This is an honest question, one to which I don't know if we have a clear and concise answer to.
We all know how Standard is defined, it is defined most often by it's current legal sets, not it's ban list. It's the "just new stuff" format, obviously.
Other formats have clear "identities" even if they aren't very good/liked. For example, Modern has a pretty clear identity, first, no cards are on the Reserve List. Second, (almost) every card was printed with the new frame. Third, the format is predicated on a pretty aggressive banning of most combo enablers (or at least, "fast combo").
Vintage is defined by it's use of both a banned and restricted list. Mostly by the restriction of very powerful cards that would be clearly banned in any other format. Indeed, it is the fact that "almost anything" goes in Vintage, just as a one-of. Indeed, as Wizards has posited, there are pillars as well, those being very powerful cards that define almost every type of deck in the format. They are Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Null Rod, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad. There are always meta game shifts and while Mana Drain (for example) is often used sparingly (or not at all) in decks that end up in that "pillar" the idea is really that of using these cards to give you an idea of meta-archetypes.
One could rephrase these pillars as Fast Combo (Dark Ritual), Blue (Mana Drain), aggro-control (Null Rod), artifact prison/aggro (Mishra's Workshop), and Graveyard combo (Bazaar of Baghdad). There can often be some melding, mixing, or amalgamation of these things, decks rarely only fit in to one "pillar," often because the "defining" cards are so powerful, most decks want access to as many as they can get. Vintage has so many powerful cards, often decks are defined or differentiated by what cards it doesn't run. For example, there are many Blue decks run in Vintage due to the power level of many cards in the color, for example, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain. The question becomes, for many of these decks, what not to run? No matter what your Blue deck wants to do, it probably wants to draw 3 at Instant-speed for .
To me that is the defining point of Vintage: cards so powerful, you need good reasons not to run them. Indeed, a large criticism of Vintage is how homogeneous decks tend to look, since most decks begin with the same "core" of restricted card. Indeed, most do, but it's what is done in the margins that really "defines" what the deck is. For example, an Oath deck and a TurboTezz deck might only differ by 15 cards, but the way the deck plays is quite different. It's been likened to the difference in DNA, say from Humans to Chimpanzees. Sure, 99% may be the same, but that 1% makes a very big difference.
I think I have belabored what I see as defining Vintage enough, so lets look at Legacy.
This is where the problem I have comes in. I simply cannot find what should really "define" Legacy. Is it the card pool? The ban list? The meta-game?
What would become Legacy was originally called Classic Restricted. I believe the original announcement was in a Duelist magazine from sometime near May or June of 1996, but I don't own it/can't find it online. I didn't play competitively at this time, but the Banned and Restricted list was originally tied to both the Vintage (Type 1) and Standard (Type 2) lists:
In 1997, this was changed:Originally Posted by http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9606b&L=mtg-l&F=&I=-3&S=&P=8282
At some point that I am not clear about, the policy was changed again, back to having a link between the Type 1 and 1.5 lists.Originally Posted by http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9705D&L=MTG-L&D=0&I=-3&P=6898&F=P
Here is where Wizards announces actual Legacy in 2003 though, not 1.5:
So, there still remains the main question. What should define Legacy? Is it the ban list? What should be our guide? Even though it's been a pretty long time we've had Legacy, what is our format's identity and how should it be defined?Originally Posted by http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/september-br-list-update-2003-09-03
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Legacy : the only format where you can play the full playset of Brainstorm.
Legacy: the only format where you can legaly cheat in the walking Yawgmoth's Bargain (thanks WotC for that awesomeness) and still loose.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
ABU dual lands with occasional Maze of Ith, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, The Abyss, Candelabra of Tawnos and Chains of Mephistopheles.
Last but not least, legacy will not be legacy without the broken cards from Urza block.
Basically any awesome card with old card frame would be a cornerstone, anything that isn't reprinted in Standard that is on the Reserved list.
I think what defines Legacy is the ability to play with Duals, old mistakes and answers all while having the most egregious mistakes spoken for. I think what defines Legacy is its ability to answer its own problems with the cards it has on offer. Its ability to self regulate and rotate, to change and grow all while offering a chance to play with some of the best and worst printings of Magic's history.
What defines Legacy? It's self regulating nature.
I forgot those are formats to. Altough Modern i cant imagine even playing it. Since Legacy allows me to play with cards from sets when i started mtg (Urza Block). The same kinda counts for vintage but somehow power 9 is still out of grasp, number of tournaments and players are extremely low and vintage kinda forces you in playing the same type of deck.
Huh? So Moxes? It seems to be your definition of Legacy is just cards you like, which doesn't really give me much insight in to the format itself.
Well, what defines "egregious?" Is Mystical Tutor egregious?
I think all the non-rotating formats are to some degree self-regulating. In fact, I think Vintage is the most self-regulating, since Workshop is a pretty hard punisher of any deck that wants to durtle around.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
The formats defining feature is: no restricted list and only a banned list.
The a/b dual lands are the defining cards of legacy because they provide the base to build decks of any color, they are so special they even dragged them through extended despite the rest of revised rotating. After that they were left in legacy (1.5) and vintage (1) alone.
The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.
Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.
Banned is banned obv. Yeah that's how legacy should be defined, it's eternal. No restrictions, no 1-off broken stuff like Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus or Strip Mine. Legacy shouldn't be defined by labels like Vintage where you have Workshop vs Bazaar vs Drain vs Gush Aggro vs Combo.
I agree with you here, I feel the same way about Vintage and the Restricted list.
This is definitely a problem I am seeing. There are cards that are just plainly better than others in Legacy, which leads right back to why Vintage looks the way it does.
How is the dichotomy different there then in Legacy, excepting that the names and the decks are different? You have tempo versus Combo, versus Control, versus Mid-range?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Well I would have mentioned the instant who should not be named but it would drag the thread to the same place it always goes. I think the problem is obvious enough that it's not worth arguing about. I like Vintage for the reasons I stated, it just feels powerful and broken and expensive and awesome. I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.
Well, I am a Vintage player, first-and-foremost. I only play Legacy more now because where I happened to move to.
I think part of the "problem" we have in Legacy is that the ban list is pretty wishy-washy and the player-base reflects that. Or maybe it's the reverse. I think the reason the format gets little "official" respect now-a-days, is exactly the issue I am asking about. I don't think Wizards has a good idea what the answer to this question is actually.
I mean, when people's honest response to B&R discussions is to call everyone a "newb" because they have creatures in their deck, or a similar non-sense "argument," something is seriously wrong.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I'd say that Legacy format is defined by original ABUR duals, ONS+ZEN fetchlands, no restricted list and heavy emphasis on color blue.
I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.
Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for control, aggro and others.
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I tend to think that the whole '4-of-everything' approach speaks to a certain range of deck reliability and consistency.
I don't know if I am willing to really follow you through that. In Vintage there are numerous kinds of Combo. Time Vault, Tinker/Robot, Storm, Dragon, Oath, even the rarely played, but still present Helm/Leyline. Hell, even 2nd place in the 132 player MTGO Vintage event was a mono-Blue Belcher deck. I've even played against Vintage Survival before (no, not in the Snapple bracket, it's actually pretty good).
Is that less than combo in Legacy? I guess, maybe. The difference is that there are tons of different ways to make a Time Vault or Tinker deck. There are even different Storm decks, TPS, Gush, Burning Oath, etc. You have not sold me that it's markedly less though, sorry.
That's reasonable to me. However, if the banned list is part of what defines Legacy, what should the banned list be defined by?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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