Force of Will could be banned, but only if they unban Mental Misstep. Not sure exactly, but it would hurt the prevalence of blue decks without throwing the entire format into combo hell.
Still think Delver is the bigger issue though ... though having something with utility that can deal with it would be nice.
Posted in B/R thread, posting here for relevance:
Ok, so many people are calling for weird bans that I actually went and did some math.
I took the top 16 of each of the past 3 SCG Opens, Separated them by Deck, Archetype, and Colors. When I have some free time, I'll go back and include GPNJ and any other tournaments you guys can provide me with top 16 info. Here are the results:
There is one number that is clearly larger than all the other numbers: Delver. It's not even close to other archetypes. Blue has a commanding lead with Red not too far behind, and everything else quite under-represented. Delver represents 30% of the past 3 Top 16s, compared to 12.5% for the next best finishing archetypes (Miracles and Stoneblade).
So then I decided to see what the results look like if we remove the delver decks.
That looks a lot better, though still skewed a bit. Miracles and Stoneblade are now 17.5% of the meta, Dredge and Storm are 12%each, Elves is 9%, Death and taxes, Lands, and Sneak and Show make up 6% each. Blue falls to 59%, with Red basically tied, but now White is close, with Black and Green still underrepresented. But if there aren't any delver decks, perhaps Black and Green decks could fill in the missing slots.
Anyways, here's some numbers to chew on. To me, this screams "Delver is the issue!", but I can understand why some people would disagree - even I didn't realize how skewed it was towards Delver before I threw this together.
What do you guys think would happen if Delver of Secrets got the axe? (Just curious, not being rhetorical or snarky.)
It always felt to me that it was to try and kill/neuter combo decks. by weakening their tools for consistency.Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
The problem being that since Vintage decks are so varied due to the restricted cards that you need something to reduce variance in a competitive environment (as no one like losing games because they drew the wrong card) and Brainstorm+shuffle effect was doing that job.
Though that was also around the time they started with Mythic rares which disillusioned me with the game for a while, and I know a couple players who stopped competitive play due to dislike of some of wizards policies that came out shortly afterwards. Also I first heard about EDH a little while before the bannings, so to me at least that format was growing in popularity at the same time, and might have takes some of the vintage player base with it, I know some people who pretty much gave up on other forms of Magic to play EDH (and pre-releases).
Personally, I think Jund comes back in a big way. This May be skewed because there's a very good local Jund player, but Jund seems like it has really good matchups vs Miracles and Stoneblade.
With the loss of their signature evasive threat, all forms of Delver decks (UR, UWR, RUG, BUG, etc.) would have to use other options such as Nimble Mongoose, Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Deathrite Shaman, etc., returning to their roots as Tempo decks. Since none are the same evasive clock that Delver is, this gives non-Delver non-combo a chance to buy time against Delver decks without necessarily needing removal then and there. They would still have to fight against combo, but at least the Delver/Tempo matchup is more in their favor than currently, and the presence of Delver itself would check the combo decks. Miracles would still have similar matchups since I really doubt its the evasion and not the clock that allows Delver to fight it.
Really, it wouldn't change much except make it more of a rock-paper-scissors between Blue Non-Combo, Non-Blue Non-Combo, and Combo. But that's what makes it such a good option: it hits the biggest target hard without completing warping everything.
This would make for a curious predicament for blue tempo shells. On one hand, they need to resort to the old guard of green creatures in Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf to stay afloat. On the other, those win conditions play incredibly poorly with Treasure Cruise. Though really, it'd probably just lead more of those types of players to run BBD's winning UWR Stoneblade list, or at least iterations close to that. But at least it would slow those decks down a bit without a turn two 3/2 flyer, and UR would no longer be a (really good) thing.
FWIW though, I think that's the best course of action in general. Blue decks, although still overwhelmingly popular, weren't as oppressive pre-Delver as they are currently post-Delver/Cruise/TNN.
My personal experience with DeMars has shown me that while he is a smart player, his method of vocalizing it and reasoning it are much closer to "kitchen table magic".
At the conclusion of a series of games *in Vintage* where he piloted Smenendian's Burning Oath Tendrils and I with Grixis Slaverless, he lamented the fact that I was getting lucky by (correcting identifying and) countering his Oath and winning out from there. Mind that we played ~10 games which is statistically insignificant to form a broad opinion.
He writes: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ain-AGAIN.html
Clearly, I was cheating in playtesting against a player I respect[ed]. That experience with Demars made me realize just the type of player he is. The "On Blue" article he writes is more in line with Hoogland's Modern/Legacy article than actually breaking down the point that Brainstorm is the best thing to do in Leagcy. He also misses Miracles in his analysis, which indicates he's looking through the lens of a single event, rather than the last months' of events.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I will now evoke Nedleeds and summarize this thread in hashtags.
#SkillIntensive #IWouldQuit #SomethingAboutVintage #PlayModern #PillarOfFormat
Miracles is the best overall list when it is piloted by a great player. It's not a great list in the hands of the average player. All the other lists he mentioned can be leveraged by almost any competent pilot.
I don't play Miracles because I'm just not fast enough to make it work. I go into the tank too often when presented with 3 cards to look at and the need to setup 2 and 3 turns down the road. I make minor play mistakes all the time. With most of the lists I pilot that doesn't matter, the list is solid enough that it will overpower the opponent as long as I don't make a critical error along the way. With Miracles every time I give away minor value I am dramatically increasing the chance that I will lose.
I'm guessing that's why he didn't list it. It's not a great list in most player's hands and it will not reward somebody quickly for picking it up and trying to play it.
I think that UR burn would still be a very strong deck. You lose delver, replace it with goblin guide and take more of a burn route. This would still be the best treasure cruise deck. The UWR blade deck and Miracles would still be the best decks. Combo would still be depressed.
If they ever printed another overly aggresive 1 drop we would be back in the exact same spot we are now except complaining about that creature.
Miracles was 2 of the top 8 at GPNJ. He didn't miss it because it didn't show up in front of him. He missed it because it's not a great list in most player's hands. UR Delver is a great list in anybody's hands but it requires a very good player to get by the great players prepared to handle a powerful one trick pony at the end.
My thoughts on banning Delver over Brainstrom are similar to banning Vengevine instead SoTF.
Like Delver is anywhere from bad/fair to excellent in formats without BS, but super insane with it.
Isn't he not actually saying/accusing you of cheating but using the example to illustrate a point?
Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but that's how i understood those two paragraphs.
They could print a 5/5 for 1 and I would still say Delver is a problem because it isnt the body: its the body and the evasion.
See there is thing called blocking that can allow decks to buy time searching for answers if not answer it by blocking then and there.
Fuck that argument. Just fuck it. You know it's bullshit and a strawman argument so incredibly stupid it boggles the mind, yet you keep making it. Why? A card's color has a distinct impact on gameplay, and the game has, what a surprise, been designed around the idea of a card's color being meaningful from the get go. The game is designed to have five colors. Not one.
Set numbers? Don't matter. At all. You know it. They're completely outside gameplay, and intentionally so.
So please STFU. I know you can make an intelligent argument if you'd only bother, so please do or just shut the fuck up and don't spew that drivel ever again.
I don't read that article as an actual accusation of cheating. He shouldn't have used the phrase though. What he was saying was that in playing Magic he went 4-4 against an opponent who had 8 consecutive excellent hands.
I finished second at a 128 person tournament in 1994 and had Black Lotus in my opening hands 3 of the 5 games in the final. After I played my second opening turn Serra Angel I heard somebody gasp behind me and say "he's had lotus in his opening hand four games in a row now!" It was my opponent from the semis that I had beaten 3 games to none with opening turn Juzam Djinns or Erg Raiders with Unholy Strength all 3 games. It happens.
My opponent in the finals was a guy I played late in tourneys all the time. He knew me and he had seen things bounce both ways so he just smiled at the comment. Then he StP'd the angel and went on to beat me three games to two.
If the guy behind me had accused me of cheating or even used the words in an offbeat manner I would have been pissed. Magic is Magic. You get lucky some times and you're totally screwed sometimes. The blue shell skews this some in your favor but it still isn't definitive, it's just enough of an edge to make you have to play it.
Your version of health differs greatly from many others. I think Brainstorm at 80% +, maindeck REBs and Pyros, isn't a healthy meta. Health in legacy to me is that no spells have overwhelming (80-90%) ubiquity, you can build 60 cards decks, not 56 or 52 or 48 card decks.
Brainstorm goes 14 for 16. That seems healthy? WTF? Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8-12 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'skill intensive', 'go play modern', 'go play vintage', 'core card', 'i would quit' and other indirect non-answers that have absolutey no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards
You think Preordain is comparable to Brainstorm. You show your complete ignorance of the power level of cards with idiocy like this. Preordain is vastly inferior to Brainstorm in a world where shuffling in the middle of the game is legal. You expose yourself as a bit of a troll when you say things like this, because I can't believe anyone who has played any amount of legacy with the cantrip cabal would ever think this. You then propose banning 4 cards that have nowhere near the raw power or ubiquity of Brainstorm cementing your ignorance. But I'll bite on your troll. Ponder and Preordain are great cards for filtering and mana fixing, but they (in a world with fetch lands anyway) are leagues below Brainstorm for a number of reasons. One is the obvious synergy with shuffle effects (ponder touches this a bit but still isn't close to brainstorm). The other huge one is that Brainstorm is the best protection against disruption in the form of discard. You have to Ponder in your main phase. Ponder and Preordain would remain staple blue cantrips, but when Brainstorm is banned you'll see targeted discard become more effective (oh ... and also, targeted discard is 'skill intensive').
Nobody is crying to play pet decks, people are just pointing out the obvious crutch cards, and nobody can provide a compelling reason not to play Brainstorm.
Really? Skill intensive is still the best you clowns can come up with? How hard is it to unmulligan with Brainstorm? Stop repeating the semi-pro bullshit line of Brainstorm being this holy fucking grail of skill in magic. Which just isn't true. So many cards test "skill" many more so then your average 'I haven't hit my land drop' brainstorm. The whole 'skill intensive' argument which discounts the game state is just dumb anyway. Umezawa's Jitte can be a skill intensive (tm) card when you are facing an Ensnaring Bridge with an equipped Noble Hierarch. Targeted discard can be the most skill intensive (tm) activity in magic, because it involves thinking through your future lines of play, their lines of play, your resources, the %'s of their top decks, their mana ratio, your threats, etc. etc.. Brainstorm can absolutely be a card that requires tough decision making, weighing odds and resources, but it's not some fucking Jacobian matrix problem. The other blue cantrips are just as skill intensive (tm) as a Brainstorm because they are less powerful and don't allow you to just exchange situationally more powerful cards at instant speed and shuffle the trash away.
Go innovate? Why? Brainstorm is a crutch for all the decks you talk about, control, combo and aggro. It makes the format too easy. It makes deck building too easy. Ban it and then you go build a fucking deck without such a crutch.
Or as I've said a billion times unban some of the cards that are a joke in the face of Brainstorm, Show and Tell, and Griselbrand.
Next up are the trolls telling me that lands should be banned. Nobody ever refutes the arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. You say brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything.
Treasure Cruise without Brainstorm is fine, my hope is it was a bone thrown to the Cult of Brainstorm to pad the loss of their sacred skill testing fucking blue messiah.The format is becoming Vintage 2.0, where 30+ cards on your list have to be the same just because of how much better than the rest of the format they are, basically a circlejerk format for blue mages. In the meanwhile, cards much weaker than brainstorm are still on the banned list, but this is all good for WotC because the format becoming as degenerate as possible is good for modern popularity. Printing TC was probably their way to say "fuck eternal formats"
STFU about pet decks and condescending every poster like they are yearning to play Cavern of Beasts. It's about not starting deck construction at 52, or 56 cards. You are building 56 card decks right now because there is no compelling reason, besides a chalice on 1 not to play 4 x Brainstorm. It doesn't take a savant deck builder to realize that.
One Death and Taxes player not succumbing to a triple Karakas mulligan twice in 9 rounds isn't reflective of another cards power level. He's also likely an order of magnitude better at Magic than 75% of the players he faced. Have you ever registered for an SCG? People don't know what activated abilities are. It's about a coin flip for people missing beneficial triggers in the early rounds.
Posted in B/R thread, posting here for relevance:
Ok, so many people are calling for weird bans that I actually went and did some math.
I took the top 16 of each of the past 3 SCG Opens, Separated them by Deck, Archetype, and Colors. When I have some free time, I'll go back and include GPNJ and any other tournaments you guys can provide me with top 16 info. Here are the results:
There is one number that is clearly larger than all the other numbers: Brainstorm. It's not even close to other archetypes. Brainstorm has a commanding lead with delver not too far behind, and everything else is day old shit. Brainstorm represents 71% of the past 3 Top 16s.
And fuck this line of argument too. Ponder and Preordain will still exist, and now you have to consider whether mulligans are discard-proof, whether to keep mana open or not, whether a card is actually too clunky to play, all manner of stuff which Bullshitstorm excuses you from.
#nedleedstags.
Yup, think Brainstorm is banworthy, want to play other colors on more even terms with blue, you don't understand the format. Ab-so-lute-ly. Brilliant logic. Wait, it's not. It's the same kind of inane drivel Julian keeps spouting about collector numbers.
Hey Ned, if you cut out the delver decks brainstorm becomes much less common in the top 8, and that's before we even consider that non-brainstorm decks might take it's place (decks like Jund, burn, or nicfit). Can you at least agree with that assessment?
Again, im not saying that if you ban delver then nin-brainstorm decks will be just as good as brainstorm decks (I think that would take a while to sort itself out), just can you agree that if we banned Delver, brainstorm would be significantly less "ubiquitous"?
But why not just ban brainstorm to knock down the power of Delver?
This is VVine vs SoTF all over again.
@Nedleeds
Thanks for that rebuttal/response. I agree with 100% of it and you saved me having to write that up myself.
So many disingenuous arguments.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
