What should "define" the Legacy format?

[mlschuma]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

----
These are the precepts a player must embrace in order to do well in the format.

While there are obvious exceptions to all the above, but those are almost all fringe or unconventional decks that give casual Legacy the greatest amount of format diversity and appeal. Without the above, the format loses it's identity that just turn it into Modern with some extra old cards.

[btm10]

Thanks for opening this topic H, and trying to lead it in a smart way.
The question about what defines the ban list (as this ban list defines legacy) is very interesting.



1 - It's diversity and probably your most valid point. WotC would not let Legacy have a dominant deck, even if the format could maybe adapt to this deck on the long run. That explains SotF. I personally think this is WotC priority, way before power level (hello Show and Tell), to a point that I wonder if they want Legacy to have a metagame at all. Imo they want people to play a lot of different cards in this format, even if they're all backed up by brainstorm and FoW. This may be influenced by the economics of the game (sellers need volumes). This may also explain to some extend why Misstep was banned as it was killing fast strategies.

2 - Ok but it's quite narrow. It has been an argument to ban Sensei top for a while.

3 - This is highly subjective and not my interpretation at all tbh.

4 - Again highly subjective and I doubt that WotC think in these terms when it comes to banning. It's more an R&D thing, ie for new prints/mechanics. At best we could say that they monitor the number of legacy events/players and might take action if they drop.

The second aspect is narrow, but it's really the only way (other than inertia) to rationalize something like WGD staying banned. The arguments for banning Top under this criterion are reasonable, but I think they ultimately do more harm than good. As it currently stands, the fact that poor Top mechanics (both in terms of when to activate and the actual moving of the cards between looking and sitting on top the library) lead to frequent unintentional draws serves as a useful check on Top's draw-fixing power and the overall power of Miracles.

The third aspect is indeed subjective, but I think that most Legacy players agree that keeping the overall power level of Legacy positioned roughly between that of Vintage and that of Modern is important to the long-term health of the format. This sort of overlaps with the first goal, but it also includes the fact that lots of cards that are banned in Modern or Restricted in Vintage aren't banned in Legacy despite the fact that they have large effects on the metagame. Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman was probably the best example of this on the Modern side, and LED on the Vintage side.

I think you're definitely undervaluing the fourth aspect as a factor in B/R decisions. To quote from what is probably the second-largest B/R update ever:

[I]n the past three months R&D and the DCI have been reminded that Magic is not a series of balanced equations, spreadsheets of Top 8 results and data of card frequencies. Magic is a game played by human beings that want to have fun...

Now that [Trinisphere] has been floating around for a while, the Vintage crowd understands that the card does good things for the format, and bad things to the format. While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.

The game is ultimately about having fun, and while the other factors I mentioned definitely play into fun, they ultimately don't capture everything. Competitive contexts are the only places where B/R lists really matter and while winning is the principal concern of competitive players, that doesn't mean that having the competition itself be enjoyable isn't one of the WotC's goals.

[death]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

+1. Just nitpicking. ESG/SSG, Land Grant, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors belong to #2. There should be a subcategory for enablers like: Exploration, Crop Rotation, Exhume, Show and Tell etc.

Force of Will/StP falls under #7.

I wouldn't describe the mana curve as low by default. #5-#7 are the result of Legacy's vast card pool. And there's always a choice between Counterspell over Cancel.

Since we're going into details, I find one aspect missing: The full access to blue cantrips Brainstorm and Ponder in particular, both banned/restricted in Modern/Vintage but have legacy as their home. There is no question these two tremendously improve performance of otherwise mediocre decks, their ubiquity and dominance in the competitive scene is proof.

The community, in general, believes they are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

[ahg113]

The community, in general, believes they ([sic] Brainstorm & Ponder) are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

That's very, very, debatable, and in fact a dubious comment. The observation about Legacy being the safe house for all blue cantrips is very valid though.

[from Cairo]

Legacy to me is defined by the cards that aren't legal in Modern (or legal at 4x of in Vintage): Brainstorm, Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Deathrite Shaman, and Sensei's Divining Top.

[Fatal]

One category is missing:

9. Access to tier 2 tutors like Grim Tutor, Intuition, GSZ, Enlightened Tutor, where tier 1 tutors: Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mistical Tutor are banned.

Big question is: Brainstorm is Tier 1 Tutor or Tier 2 ? In Vintage it counts as Tier 1 Tutor where they are restricted same for Ponder.

Since Brainstorm can Tutor multiple cards for U on instant I would call it tier 1 so its much different to Ponder. On the other side those are cantrips they doesn't search too deep like banned tutors - its random for example:

Conditions:
4 same cards in deck none of them on hand, turn 2 brainstorm after playing fetchland turn 1 (on play), and pass we have chance to draw from brainstorm that specify card:
53 cards in deck on start, after fetch and draw 51 cards in deck we draw additional 3 more mean we have chance to draw one of them:
7,8% in first draw, 8% in second and 8,2% in third. It's not so much but there is an other factor which should be looked - even if it failed you change quality of cards of your hand. When we take to compare non-brainstorm deck we should consider that changing 3 cards in hand will find specify card much quicker then non-brainstorm deck. I'm probably too lazy to do the math here but there is a task for you for experiment:

2 Decks, 2 players seeking card which is 4-of in his deck, compare probability draw them in first 3 turns.

First deck contains:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
10 fetchlands
4 Key Card - this need to be drawn
12 Islands
24 Other cards which aren't important

Second deck contains:
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
10 fetchlands
4 Key Card
12 Island
24 Other cards which aren't important

Its difficult task to count. Good luck ;)

[dionykos]

@btm10: thanks for the follow up.

I agree with you on 1 and 2.

On 3: I think it's more a consequence of the ban list that a criteria for it. I mean WotC decides what Legacy should be, and because it's a different definition than Vintage and Modern, it leads to specific bans. Maybe I just need a specific example to be convinced. DRS isn't a good one as there was no reason to ban it according to our points 1 and 2: it was played in a lot of different decks (Tempo, Midrange, Control, even combo Elves). LED isn't dominant either. And we should be careful when comparing to Vintage banlist: we're trying to define Legacy, Vintage may have its own reasons.

On 4: you may be right, in a sense WotC need players to have fun so that they keep playing.

[dragonwisdom]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

----
These are the precepts a player must embrace in order to do well in the format.

While there are obvious exceptions to all the above, but those are almost all fringe or unconventional decks that give casual Legacy the greatest amount of format diversity and appeal. Without the above, the format loses it's identity that just turn it into Modern with some extra old cards.

This answer is correct. well written.

To put in in short

LED, brainstorm, original duals and force of will and wasteland are the cards that define legacy

[btm10]

On 3: I think it's more a consequence of the ban list that a criteria for it. I mean WotC decides what Legacy should be, and because it's a different definition than Vintage and Modern, it leads to specific bans. Maybe I just need a specific example to be convinced. DRS isn't a good one as there was no reason to ban it according to our points 1 and 2: it was played in a lot of different decks (Tempo, Midrange, Control, even combo Elves). LED isn't dominant either. And we should be careful when comparing to Vintage banlist: we're trying to define Legacy, Vintage may have its own reasons.

No problem. Thank you, too.

As for 3 - you have good points here, and maybe the only clear examples of this outlook at work are Ponder and Brainstorm. Then again, you probably don't need an explicit rule to differentiate Legacy from Vintage and Modern in order to achieve that differentiation in practice.

One category is missing:

9. Access to tier 2 tutors like Grim Tutor, Intuition, GSZ, Enlightened Tutor, where tier 1 tutors: Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mistical Tutor are banned.

Big question is: Brainstorm is Tier 1 Tutor or Tier 2 ? In Vintage it counts as Tier 1 Tutor where they are restricted same for Ponder.

This is an interesting idea, and (sort of) follows from what I was writing above. While I don't really consider Ponder and Brainstorm tutors, their function in Legacy is similar to the tutors' function in Vintage in that they form the backbone of the format's consistency tools.

[wonderPreaux]

Brainstorm does not Tutor for cards, nor does Ponder. They examine the top 3 cards of your deck, which is rarely a majority/all of your library. Further, they are not treated as teir-1 tutors in Vintage, their restriction is related to their cantripping ability, which is something the vintage b/r list has targeted before (example: the Gush engine being banned/unbanned).

[mlschuma]

+1. Just nitpicking. ESG/SSG, Land Grant, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors belong to #2. There should be a subcategory for enablers like: Exploration, Crop Rotation, Exhume, Show and Tell etc.

Force of Will/StP falls under #7.

I wouldn't describe the mana curve as low by default. #5-#7 are the result of Legacy's vast card pool. And there's always a choice between Counterspell over Cancel.

Since we're going into details, I find one aspect missing: The full access to blue cantrips Brainstorm and Ponder in particular, both banned/restricted in Modern/Vintage but have legacy as their home. There is no question these two tremendously improve performance of otherwise mediocre decks, their ubiquity and dominance in the competitive scene is proof.

The community, in general, believes they are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

Your fast mana examples are all spot on, I just didn't list every possible thing for brevity's sake.

"Powerful engine cards are allowed" could easily have its own point, but I believe my point about synergy encompasses that aspect because the engine cards (Ad Nauseum, Survival, GSZ, Counterbalance/Miracles) all require decks to be optimized to their internal synergies, often ignoring powerful cards that the decks would potentially want: Treasure Cruise in storm combo for instance.

I do believe the mana curve is low by default for the reason you listed. Legacy possesses all the cheapest options, and requires using the cheapest available options in sacrifice of some swingy abilities. Reasons powerful cards like Cryptic Command has virtually no format presence.

As pointed out by you and some other posters, there should be one more point about Cantrips/Tutors/Consistency tools. I probably didn't give them enough space but believe that they also fall under the Synergy category to a large degree.

[amalek0]

His answer is flippant, but essentially correct. Legacy provides something unique from WotC's PoV:

1) It has a deep card pool spanning the game's history, unlike Modern or Standard;

2) It excludes some of the more truly egregious power level mistakes, unlike Vintage;

3) It gives players who want to play a fast-paced, low-variance format someplace to play.

The thing that sets Legacy apart from all of Wizards' other tournament formats is that it's up to its eyeballs in cheap card advantage without also being broken beyond repair. Brainstorm is of course the poster child for this, though Ponder, Preordain, and now Treasure Cruise contribute to it. Basically, if you want to play a format where cheap, powerful cantrips allow you to execute a single game plan very well, Legacy is your format.

I would like to elaborate somewhat on his points here--I think most people are looking at the question in terms of cards, when in reality I see it as a diversity of available tools--Vintage is defined more than anything by its fast mana and powerful raw card advantage--Draw 7's and Moxen. Legacy, with those tools unavailable, is a format defined by its card pool (similar to vintage) but then differentiated from vintage by being a more consistent, card-quality centric format, rather than the raw speed and card advantage of vintage.

[H]

Sorry for lobbing this topic out there and being less than fully present, but I have a bunch on my real-life plate.

One thing that I am noticing about this discussion though is the near unanimous agreement on Vintage's definition, but nothing even close to that for Legacy. That is one of the reasons I made the topic, was because it was easy for me to conceptualize a definition for Modern and Vintage, but nearly impossible for me to formulate a clear one for Legacy.

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe you missed it, but the correct answer was on the very first page:

The formats defining feature is: no restricted list and only a banned list.
The a/b dual lands are the defining cards of legacy because they provide the base to build decks of any color, they are so special they even dragged them through extended despite the rest of revised rotating. After that they were left in legacy (1.5) and vintage (1) alone.

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

[rufus]

Brainstorm does not Tutor for cards, nor does Ponder. They examine the top 3 cards of your deck, which is rarely a majority/all of your library...

It's easy to underestimate the searching power of those cards. If you're looking for a 4-of card, are willing to chain brainstorms or ponders with 4 of each in the deck, and have a fetch for a free shuffle, your odds of finding the card are something like 1 in 3.

[wonderPreaux]

It's easy to underestimate the searching power of those cards. If you're looking for a 4-of card, are willing to chain brainstorms or ponders with 4 of each in the deck, and have a fetch for a free shuffle, your odds of finding the card are something like 1 in 3.

So if I have an undefined multiple number of cantrips, and another card to optimize their use, I will have a, likely made-up or oversimplified 1/3 chance? that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

[Lemnear]

So if I have an undefined multiple number of cantrips, and another card to optimize their use, I will have a, likely made-up or oversimplified 1/3 chance? that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

Funny. I ever refered to Ponder as a "Soft-Tutor" since the B&R explanation after it was chopped in Vintage ( which hinted at Ponder making it too easy to grab restricted bombs) as a homage to the relation between Counterspell and spell Pierce. "cheaper but less guarantee to do what you expect from it".

XD

[H]

Maybe you missed it, but the correct answer was on the very first page:

Believe me, I didn't miss that at all. I already know that most of Nedleed's ideas are in line with my own. That doesn't mean I can't attempt to foster further discussion.

[rufus]

... that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

I wrote that that the Brainstorm/Ponder was a powerful way to find cards, not that they were 'per se' a tutor. I should also like to point out that unreliable and limited tutor effects like Demonic Consultation or Infernal Tutor can still be very potent.

[tescrin]

I think the manabases describe the formats best:
-Moxes, Duals
-Duals (and basics?)
-Shocks and (Scar?)lands

EDIT: They all use fetches, so they were omitted.

The lack of restricted list and use of only a banned list is a feature, but it's only a defining feature from Vintage. Everything else about the formats revolves around the manabases (and it makes sense they should.)

There is some bit of (flame-war prompting) discussion of Legacy being the Brainstorm format; which may be part of the reason it's everywhere (aside from power level.)