What should "define" the Legacy format?

[H]

This is an honest question, one to which I don't know if we have a clear and concise answer to.

We all know how Standard is defined, it is defined most often by it's current legal sets, not it's ban list. It's the "just new stuff" format, obviously.

Other formats have clear "identities" even if they aren't very good/liked. For example, Modern has a pretty clear identity, first, no cards are on the Reserve List. Second, (almost) every card was printed with the new frame. Third, the format is predicated on a pretty aggressive banning of most combo enablers (or at least, "fast combo").

Vintage is defined by it's use of both a banned and restricted list. Mostly by the restriction of very powerful cards that would be clearly banned in any other format. Indeed, it is the fact that "almost anything" goes in Vintage, just as a one-of. Indeed, as Wizards has posited, there are pillars as well, those being very powerful cards that define almost every type of deck in the format. They are Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Null Rod, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad. There are always meta game shifts and while Mana Drain (for example) is often used sparingly (or not at all) in decks that end up in that "pillar" the idea is really that of using these cards to give you an idea of meta-archetypes.

One could rephrase these pillars as Fast Combo (Dark Ritual), Blue (Mana Drain), aggro-control (Null Rod), artifact prison/aggro (Mishra's Workshop), and Graveyard combo (Bazaar of Baghdad). There can often be some melding, mixing, or amalgamation of these things, decks rarely only fit in to one "pillar," often because the "defining" cards are so powerful, most decks want access to as many as they can get. Vintage has so many powerful cards, often decks are defined or differentiated by what cards it doesn't run. For example, there are many Blue decks run in Vintage due to the power level of many cards in the color, for example, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain. The question becomes, for many of these decks, what not to run? No matter what your Blue deck wants to do, it probably wants to draw 3 at Instant-speed for .

To me that is the defining point of Vintage: cards so powerful, you need good reasons not to run them. Indeed, a large criticism of Vintage is how homogeneous decks tend to look, since most decks begin with the same "core" of restricted card. Indeed, most do, but it's what is done in the margins that really "defines" what the deck is. For example, an Oath deck and a TurboTezz deck might only differ by 15 cards, but the way the deck plays is quite different. It's been likened to the difference in DNA, say from Humans to Chimpanzees. Sure, 99% may be the same, but that 1% makes a very big difference.

I think I have belabored what I see as defining Vintage enough, so lets look at Legacy.

This is where the problem I have comes in. I simply cannot find what should really "define" Legacy. Is it the card pool? The ban list? The meta-game?

What would become Legacy was originally called Classic Restricted. I believe the original announcement was in a Duelist magazine from sometime near May or June of 1996, but I don't own it/can't find it online. I didn't play competitively at this time, but the Banned and Restricted list was originally tied to both the Vintage (Type 1) and Standard (Type 2) lists:

OK... According to the new Duellist, Type 1.5 is going to become an
official tournament form (indeed, they're going to play it at Origins,
evidentally). Here's the question:

Is the "banned" list for Type 1.5:
1. The banned and restricted lists from BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 (so
Feldon's Cane and Black Vise are both banned in Type 1.5)
2. The banned and restricted lists from just ONE of Type 1 and Type 2
(so either Recall is banned and Black Vise isn't, or Black Vise is banned and
Recall isn't)
3. All cards that are banned or restricted in both Type 1 and Type 2 (so
Recall and Black Vise are BOTH legal, since at least one tournament form doesn't
restrict them).

In 1997, this was changed:

DCI CLASSIC-RESTRICTED (TYPE I.5) FORMAT

2.5 CLASSIC-RESTRICTED DECK CONSTRUCTION:

Classic-Restricted tournament decks may consist of cards from all editions of Magic, any extension of the basic set, all promotional cards released by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and all limited-edition or stand-alone expansion sets.

2.5.1 Effective April 1, The Banned List for Classic-Restricted Tournaments

NOTE: Previously, cards that appeared by card title on the Restricted and Banned Lists for either Classic or Standard tournaments were also banned in Classic-Restricted play. This resulted in considerable confusion, and raised questions about the continued viability of this tournament environment. In order to both clarify the rule and maintain the viability of the Classic- Restricted tournament environment, the DCI will make changes to the Classic- Restricted Banned List independent from any other Restricted or Banned Lists. Black Vise and Strip Mine are therefore added independently to this list, and not as a consequence of their appearance on any other Banned or Restricted List. Consequently, they will remain on this list when Fourth Edition(TM) leaves the Standard environment and is replaced by Fifth Edition. Land Tax, however, will not appear on this list at that time.

The DCI will announce changes to this list four times per year, on March 1, June 1, September 1, and December 1. The Banned List for Classic- Restricted tournaments, effective April 1, 1997, is as follows:

Any card not specifically permitted by rule 2.5 Any ante card contained in any newly released card set Amulet of Quoz (IA) Ancestral Recall Balance Berserk Black Lotus Black Vise Braingeyser Bronze Tablet Candelabra of Tawnos (AQ) Channel Chaos Orb Contract from Below Copy Artifact Darkpact Demonic Attorney Demonic Tutor Divine Intervention (LE) Falling Star (LE) Fastbond Feldon's Cane (AQ) Fork Ivory Tower Jeweled Bird Library of Alexandria (AN) Maze of Ith (DK) Mind Twist Mirror Universe (LE) Mishra's Workshop (AQ) Mox Emerald Mox Jet Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Rebirth Recall (LE) Regrowth Shahrazad (AN) Sol Ring Strip Mine Tempest Efreet Time Walk Timetwister Timmerian Fiends (HM) Underworld Dreams (LE) Wheel of Fortune Zuran Orb (IA)

At some point that I am not clear about, the policy was changed again, back to having a link between the Type 1 and 1.5 lists.

Here is where Wizards announces actual Legacy in 2003 though, not 1.5:

“Type 1.5”

We finally split the B&R lists up, and gave “Type 1.5” its own banned list. I will state for the record that this list is a work in progress. I have no doubt that our efforts move the format in the direction we feel it needs to go, but at the same time I'm sure that all of our research, testing, and discussion did not nail down all the problems that a format with this many cards is bound to have. Creating a new format--which is basically what is happening here--will require time and effort, and with that we will need your understanding an patience. We will be revisiting this list over the next year as a metagame forms around it.

Players from all over the world have been calling for such a separation for years, claiming that a format cannot hope to have its own identity if the legality of its card pool is a slave to another (very different) format. In the past, we felt that the format would never be popular enough to necessitate burdeing players with another list of banned cards to memorize, so we were content to essentially manage both Vintage and “Type 1.5” with one list. But with the impending rotation of the Extended format next year, we felt the need to make sure there was a reasonable format available where players could use their old cards (everything from dual lands to Ice Age cards to Rebels) that was not just a toned-down version of Vintage. We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play.

What are our plans for the format? Our Organized Play department is still sorting that out. We do hope to use “Type 1.5” more somehow, especially after Extended rotates in 2005. Exactly where and how often is still being discussed. In the meantime, I urge shop owners to give the format a try by running smaller tournaments at your stores. We'd love to hear about them.

The full banned list for “Type 1.5”:

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Entomb
Falling Star
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Grim Monolith
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Metalworker
Mind Over Matter
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Replenish
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

What's on there:

Ante cards and dexterity cards: These two categories include cards like Contract from Below and Chaos Orb. It is generally accepted that cards such as these have no place in tournament Magic.

The Power Nine and other cards that are restricted in Vintage on their own merits: This section includes stuff like fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Channel, Tolarian Academy, etc.), card drawing (Wheel of Fortune, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Windfall, Necropotence, etc.), and lots of other cards that have proven to be problematically strong, such as Strip Mine, Dream Halls, Mind Twist, Balance, Mind's Desire, and Yawgmoth's Will.

Dominant cards that have been considered for restriction in Vintage: Here's where the list departs from what it was previously. Some cards exist at power levels that are on the brink of acceptability for even Vintage, which makes them dominant in “Type 1.5.” Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask all fit into this category. Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players.

Cards that are/were banned in Extended: Not every card that has ever been banned in Extended is banned in this new format, but we felt the most powerful ones had no place here. These include Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Replenish, and newly exiled Skullclamp and Metalworker. With “1.5” now a little less like Vintage and a little more like Extended, it makes sense that the banned list is a compromise between the two. Most of these cards are very cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against.

What's not on there:

The second-tier fast mana cards: We left off cards like Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal to give aggressive creature and combo decks the tools they'd need to battle control. Time will tell if this is too much fast mana, but it is a good place to start.

The second-tier tutors: Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Demonic Consultation may be banned, but Mystical and Enlightened Tutor are both legal.

Various other powerful cards: Fact or Fiction, Survival of the Fittest, Regrowth, and Goblin Lackey are all extraordinarily powerful cards that we decided to make legal. We want to keep the format healthy and balanced without making it overly weak and without having a banned list that is five pages long. These cards (as well as a few others) will be on our radar as this new format finds its legs. Hopefully they will add excitement without upsetting the proverbial apple cart.

There you have it. Hopefully these changes make you happy and tempt you to give one or more of these formats a second look. Our goal is long-term health for all of our formats, and I believe we've taken some great steps in accomplishing that with this announcement.

So, there still remains the main question. What should define Legacy? Is it the ban list? What should be our guide? Even though it's been a pretty long time we've had Legacy, what is our format's identity and how should it be defined?

[Anen]

Legacy : the only format where you can play the full playset of Brainstorm.

[Bobmans]

Legacy: the only format where you can legaly cheat in the walking Yawgmoth's Bargain (thanks WotC for that awesomeness) and still loose.

[H]

Legacy : the only format where you can play the full playset of Brainstorm.

Thanks for contributing.

Legacy: the only format where you can legaly cheat in the walking Yawgmoth's Bargain (thanks WotC for that awesomeness) and still loose.

I've seen it and had it happen to me before in Vintage. I also imagine it's happened in Modern too, although I don't play that enough to know.

[death]

ABU dual lands with occasional Maze of Ith, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, The Abyss, Candelabra of Tawnos and Chains of Mephistopheles.

Last but not least, legacy will not be legacy without the broken cards from Urza block.

Basically any awesome card with old card frame would be a cornerstone, anything that isn't reprinted in Standard that is on the Reserved list.

[Dice_Box]

I think what defines Legacy is the ability to play with Duals, old mistakes and answers all while having the most egregious mistakes spoken for. I think what defines Legacy is its ability to answer its own problems with the cards it has on offer. Its ability to self regulate and rotate, to change and grow all while offering a chance to play with some of the best and worst printings of Magic's history.

What defines Legacy? It's self regulating nature.

[Bobmans]

I've seen it and had it happen to me before in Vintage. I also imagine it's happened in Modern too, although I don't play that enough to know.

I forgot those are formats to. Altough Modern i cant imagine even playing it. Since Legacy allows me to play with cards from sets when i started mtg (Urza Block). The same kinda counts for vintage but somehow power 9 is still out of grasp, number of tournaments and players are extremely low and vintage kinda forces you in playing the same type of deck.

[iamajellydonut]

Last but not least, legacy will not be legacy without the broken cards from Urza block.

Even though their use is a relatively recent "innovation" and can be more credited to the other halves of the combo, but ok.

[H]

Basically any awesome card with old card frame would be a cornerstone, anything that isn't reprinted in Standard that is on the Reserved list.

Huh? So Moxes? It seems to be your definition of Legacy is just cards you like, which doesn't really give me much insight in to the format itself.

I think what defines Legacy is the ability to play with Duals, old mistakes and answers all while having the most egregious mistakes spoken for. I think what defines Legacy is its ability to answer its own problems with the cards it has on offer. Its ability to self regulate and rotate, to change and grow all while offering a chance to play with some of the best and worst printings of Magic's history.

What defines Legacy? It's self regulating nature.

Well, what defines "egregious?" Is Mystical Tutor egregious?

I think all the non-rotating formats are to some degree self-regulating. In fact, I think Vintage is the most self-regulating, since Workshop is a pretty hard punisher of any deck that wants to durtle around.

[nedleeds]

The formats defining feature is: no restricted list and only a banned list.
The a/b dual lands are the defining cards of legacy because they provide the base to build decks of any color, they are so special they even dragged them through extended despite the rest of revised rotating. After that they were left in legacy (1.5) and vintage (1) alone.

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

[death]

Huh? So Moxes? It seems to be your definition of Legacy is just cards you like, which doesn't really give me much insight in to the format itself.

Banned is banned obv. Yeah that's how legacy should be defined, it's eternal. No restrictions, no 1-off broken stuff like Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus or Strip Mine. Legacy shouldn't be defined by labels like Vintage where you have Workshop vs Bazaar vs Drain vs Gush Aggro vs Combo.

[H]

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

I agree with you here, I feel the same way about Vintage and the Restricted list.

Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

This is definitely a problem I am seeing. There are cards that are just plainly better than others in Legacy, which leads right back to why Vintage looks the way it does.

Banned is banned obv. Yeah that's how legacy should be defined, it's eternal. No restrictions, no 1-off broken stuff like Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus or Strip Mine. Legacy shouldn't be defined by labels like in Vintage where you have Workshop vs Bazaar vs Drain vs Aggro vs Combo.

How is the dichotomy different there then in Legacy, excepting that the names and the decks are different? You have tempo versus Combo, versus Control, versus Mid-range?

[nedleeds]

This is definitely a problem I am seeing. There are cards that are just plainly better than others in Legacy, which leads right back to why Vintage looks the way it does.

Well I would have mentioned the instant who should not be named but it would drag the thread to the same place it always goes. I think the problem is obvious enough that it's not worth arguing about. I like Vintage for the reasons I stated, it just feels powerful and broken and expensive and awesome. I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.

[H]

Well I would have mentioned the instant who should not be named but it would drag the thread to the same place it always goes. I think the problem is obvious enough that it's not worth arguing about. I like Vintage for the reasons I stated, it just feels powerful and broken and expensive and awesome. I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.

Well, I am a Vintage player, first-and-foremost. I only play Legacy more now because where I happened to move to.

I think part of the "problem" we have in Legacy is that the ban list is pretty wishy-washy and the player-base reflects that. Or maybe it's the reverse. I think the reason the format gets little "official" respect now-a-days, is exactly the issue I am asking about. I don't think Wizards has a good idea what the answer to this question is actually.

I mean, when people's honest response to B&R discussions is to call everyone a "newb" because they have creatures in their deck, or a similar non-sense "argument," something is seriously wrong.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd say that Legacy format is defined by original ABUR duals, ONS+ZEN fetchlands, no restricted list and heavy emphasis on color blue.

[death]

How is the dichotomy different there then in Legacy, excepting that the names and the decks are different? You have tempo versus Combo, versus Control, versus Mid-range?

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for control, aggro and others.

[Lemnear]

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for others.

Well, you can force "Pillars" in Legacy as well: Brainstorm, Aether Vial, Chalice, Green Sun's Zenith.

Legacy for me is defined by Duals, Fetches and a banned list.

[rufus]

I tend to think that the whole '4-of-everything' approach speaks to a certain range of deck reliability and consistency.

[death]

Well, you can force "Pillars" in Legacy as well: Brainstorm, Aether Vial, Chalice, Green Sun's Zenith.

Well it's not the same
Brainstorm - the possibilities are endless
Aether Vial - Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins

Yep I stop here before it turns into another B&R discussion thread.

[H]

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for control, aggro and others.

I don't know if I am willing to really follow you through that. In Vintage there are numerous kinds of Combo. Time Vault, Tinker/Robot, Storm, Dragon, Oath, even the rarely played, but still present Helm/Leyline. Hell, even 2nd place in the 132 player MTGO Vintage event was a mono-Blue Belcher deck. I've even played against Vintage Survival before (no, not in the Snapple bracket, it's actually pretty good).

Is that less than combo in Legacy? I guess, maybe. The difference is that there are tons of different ways to make a Time Vault or Tinker deck. There are even different Storm decks, TPS, Gush, Burning Oath, etc. You have not sold me that it's markedly less though, sorry.

Legacy for me is defined by Duals, Fetches and a banned list.

That's reasonable to me. However, if the banned list is part of what defines Legacy, what should the banned list be defined by?