Just another cruise thread - concern for a healthy meta with alot of viable options

[Humble]

Hi!

First a short introduction:
I'm pretty new to this forum, but not that new to Legacy. I've been playing Legacy in Scandinavia for about 4 years.
I've played several different decks like maverick, junk, deathntaxes, different loam decks, ur delver, bug delver, esper stoneblade (the one with lingering souls a while ago), and probably my favorite; rug with 4 stifles.

Maybe there is threads like this already, if so, let me now.

I wanted to make this thread about DTT and TC in legacy. And I must ask you not to call me someone who's just crying for bans. My concerns are meant as positive, constructive criticism for the well being of the format.

The usual answer I get when I express my concern for these cards is that you can always play fast combo to beat them.
If this is true legacy would become three things: Fast combodecks, DTT/TC driven blue decks and maybe a few chalice of the void decks and some deathandtaxes.

I just don't like that sort of meta. Before TC the meta was richer. The nonblue choices were more diverse - like loam, eva green, junk - AND the blue choices were also more diverse - different stoneblade builds, miracles etc. Blue were in a good place and nonblue had an interesting place, as a challenger of sorts to the established "blue giants". Now blue just dominates, and blue options are less diverse.

Earlier I could go to a tournament and at most there would be one other guy playing the same deck. Now people seem to be gravitating towards the same powerful cards.
Today I am seeing a meta moving in the direction of a much more concentrated, less diverse set of decks. I don't like that.

Am I right or am I wrong, and why? Do you have some other thoughts about how DTT and TC's affecting your local legacy meta?

You might take this as ramblings for a former rug player who's missing his deck, and you might be somewhat right ;) But please, don't dismiss all this as just that.
Hope we can have a real discussion about DTT and TC's impact on legacy's metagame. Obviously, I don't think it's healty. Both the nonblue and blue decks seem more alike than ever (the last 4 years=my legacy career).

(Hope this is coming out right. English is not my native tongue).

[Barook]

December 2014 meta results (note: far from finished)

The TC meta just plain bores me and I pray that something actually gets banned to shake up the meta this time because if the FRF spoilers are any indication, KTK block is just going to give blue shells more and more toys.

Imho, it went all downhill starting with Delver, and only got worse with all the crap they printed that should have never seen the light of day (e.g. Terminus, Griselbrand, TNN, etc.).

[nedleeds]

This is a bnr thread. brainstorm has double the usage rate of cruise. why are you concerned about the delve cards and not the one thats twice as prevelant and enables the delve cards?

[Chatto]

Let's face it: WotC only cartes for U-based decks, and even banning some cards won't do Legacy any good: there are too many good U-based decks, and too few powercards for the other colors... It's a shame, really

[Dice_Box]

This is a bnr thread. brainstorm has double the usage rate of cruise. why are you concerned about the delve cards and not the one thats twice as prevelant and enables the delve cards?

To answer this without getting into a shit fight with you, it's simply because it's noticeable to be buried under card advantage. It's something you can watch happen. It's the "Kill" card in many games therefore it's seen as a problem regardless of whether it is or not. Brainstorm you never "Seam" behind. No real change happens from the other side of the table. Cruise though makes its effect really noticeable and thus it's easier to blame.

[wonderPreaux]

It could also be that banning cards like Cruise/DTT, Delver, or TNN is a reasonable suggestion because they all do things outside blue's color identity whereas Brainstorm doesn't. Brainstorm has been in the format for a decade and managed to coexist with many non-blue decks in the past.

[Dice_Box]

I fail to see how Cruise or Dig don't fit into Blue's colour identity.

[mlschuma]

I fail to see how Cruise or Dig don't fit into Blue's colour identity.

The effect is blue, but the cost-reduction mechanic is decidedly black. Blue/Red is supposed to be the worst color at using the graveyard as a resource (B->G->W->U/R).

I think the railing against TC and DTT are largely based on abusing a mechanic that could have infused some life into Black or Green. TC could have costed 6GG(Harmonize) and still been on color. DTT could have easily been 6BB. They both would have been adopted into the format in completely different ways and given other colors some tools rather than making UR the default choice. I know that they had to give each clan access to the clan's mechanic, but so far Blue has managed to get the best GY stuff out of the clan that has the go-to GY colors: Green/Black.

[Humble]

@nedleeds and the brainstorm argument
I must say I agree with wonderPreaux. Brainstorm has been a staple for years and other nonblue decks has still been better represented than what the trend seems to be nowadays. And my other argument, that blue players often don't see, is that the current trend is limiting for them as well. Because the blue field was also more diverse without TC. Brainstorm/Fetchs ability to refresh a hand is great for card selection, but it can hardly be said to be as powerful as a clean draw three.

Nevertheless, not meaning to hamper the discussion, but this seems a little bit off topic. As I wanted to speak about TC and DTTs impact on different metagames and if it could be the start of a unhealthy trend.

@PMBarook
Great information! Nice, these numbers seems to correlate with my local experiences. Good to know. I hope WotC takes this into consideration.

But I guess it comes downs to the question of "What is a healthy metagame"? E.g. @nedleeds may mean that brainstorm is a card that makes the metagame unhealthy, and that's a perfectly fine statement. I can understand that.

But I'm leaning towards being ok with brainstorm in how I see a healthy metagame, but as you already know... not TC and DTT.
(I'm also in for keeping TNN, I just feel that these new delve cards is over the top - and I'm backing this up with local experiences and PMBarook's number =)

[Humble]

TC could have costed 6GG(Harmonize) .

That card would of course be awesome =)

Anyways, I'm not sure the color identity of the card is as relevant in this discussion about current metagames and where they're heading and if it's a healthy direction.

I appreciate the color discussion, from a card design point of view, but lets just face it. They printed it blue. So, back on track:
Are metas being "destroyed" by these cards? Is legacy turning into a big, streamlined game where everyone is doing almost the same thing?

[Tormod]

My meta seems pretty healthy.

I'm one of a couple guys that seem to be playing UR.
Right now I'm seeing Miracles, TES, Dnt, Deathblade, Landstill, Infect, Food Chains, Tezzerator, Dark Maverick, Elves, Show an Tell, High Tide, Jeskai Ascendency, Reanimator, Painted Stone, Jund Depth...

imho, Cruise put a fast aggro deck back on the map, a good thing. Something was needed after terminus decks...

I don't play MODO, so i can't speak to that

[wonderPreaux]

I fail to see how Cruise or Dig don't fit into Blue's colour identity.

The effect is blue, but the cost-reduction mechanic is decidedly black. Blue/Red is supposed to be the worst color at using the graveyard as a resource (B->G->W->U/R).

I think the railing against TC and DTT are largely based on abusing a mechanic that could have infused some life into Black or Green. TC could have costed 6GG(Harmonize) and still been on color. DTT could have easily been 6BB. They both would have been adopted into the format in completely different ways and given other colors some tools rather than making UR the default choice. I know that they had to give each clan access to the clan's mechanic, but so far Blue has managed to get the best GY stuff out of the clan that has the go-to GY colors: Green/Black.

Yeah, as noted, looting the GY for goodies is more of a Black or even green/red mechanic before it would ever be a blue one. Granted, set concepts like Flashback or Delve do toe the line of color coherence, and that's what leads to problems like this. You build a set around a mechanic, so then every color has to have it, even if that color has no business having such representation. Case in point, delve blue cards, or Delve...r, which violates the whole "blue shouldn't have good creatures" thing because I guess you can't leave a color out in the cold when it comes to set mechanics.

[Barook]

But I guess it comes downs to the question of "What is a healthy metagame"? E.g. @nedleeds may mean that brainstorm is a card that makes the metagame unhealthy, and that's a perfectly fine statement. I can understand that.

To me, a healthy metagame fulfills two criterias:

1) A variety of decks to covers all three archetypes and
2) it doesn't force you into playing a certain deck/shell or strategy.

1) is still fine to a certain extend, Delver garbage nonwithstanding. The problem I see in the current meta is 2) with the blue cantrip shell (with Brainstorm as its posterchild) and its 70+% meta presence. If you don't run a blue cantrip shell, you're gimping yourself, especially in bigger tournaments where consistency is king - and that is a problem. Viable deck choices left are either Elves or D&T in the grand scheme of things. While other decks can win, too, they don't seem to perform well enough or be attractive enough to be played more and put up more results.

[wonderPreaux]

To me, a healthy metagame fulfills two criterias:

1) A variety of decks to covers all three archetypes and
2) it doesn't force you into playing a certain deck/shell or strategy.

1) is still fine to a certain extend, Delver garbage nonwithstanding. The problem I see in the current meta is 2) with the blue cantrip shell (with Brainstorm as its posterchild) and its 70+% meta presence. If you don't run a blue cantrip shell, you're gimping yourself, especially in bigger tournaments where consistency is king - and that is a problem. Viable deck choices left are either Elves or D&T in the grand scheme of things. While other decks can win, too, they don't seem to perform well enough or be attractive enough to be played more and put up more results.

Literally any metagame at all pressures you to play for/against a certain deck/shell/strategy(s), thats what a metagame means: a set of expectations and assumptions about players collectively that informs your choices as a player individually. Further, the attraction of a deck has nothing to do with metagame balance, for example, the american meta has had a hard-on for Delver lists long before Treasure Cruise, and people hate on people playing Burn even though it has a consistency through functional duplicates that is hard to match.

[twndomn]

Literally any metagame at all pressures you to play for/against a certain deck/shell/strategy(s), thats what a metagame means: a set of expectations and assumptions about players collectively that informs your choices as a player individually. Further, the attraction of a deck has nothing to do with metagame balance, for example, the american meta has had a hard-on for Delver lists long before Treasure Cruise, and people hate on people playing Burn even though it has a consistency through functional duplicates that is hard to match.

You failed to mention budget reasons. You can build a complete Mono Red Burn or Manaless Dredge for about $500 or less. Once you've enjoyed some runs with Burn, you can sell your Bloodstained Mire and Goblin Guide for Scalding Tarn and save money for Volcanic. After that, you just need FoW to become UR Delver, rest of pieces are financially insignificant.

That's the primary reason why US is filled with U/R Delver, Burn, and other Delvers.

As to this thread, I hate to say it, it has no conclusion. It talks about the reminiscence of 2013 and early 2014. If you want to take action on the current state of meta, it has to be B/R discussion then. If you don't want to take action, it's just complain and whine. Where's the merit?

[TnA_Will]

As to this thread, I hate to say it, it has no conclusion. It talks about the reminiscence of 2013 and early 2014. If you want to take action on the current state of meta, it has to be B/R discussion then. If you don't want to take action, it's just complain and whine. Where's the merit?

I know the budget will be an argument against it, but I believe there are choices out there that can really help balance out the meta without anything being banned. The most obvious choice to me is loam decks such as Lands (Combo or control versions). It is very hard for the greedy blue decks to fight around Waste Lands, Loams, Bojuka Bogs, Glacial Chasm and oh here's a 20/20 I win?

[from Cairo]

TC could have costed 6GG(Harmonize) and still been on color.

You do realize that Planar Chaos was a set based on color shifting cards, right? Harmonize is a color shifted version of Concentrate. In Harmonize's case it's outside the color pie of Green on purpose. Doing this arbitrarily in a non color shift set would make less sense then Treasure Cruise does. It would be like making a Delve Damnation rather than Wrath of God, Mana Tithe or Sunlance rather than Force Spike or Lightning Bolt.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying a Delve Harmonize would have been worse for Legacy than Treasure Cruise is, simply that 'Draw 3' is not conventionally in Green's part of the color pie.

[tescrin]

I know the budget will be an argument against it, but I believe there are choices out there that can really help balance out the meta without anything being banned. The most obvious choice to me is loam decks such as Lands (Combo or control versions). It is very hard for the greedy blue decks to fight around Waste Lands, Loams, Bojuka Bogs, Glacial Chasm and oh here's a 20/20 I win?

Oops you got matched with *any combo deck.* Enjoy.

There is a reason archtypes exist and why metagames are created; they are the most efficient at dealing with what exists. You won't run into a nice huge batch of only delver; you will still hit the dedicated SneakShow, Storm, Oops, or god knows what else. Delver decks are still 30/70 or better with the decks that prey on them because they are consistent, fast, and disruptive. If you draw the wrong part of lands, Junk, or similar; you just lose. It's difficult to draw the wrong part of Delver decks and now the axis you were supposed to fight them on (CA) is at best a wash.

Further, the premier Delver deck (for budget and ease-of-use reasons) is UR Delver; which well-positioned against Lands' game plans:
-You can't waste them out
-You can't Pfire them efficiently (because Pyro tokens and Swiftspear are reasonable counters that come down earlier than Pfire)
-You can't expect to race them reasonably (They have a good T4 clock)
-They're in the color with the strongest counters to you (Blood Moon and Price of Progress)

Assuming you gank someone with a hugely expensive deck; they'll spend $5 and have a playset of brutal 1-card answers to you that still work against the majority of the meta anyway.

[TsumiBand]

You do realize that Planeshift was a set based on color shifting cards, right? Harmonize is a color shifted version of Concentrate. In Harmonize's case it's outside the color pie of Green on purpose. Doing this arbitrarily in a non color shift set would make less sense then Treasure Cruise does. It would be like making a Delve Damnation rather than Wrath of God, Mana Tithe or Sunlance rather than Force Spike or Lightning Bolt.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying a Delve Harmonize would have been worse for Legacy than Treasure Cruise is, simply that 'Draw 3' is not conventionally in Green's part of the color pie.

Green's actually been getting "plenty" of card drawing since Harmonize. It isn't all "draw 3", no, but it's been effects like Commune with the Gods and Momentous Fall, and uber-jank like Hunter's Insight and Life's Legacy -- even before that though there was a bit of a dull roar about Hystrodon getting the Curiosity effect, because "OMFG some other color gets to draw stuff now".

Oh and ah, Glimpse of Nature :/

Aaaanyway, I doubt the problem is the effect OR the color, but the effect AND the color -- most folk seem to quickly agree that Treasure Cruise could or should have at least been in Black, if not in Green. Surely a BUG Delver build would sleeve it up anyway, unless "doesn't have Awesome" is reason enough to exclude a draw-3 for one mana.

And oh puke at the "but the problem is actually brainstorm" stuff. honest to homsar, every third thread needs to be merged and locked for bringing up Brainstorm for being "the real problem". It's like how my grandmother constantly blames illegal immigrants for shit like her cake falling after she pulls it out of the oven. The problem isn't immigrants, Nona, it's your fucking expired yeast -- ah but whatever, you can't hear me anyway, your hearing aide batteries are expired too.

Sorry guys, I'm projecting again.

[Humble]

As to this thread, I hate to say it, it has no conclusion. It talks about the reminiscence of 2013 and early 2014. If you want to take action on the current state of meta, it has to be B/R discussion then. If you don't want to take action, it's just complain and whine. Where's the merit?

You might be right. But I was very clear early on that this wasn't whining. This is having a constructive and at the same this critical view on meta games, card design and bannings.

Anyways.... check out wotc reasons for banning TC in legacy today:

"Blue-Red Delver decks have been so successful at tournament play that they are hurting the diversity of the format. While other decks can have some success, the diversity is significantly less than it had been. Treasure Cruise is banned."

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-01-19

I guess they heard us =)