[Article]Eternal Europe: Innovation Spotlight III

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

It's time for another one :)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...acy-Decks.html

[Sisyphos]

IMaybe I just don't understand some hidden weakness here. If you can come up with something, let me know.

Best explanation for the transformational sideboard of the Leyline deck I could come up with is: possibilities to play around hate cards. The main deck cannot win against a resolved Teeg or Leyline of Sanctity for example. Both SnT/Titan and PainterStone can ignore Teeg. SnT/Titan can ignore Leyline. You can also screw up opponents bringing in Revoker or Needle by switching out your combo kill of choice. If the deck is as fast as it looks, Teeg/Revoker should in theory be too slow to really matter, but maybe it comes up from time to time. With a deck like this it could also be like Dredge, Oops all Spells! or Belcher where you can run 15 Atogs in the board if you want to (Hyperbole I know), so maybe it's just for lack of better options and shoring up the 1% of matches it might matter in.

[Ellomdian]

Oh man, Iggy Pop meets Leyline.

"In a world where Force of Will isn't a card, there can be only one Combo..."

[Barook]

Lejay's list is sadly already outdated since it now runs a MD KotR and two Mox Diamonds, with a second Dryad Arbor to guarantee a T1 GSZ for it.

[M+1]

With the power level of Treasure Cruise added to the blue cantrip shell, there are those that are once again shouting that Legacy is stale because you're "forced to play blue."
You know what? You're forced to play blue because you're spending your time complaining instead of working on the format.

Well said.

[DLifshitz]

With the power level of Treasure Cruise added to the blue cantrip shell, there are those that are once again shouting that Legacy is stale because you're "forced to play blue." You know what? You're forced to play blue because you're spending your time complaining instead of working on the format. Did it really have to take this long for someone to figure out that Green Sun's Zenith can be both your acceleration and your lategame consistency in a Chalice of the Void deck? How about someone getting over the bias against multiple Sylvan Libraries in the last ten years the card was legal (it even keeps you from drawing dead extra copies of itself)?

Legacy is alive and healthy, and innovation is going on and still paying off. Yes, there are a ton of blue strategies running around and succeeding. How can that be a surprise when at least half the player population is working on actually getting only those decks to work?

I find this bad logic. As in "The format is fine because go build a better deck." This line of argumentation attempts to shift the focus away from the perceived staleness of the format and to portray the complainers as lazy and whiny. A few subtle ad hominems later on (saying people are crying and raging) continue along this line. And the latter paragraph is a tacit admission that the starting point for any better deck really is the blue cantrip shell.

[Gheizen64]

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest. Drop a tons of list that place scarcely, say people don't innovate, and then proceed to go see tournaments swarmed and won by U-based decks. Pyroblast and maindeck chokes being highlighted as smart decision whereas they're simply answer to an inbred 70%+ blue meta, and even with all those maindeck hate piece those deck don't sport a particularly favored matchup vs U-decks. There was also a 4 Chains +4 blasts maindeck Jund list that won a Brazil tournament, that's some really smart innovation too /s

[force_of_phil]

These articles seem to be getting more and more biased. Pick a needle out of a haystack and use it to make generalizations.

[Svknoe]

I liked the article. It's always nice to see new approaches to the format.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@Sisyphos: Makes sense, though I'm as doubtful of it being right here as I was when that Dredge deck popped up that transformed into Painter postboard - and Dredge at least really has to deal with disgustingly powerful hate.

@Barook: Sweet! Thanks for letting me know, though I was happy to find a list for the deck at all thanks to Google. Is there a thread for deck somewhere on here? I haven't been as avidly reading the forums for a while now as I did in the past, sadly.

@M+1: Thanks :)

@DLifshitz: The thing is, Legacy decks are really hard to actually get to work. Just look at how long it took to get Storm, Death and Taxes, Elves and a number of other decks from the idea stage to the machines they are today. Given how many people legitimately prefer blue decks (plus the number of people who have bought into the "you must play blue" hype), the number of players working on any one non-blue strategy is comparatively minuscule when most of the hive mind is just working on making the blue decks better and better. It just makes sense that a lot of potential in non-blue shells isn't realized and it will never change unless those that don't want to play blue put in a ton of work. Complaining that the format is stale when those few that do put in the work come up with very different concoctions that do in fact work anyway is a sign that the problem is not exactly with the format. Heck, two of these decks are finally showing that running four copies of what is likely Green's most busted card in the format other than Natural Order and Glimpse of Nature (Sylvan Library) is actually a really good idea, in spite of the conventional (totally illogical) wisdom that Sylvan is a 1-2 copies card "because multiples are dead."
As for the last paragraph, it isn't any tacit admission at all. It's just a reminder that the blue players are getting lazy with their Delver, Miracles and Stoneblade strategies, too. It's a call to the blue lovers out there to stop tuning the known and look for the potential other archetypes we could be building, too.

@Gheizen64: This is exactly the mindset that leads to the format feeling stale in the long run. You've decided there's nothing better than the blue cantrip shell, nothing to help non-blue decks to successfully fight variance and as a result you've decided not only that you should stop trying but also that everybody else who actually does is wasting their time - and you even try to convince people that they simply should stop trying and clamor for bans instead. Obviously these decks are random blips on the radar. The whole point of the article is to highlight fringe archetypes that have managed to be successful somewhere or that look like they have potential to me so that we don't sit around ignoring the next Death and Taxes for half a dozen years again and instead find people that want to work on tuning them and giving them playtime.
Chains plus Blasts in Jund is metagaming, not innovative deckbuilding. Intellectual dishonesty my ass.

@force_of_phil: How is the article biased? I mean, I can see considering the closing statement biased (which I was reasonably sure would raise some hackles) but the article itself is just presenting innovative decks that deserve a look from the community at large.

@Svknoe: Thanks :)

[amalek0]

@Sisyphos: Makes sense, though I'm as doubtful of it being right here as I was when that Dredge deck popped up that transformed into Painter postboard - and Dredge at least really has to deal with disgustingly powerful hate.

@Barook: Sweet! Thanks for letting me know, though I was happy to find a list for the deck at all thanks to Google. Is there a thread for deck somewhere on here? I haven't been as avidly reading the forums for a while now as I did in the past, sadly.

That's a travesty Carsten. Any time you're ready to come back into the light and do what you know is right, We'll be here to argue that your articles are intellectually dishonest, Brainstorm should be banned, and storm isn't a viable deck, among other lies ;)

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

That's a travesty Carsten. Any time you're ready to come back into the light and do what you know is right, We'll be here to argue that your articles are intellectually dishonest, Brainstorm should be banned, and storm isn't a viable deck, among other lies ;)

Ah, the beauties of internet discussion ;)

[Barook]

@Barook: Sweet! Thanks for letting me know, though I was happy to find a list for the deck at all thanks to Google. Is there a thread for deck somewhere on here? I haven't been as avidly reading the forums for a while now as I did in the past, sadly.

The deck is discussed and developed in this thread. First page also has some match-up discussion.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

The deck is discussed and developed in this thread. First page also has some match-up discussion.

Sweet, thanks!

[amalek0]

Ah, the beauties of internet discussion ;)

Why do you think I click to SCG every day looking to see if one of your articles is up? It's almost like a discussion with someone NOT over the internet. Then you get people like Lemnear who, while I respect the hell out of them as players and deckbuilders, come across as asshats most of the time on the forums.

[Echelon]

@Carsten: You do know the prevailing opinion on this board is that when your opinion differs from the popular opinion, you are wrong by default, right?

In general, I do agree with the premise. Even though I'm bored of seeing the blue shell, it is by no means the win-all, end-all. But unfortunately we can't force people at gunpoint to start playing different decks.

At the moment, I just go with Manaless Dredge and weep when someone drops a RiP/Grafdigger's Cage. No balls, no glory!

[Hopo]

Chains plus Blasts in Jund is metagaming, not innovative deckbuilding. Intellectual dishonesty my ass.

This is so important. Thanks for pointing it out, even when I'm sure it makes no difference to some people. By reading the Source one would almost think that no one knows what metagaming is anymore. People: if you are so sure there's a strictly best deck, play with it or metagame against it. That is how tournament magic works. This is so basic level shit that I don't even. Other options are to play something else or create something new. Also, there are numerous examples of skilled players winning whatever they feel comfortable with. If you think you can take down a tournament with maindeck blasts and chains, not playing those makes you a, well, not sure what exactly but at least you shouldn't be crying about how you lose to blue spells and card draw if you have a sound theory and the tools but refuse to play it out.

How do you know how a certain matchup pans out? You playtest. What is playtesting? It is playing the matchup ad nauseam until you know how it works and who is favored. This is not something that happens in tournaments. It's super sad to read about people "playtesting" when all they actually did was that they attended a tournament and got beaten up because they didn't know how they should play the matchups because they didn't test. You playtest your deck against the field in order to win tournaments. Tournaments are not for testing. And playtesting is how you find the metagame solutions or new decks. But it's simply too much to ask. For some reason this is perfectly clear to standard players, to limited players, to modern players and it was clear to former extended players. It seriously underlines that legacy is a casual format when the players themselvees don't treat it as competitive one but instead whine about irrelevant matters like colors of the cards, very good cantrips and other nonsense. You have 10 dual lands and 10 fetchlands to help you pick the best cards in all colours and build a deck. Broken things aside, whether some of these cards are also played by others is highly irrelevant.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

To sum it up: people dislike playing aganst 12 Ancestrals without their own 12 Ancestrals. Something something learn to innovate.

[Sisyphos]

@Sisyphos: Makes sense, though I'm as doubtful of it being right here as I was when that Dredge deck popped up that transformed into Painter postboard - and Dredge at least really has to deal with disgustingly powerful hate.

I'm also doubtful about the board configuration being the right one as in being the best one possible. But the explanation I mentioned was the only one I could come up with that gives a logical connection between the result (the given board) and the idea of having a sideboard (being able to react to problems your maindeck can't). Transformational sideboards are usually only applicable if there are indeed flaws with the maindeck strategy that can not be overcome, like extremely powerful hate you mention. And even then it is extremely narrow and sometimes it is a better solution to accept that you will simply loose because the transformational sideboard does not significantly increase your chances. Transforming Dredge into Painter dodges graveyard hate, but if the resulting attempts only chance of winning is by relying on your opponents hate cards to be irrelevant, their own win condition to be slower then yours and them not having any other non-specific-hate cards that can interact with the transformation, why bother?

A different point: As much as I liked the article, I would prefer if you could give more background on where you found the decklists you presented. Innovation is nice to have, but it is only useful if the result actually shows promise. For example the only information I can get out of the article about the power of the Helm/Gains deck is that it placed 7th in an unmentioned tournament. For all I know, it could have been an 8-man where the other players all played Kamigawa draft decks and where drunk. SCG labeling all tournaments not run by themselves as "Miscallaneous" or the lists as "Test deck" does not really help. For example for the Dark Depths deck you mention that it was the runner up in a 144-man tournament. That gives the result a lot more credit in regards to the innovation being worthy of continuing than the 7th place finish of the Helm/Gains deck in a tournament I know nothing about. It's a bit of a different thing with Lejay's list, as his name alone carries weight. I don't want you to track down information about random events you don't have, but then I would like to know about your lack of information to have a better baseline to differentiate between pure theory and innovation backed up by at least some results. Just a thought for further improving your great writing.

[NilsH]

Thanks for writing about my Grixis list. Your analysis regarding Spell Snare and Snapcaster Mage was spot on. My teammate and I made the same conclusions before the tournement. Spell Snare is very good right now, and did very well for met. Snapcaster might seem strange with delve, but keep in mind the list have lots of targets for him. Flashback Treasure Cruise is not unsual, and happend once or twice during that tournement.

Currently we're working on a list in UR colors, replacing Toxic Deluge with Pyroclasm.