450
    get outta here, humanity.
    iamajellydonut's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2009
    Location

    Butugychag
    Posts

    2,031

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Last edited by H; Today at 08:18 AM. Reason: Putting commas where, they don't, belong...
    And you didn't even fix it!


    Anyway, of all the arguments for banning Brainstorm, "I don't hate the card, but I think it's really good" is probably the weakest. There are a few reasons, but the more popular reason is that there will always be a new "best" card that will see too much play. And there's also the consideration that Brainstorm isn't oppressive, which is a fact that counts for quite a bit. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were stifling and oppressive. Affinity was stifling and oppressive. Cards have been banned and will be banned for a variety of valid reasons. From being oppressive to just being broken like Yawgmoth's Will. But "they were really good and we felt like it" has never been a justifiable reason. That's how the Survival of the Fittest we all lament over got banned, and it's the reason no one likes Modern.

  11. #451
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    The Arctic
    Posts

    323

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think the community has really optimized those builds to a point that there are so few gaps that Brainstorm is now it's own best answer and I don't believe that's healthy.
    Then you do not understand what Brainstorm does, Brainstorm is not an answer to Brainstorm. Brainstorm + shuffle effect is the most popular answer to the problem of deck consistency. The other real option is deck redundancy which tends to leave you with less options in game, but a much more consistent deck that is faster because it does not need to waste as much resources fixing its hand. Brainstorm allows you to run a more varied and random deck with more answers at the cost of speed and consistency when you do not draw a Brainstorm. It means you are less likely to fold when thrown a curve ball.

    I honestly wonder if we went back to the old Paris mulligan rules where the first one was free, how much would that help deck consistency, because the more consistent your deck is on its own, the less Brainstorm does for your list when you add it in.

  12. #452
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,843

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    While I am not wholeheartedly for the ban, I think we don't know exactly, but data almost certainly points to "it's OP."
    Popularity is not a measure I would be willing to use to argue if a card is too powerful, is just a measurement to say that a card IS powerful.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  13. #453

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I was initially totally against, banning Brainstorm but in looking at and analyzing the metagame data, I think it is really Brainstorm that is holding down innovation, because no matter how much you innovate, your creation is probably inferior to a Brainstorm deck. I think the community has really optimized those builds to a point that there are so few gaps that Brainstorm is now it's own best answer and I don't believe that's healthy.

    It isn't as if I am gnashing my teeth and pulling out my hair over it, I just feel like the Legacy meta is not really all that healthy where Brainstorm is so overwhelmingly dominant.

    While people want to misconstrue the fact that I am saying that banning Brainstorm as merit, I often play Brainstorm, so it isn't as if I just have some irrational hatred for it. In fact, I love Brainstorm, but what my feelings tell me and what the data tells me are definitely at odds.
    There is no such thing as a brainstorm deck. There are decks that run brainstorm. Aluren is nothing like Delver which is nothing like Sneak N Show.

  14. #454
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    And you didn't even fix it!


    Anyway, of all the arguments for banning Brainstorm, "I don't hate the card, but I think it's really good" is probably the weakest. There are a few reasons, but the more popular reason is that there will always be a new "best" card that will see too much play. And there's also the consideration that Brainstorm isn't oppressive, which is a fact that counts for quite a bit. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were stifling and oppressive. Affinity was stifling and oppressive. Cards have been banned and will be banned for a variety of valid reasons. From being oppressive to just being broken like Yawgmoth's Will. But "they were really good and we felt like it" has never been a justifiable reason. That's how the Survival of the Fittest we all lament over got banned, and it's the reason no one likes Modern.
    You should have seen it before I edited it then,

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Then you do not understand what Brainstorm does, Brainstorm is not an answer to Brainstorm. Brainstorm + shuffle effect is the most popular answer to the problem of deck consistency. The other real option is deck redundancy which tends to leave you with less options in game, but a much more consistent deck that is faster because it does not need to waste as much resources fixing its hand. Brainstorm allows you to run a more varied and random deck with more answers at the cost of speed and consistency when you do not draw a Brainstorm. It means you are less likely to fold when thrown a curve ball.

    I honestly wonder if we went back to the old Paris mulligan rules where the first one was free, how much would that help deck consistency, because the more consistent your deck is on its own, the less Brainstorm does for your list when you add it in.
    The general answer to beat Brainstorm decks is to match their consistency. The best way to do that is to run Brainstorm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Popularity is not a measure I would be willing to use to argue if a card is too powerful, is just a measurement to say that a card IS powerful.
    The data doesn't show it as merely popular, it shows it as fundamentally more likely to top 8 a tournament. Now, if you want to make a case that this is because of it's popularity, you can do that, but you need to show how the data supports your premise. Mind you, I do believe that premise has some merit, but I feel there is more going on, but I can't prove it without data.

    Quote Originally Posted by AznSeal View Post
    There is no such thing as a brainstorm deck. There are decks that run brainstorm. Aluren is nothing like Delver which is nothing like Sneak N Show.
    OK, you got me, they are nothing alike, except they all run Brainstorm and some number of other Blue cards?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  15. #455

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Is BS too strong or not?
    I think it is because bs power level is really close to ancestral recall.

    I mean, draw 3 and put 2 dead cards on top with a shuffle effect avaliable is tecnically as good as "draw 3" (a hand that's 5 good cards and 2 dead cards it's equal to a hand of 5 good cards).

    Difference is that brainstorm is a card that needs experience to be played optimally. Turn one brainstorm is not that good (it's almost like casting a "fair" cantrip like ponder) but sometimes is a necessary evil if you need lands, combo pieces, or to protect important cards from discard spells (in this last scenario bs is even better than ancestral). From turn 2 brainstorm (+fetch) is potentially an ancestral: here comes the experience, you have to understand what cards in your deck are dead in the current matchup (also you have to recognize what your opponent is playing) and you have to program a plan for your next turns.

    I would like to stress that in every game you'll have at some point dead cards, no matter what deck are you facing. I'm talking about lands. Delver decks in particular are pretty good at this: because they play only higly efficent spells, after 2-3 lands every other becomes a dead card ready to feed ancestr... err... brainstorm.

    In a magic christmas land, where each draw is a good draw, brainstorm would be 100% inferior to ancestral, but we all know how magic works and that dead cards are a thing (removal against most of control and combo decks, extra lands, late game discard spells ecc...ecc...).

  16. #456

    Re: On Blue

    It cracks me up that people seriously contend Brainstorm isn't grossly overpowered. The fact that 8 out of 10 tournament-winning decks, on average, run and rely upon Brainstorm to function as effectively as they do says it all as far as I'm concerned. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is. When will it become overpowered, when a full 100% of competitive decks must run a playset and you can't compete unless you're using Brainstorm? I think there's so much push-back against people complaining about Brainstorm because so many people love to win... and when 80% of people succeeding are playing Brainstorm when they play to win on a competitive level that means you have a lot of people who are loath to give up their most powerful weapon.... one that gives them an unbelievable advantage when put up against anyone not running the card. I personally couldn't care less either way though, I only play for fun anymore.

  17. #457
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: On Blue

    We already have a thread for endlessly bickering about Brainstorm. Take it back over there.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)