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Thread: On Blue

  1. #261
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by testing32 View Post
    Yes, or he stared into the eye of mordor a little too long.

    Edit: and why do people think "ban brainstorm" is a casual/competitive arguement? It's not.

    If anything these are competitive players who don't want to play suboptimal no bs lists and don't want to play the same stale crap every week where "different decks" are <15 cards different.
    This bears repeating: There are many, many hats one can wear, many jobs for people to do. A game designer's/balancer's job is to make a fun game that can withstand cutthroat competition if it's meant to. A tournament player's job as a competitor is to do what he thinks gives him the best EV within the rules. A person playing games in his free time wants to have fun playing the game. A TO is concerned with rules' clarity, enforceability, whether games can be finished on time and so on. A spectator wants variety and interesting situations. Maybe storylines too.

    And that's the thing. My color balance comments are not from a tournament player's point of view.

    When I don my tournament player hat, I look to tune my pile of little pointy-eared gits so it can take the tournament and grind so I'll hopefully see good enough lines to do well at the event.

    But when I don my "guy spending his free time" and "spectator" and "game designer" hats, I see disaster and monotony. And that's kind of the thing. I'm not complaining as a competitor because as a competitor my task and mindset is always the same. What do I own, what can I borrow, what's the best 75-76 I can cobble out of those and get enough practice with? Ban something from Elves, for example, and it's not the competitor in me that is going to be angry. He is just going to scour forums and tinker and see if the archetype is salvageable and if not, move to something else.

    The part that would be angry with it and ask if it's worth it anymore is the "free time" guy, because he loves Elves and doesn't like the feel of blue near as much (though he's fine playing stuff like Team America or Storm). The game designer might also be angry because there's much worse stuff in the format, but ultimately he might understand - half the deck is straight from a who's who of the banned lists, after all.

    So that's the thing. Please stop glorifying yourselves as some pure competitive spirits if you don't want Brainstorm banned and say others just want to play their shitty pet decks, because it's not the competitor in them speaking: Quite rightly, too, because it's not the competitor's place in to speak, but rather the game designer's. The only thing the competitor might take issue with is if the ban compromises the integrity and skilltesting nature of the format, which it would not because Ponder, Preordain, Ancestral and JTMS are cards in addition to all the nonblue card selection whose relative value would go up, up, up.
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  2. #262

    Re: On Blue

    Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor (Mystical Tutor is blue, and that is a drawback and wouldn't stop the maindeck REB without thinking about it) is a good unban, because it would make Storm really powerful. Then maybe more non blue decks with Vampiric Tutor will show up to fight the fair deck, who now have to dilute their deck with maindeck Flusterstorm to fight Storm.

    Maybe i'm wrong and the format will be utterly broken with 4 Vampiric Tutor, but we can at least think about it.
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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post

    Delver is just the best Brainstorm wincon at the moment. The most players will always gravitate toward the best shell. The first SCG after Delver was legal had 24 Brainstorm in the top 8 and 0 delver. The format was plenty blue before people picked up on Delver.

    BBD and Kassis both used Young Pyromancer to great effect. In fact you could argue that an evasive threat in the form of Delver is the only thing keeping BUG on the map at this point because of the ground stalls Young Pyromancer produces. Then we'll talk about banning Young Pyro, then Stoneforge Mystic. The real problem is Brainstorm.
    Stop using this slippery slope fallacy, as not only is it absolutely missing why Delver is oppressive, but it also can be applied to the so called Cantrip Cartel.

    Yes, I agree that Delver is the best archetype with Brainstorm, and that Brainstorm is the best card in Delver. The data I posted a few pages ago suggests so.

    However, for the health of the format, we should explore options that increase deck diversity as opposed to card diversity, .and banning Brainstorm wont do that.

  4. #264
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I have never heared that Vintage players ever complained that all non-dredge/workshop decks running SoLoCryMoxen and near-all running Ancestral, Walk, Will, etc. ever created a boring and repeditive experience.
    Vintage what? Sry, man, I don't give a fuck about that format.

  5. #265
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I have never heared that Vintage players ever complained that all non-dredge/workshop decks running SoLoCryMoxen and near-all running Ancestral, Walk, Will, etc. ever created a boring and repeditive experience.

    MTG is STILL not chess. Not every match begins by moving a pawn.
    All those cards you listed are effectively banned in Vintage. Players don't complain about a repetitive experience in Vintage because they WANT to play with restricted cards, even if that create an essentially repetitive format.
    Legacy players in theory don't have to play with 30+ identical cards lists. Legacy is the format where you can play cards from all the eras of magic, but without having to play 40+ identical cards lists because of some design mistakes of the past. We're getting there however, with TC and probe adding to the cantrip cartel.
    Ironically, Vintage players whined a lot about Workshop because it stop them from playing SoLoCryMoxen, Recalls, walks etc... then Dack got printed and everyone was happy.

  6. #266
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    All those cards you listed are effectively banned in Vintage.
    Do you, occasionally, read your own nonsense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Vintage what? Sry, man, I don't give a fuck about that format.
    And because you don't care about my argument, that makes it invalid? Is this a repeating pattern in this discussion?
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  7. #267
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Do you, occasionally, read your own nonsense?
    You disagree with the notion that whenever a card is deemed too good in Vintage it get restricted, and what happen in every other format in the same circumstances is banning, so Restricting is effectively "banning" a card because it's too good, with the difference that Vintage can't actually ban card for power level reasons because that's what Vintage is?
    It seems a pretty simple concept to me honestly. I'll try to be more clear:
    All those cards you listed were deemed too good for Vintage, so they got restricted. Yours was a false equivalence, if it was. A better equivalence should've been: " do you hear Vintage players complaining about everyone playing 4 x FoW and 4 x MM or 4xcardthatisplayedeverywhere and say that those should be restricted?".
    Because Vintage players whining about the same exact cards they play Vintage for make little to no sense

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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Really WotC should ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise and Sensei's Divining Top. It's not like blue would suffer from having no ways to look at cards after that and it's not like anybody else's options would get better, they'd just be playing on a more even field with blue-based lists.
    The format without cantrips or rather meaningful interaction with the top of your library is called modern. So I'll make the argument 'go play modern' for you.

    Other than that there's 20 years of magic cards. Are colors going to be balanced? Are individual cards even going to be balanced? I guess you can pretty safely say no. There will always be a strongest card (perceived or real) and that card will be played in a competitive environment. And legacy tournaments have become about making sure you get the stuff from your deck you want when you want it, because your stuff is powerful. Don't like it? Play even crazier stuff without card selection and try to get lucky. Can't win? No one saw that coming but that's the way it is.

    If you want to change the meta game, why stop at banning brainstorm? Ban everything that was registered at GP NJ, that will give you a wonderful new meta game to play legacy in. I for one much rather play with more options than less, both in card choices (but BS forces you to build your decks like this..... but so do other cards) and in matches. Brainstorm allows you to do fun stuff instead of just hoping for that top deck and drawing blindly while the guy opposite you does the same. Otherwise we could all just play standard, wizards gives a crap about that format, so if you cry hard enough what you want, maybe they will give it to you there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    "Sometimes people advocate the banning of Brainstorm from Legacy, and it's okay to kill those people."

  9. #269
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    MTG is STILL not chess. Not every match begins by moving a pawn.
    Sure.

    It starts with "Island, Ponder".

  10. #270

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Sure.

    It starts with "Island, Ponder".
    Is there any skilled player (some GP Top 8's, PT grinder etc.), who hates on blue and wants Brainstorm to be banned? Magic already has enough RNG in the other formats, with dangerous skill territory (a lot of Hearthstone decks are more complex, less RNG than most Standard& Modern decks).

    Before we start banning BS, or other blue consistency tools, why not give other colors consistency cards instead and let everyone have fun? If Wotc bans BS, they'll have no reason to print such cards in other colors.

    I have a strong suspicion, that the people who want to ban Brainstorm are just bad players, who want to decrease skill in legacy. If you want more undeserved wins, there are plenty of other formats that are easier than Hearthstone. Go try them out.
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  11. #271

    Re: On Blue

    I agree on not banning brainstorm, but it always goes down to the skill argument, and that one is always tricky.

    I mean, just how many people keep terrible hands because of brainstorm? I wonder where the real skill is at.

  12. #272
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    Re: On Blue

    Yes, there is. Chris Pikula answered 'Brainstorm' when asked live on stream what he thought should be banned.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  13. #273
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Adryan View Post
    Is there any skilled player (some GP Top 8's, PT grinder etc.), who hates on blue and wants Brainstorm to be banned? Magic already has enough RNG in the other formats, with dangerous skill territory (a lot of Hearthstone decks are more complex, less RNG than most Standard& Modern decks).
    Pikula and Smennen both though that banning brainstorm would benefit the format. Pikula thought BS should be banned, while Smennen only commented that he thought that it would benefit the format in term of strategic options but didn't express an opinion. In general smennen has always been pretty conservative on banning and more liberal on unbanning. He was one of the strongest anti-survival ban activist for example:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Will-Be-Anyawy

    I have a strong suspicion, that the people who want to ban Brainstorm are just bad players, who want to decrease skill in legacy. If you want more undeserved wins, there are plenty of other formats that are easier than Hearthstone. Go try them out.
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  14. #274

    Re: On Blue

    "Benefit the format" means different things to different people. It is clear that banning it would increase color diversity, weaken combo and tempo decks, and decentralize the metagame. But it would also decrease the amount of skill required in the format, increase the power of "goodstuff" midrange, perhaps allow noninteractive decks like Stax to flourish, and lower the average amount of decision points in a game, thus making it less interesting at a high level. The supporters of both sides think that they're "benefitting the format," and they're both right. It just depends on which of these you value most.

  15. #275
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    Re: On Blue

    Also someone previously in this thread mentioned that two of the Top 8'ers of the GP also thought it should go and was too good (paraphrasing).

    Most good and skilled people i've talked to who play legacy regularly (and other formats too) seem to think it's absurdly powerful and way above anything else, but being the spikes that they are, are happy to play it for as long as it's legal cause it's the best thing to be doing by far and everything else is not even close or worth considering (except elves). Most would not shed any tears if it went other than for selfish reasons. There was never a compelling reason to not play Jace/SFM in standard before the bannings if all you cared about was winning, regardless of how much you hated the deck or cards. BS is the same way.

    I haven't sleeved up a non BS deck in legacy in a super long time other than for fun low stakes events, despite my dislike for it and wanting it to be banned. There just aren't any compelling incentives to not run it if you care about winning and it is legal in the format.

    When Flash was legal I top 8'd and won a bunch of local events in the lead up to the GP, at no point did i think it was fair or good for the format, but it was nonsense to not be playing it if i cared about winning.

  16. #276
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Adryan View Post
    Is there any skilled player (some GP Top 8's, PT grinder etc.), who hates on blue and wants Brainstorm to be banned? Magic already has enough RNG in the other formats, with dangerous skill territory (a lot of Hearthstone decks are more complex, less RNG than most Standard& Modern decks).

    Before we start banning BS, or other blue consistency tools, why not give other colors consistency cards instead and let everyone have fun? If Wotc bans BS, they'll have no reason to print such cards in other colors.

    I have a strong suspicion, that the people who want to ban Brainstorm are just bad players, who want to decrease skill in legacy. If you want more undeserved wins, there are plenty of other formats that are easier than Hearthstone. Go try them out.
    I would not weep if Brainstorm is banned. I don't think it helps Legacy that the top 80% of the decks are basically the same 40 cards. That's bordering on Vintage "Big Blue" territory and is the reason why Thirsti For Knowledge, Ponder, and Brainstorm got restricted in one fell swoop.

    I would be less for a Brainstorm ban if WotC actually made more relevant cards. Instead we got:
    Treasure Cruise
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  17. #277

    Re: On Blue

    I don't ever see Blue becoming less dominant just because it is the sole home of flexible countermagic and cheap filtering/card drawing spells. Another factor is the prevalence (or perception of) of fast combo and most decks without Islands just don't stand a chance. Fear is a powerful motivator.

    I'd rather bring up the power level of other color through unbans rather than trying to nerf Blue. For example, I think Memory Jar would make MUD decks a lot better and it's abuse in combo decks is much less likely because Ad Nauseum is so much better.

    Legacy is much more fun when you can play more cards.
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  18. #278
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    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    I would not weep if Brainstorm is banned. I don't think it helps Legacy that the top 80% of the decks are basically the same 40 cards. That's bordering on Vintage "Big Blue" territory and is the reason why Thirsti For Knowledge, Ponder, and Brainstorm got restricted in one fell swoop.
    Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Merchant Scroll, and Ponder were the ones restricted in one fell swoop and largely for unrelated instances. The restricting of Brainstorm and Ponder were banned because of each other with purely coincidental timing with regards to anything else. Flash was restricted because Flash. Gush was restricted because Gush. Merchant Scroll was restricted because Flash and Gush.

    Thirst for Knowledge was restricted some time later to stem the tide of Time Vault, and was done so without any impact or influence.

  19. #279

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Adryan View Post
    I have a strong suspicion, that the people who want to ban Brainstorm are just bad players, who want to decrease skill in legacy. If you want more undeserved wins, there are plenty of other formats that are easier than Hearthstone. Go try them out.
    Jon Finkel when asked what card he would ban he said brainstorm. I think he is pretty good.

    If you want a format where everyone plays with the same pieces and the best player that day always wins, you should be playing chess.

  20. #280

    Re: On Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    This is a pretty fun paragraph, considering an Ancestral Recall was just printed.
    And yet it's still worse than Brainstorm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I have never heared that Vintage players ever complained that all non-dredge/workshop decks running SoLoCryMoxen and near-all running Ancestral, Walk, Will, etc. ever created a boring and repeditive experience.

    MTG is STILL not chess. Not every match begins by moving a pawn.
    Nitpick, but not every game of Chess begins by moving a pawn. 1.Nf3 is a reasonably popular opening move.

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