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Thread: Braids Stax

  1. #41
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Has anyone played with Ob Nixilis or tested this list? I sleeved it up with Contamination instead of Ob Nix. Felt threat light.

  2. #42

    Re: Braids Stax

    All I've done is do the sample hand thing. And that didn't feel too impressive for me. I too had the feeling the deck was threat light. I don't like that Contamination wants you to have a Bitterblossom or the snake dude. The deck has no manipulation to find those if you need them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Man IDK, I don't write this bullshit. We all know WotC has some primo grass in its R&D Lair.

  3. #43
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    Re: Braids Stax

    That's kind of what I thought, too. I like the basic structure of the deck, as the Angel Prison list I was running was very successful with the same core lock pieces. I want to try to make this work. Perhaps something like Tombstalker in the Ob Nix slot as a finisher?

  4. #44

    Re: Braids Stax

    Tombstalker might be better but I'm doubting how we will get enough cards in the graveyard without our opponent helping us. There might be better options, though Ob Nix doesn't seem the worst. It brings a 5/5 flyer and after 1 tick up another one. Lifeloss is relevant but you can always opt to tick him up. If your opponent has no permanents he won't be winning fast anyway ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Man IDK, I don't write this bullshit. We all know WotC has some primo grass in its R&D Lair.

  5. #45
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    Re: Braids Stax

    That's true. I figured that we run a fair amount of fetches/discard spells to aid in casting Tombstalker, but I have yet to test it. I really want to try to find a solid finisher for this deck...something similar to Baneslayer in Angel Prison.

  6. #46

    Re: Braids Stax

    Actually, Ob Nix doesn't seem too bad... it does give the opponent two cards to deal with, and pumps out an immediate blocker...

  7. #47
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Would Ob Nix Unshackled or the Fallen be worth looking into as well?

  8. #48

    Re: Braids Stax

    A mono black Braids POX/Staxx deck was my little pet deck for years.

    However I did not play so many artifacts.

    No mox diamond - don't see the point of this over Dark Ritual.
    and chalice/trini only in the sideboard. Only 1 smokestack
    no bridges or cloisters - they don't fit my gameplan which is that my opponent won't have a board presence so I don't need pillowfort card. If he has a creature make him sac it or force him to keep it back since I play more creatures myself instead of just 4 Braids.

    Dark Ritual for fast Braids(4), Liliana(4), Crucible(2) or Phyrexian Obliterator(2).

    Bloodghast(4)/Bitterblossom(2) to fuel my sacrifices.
    Gatekeeper of Malakir for more card advantage.
    Mishra's Factories(4).
    Sinkhole(4), Wasteland(4), Smallpox(1-2)
    Thoughtseize and later I played Dark Confidants simply to close the game faster.

  9. #49
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Has anybody tested a red splash for Rabblemaster and Blood Moon? Rabblemaster is good with Braids and Blood Moon can potentially replace the more fragile Contamination.

    Something like this:


    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Umezawa's Jitte

    1 Liliana of the Veil

    2 Toxic Deluge

    3 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Ophiomancer
    4 Goblin Rabblemaster

    2 Bitterblossom
    2 Blood Moon

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland
    3 Badlands
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Swamp

  10. #50

    Re: Braids Stax

    Played around a bit with the Japanese list and slightly modified it. The concept seems to inherit the usual problems of needing a combination of mana, lock piece and clock to function without any form of library manipulation, leading to inconsistency. I'm also prepared to argue that any list of this kind of deck that does not start with 4x Pack Rat is probably just build wrong. It presents a 3-turn-clock on an empty board, is hard to deal with through targeted removal even if you do not have Chalice/Trini and fuels both Braids/Contamination or anything else that requires the sacrifice of creatures/tokens

  11. #51
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Sisyphos View Post
    Played around a bit with the Japanese list and slightly modified it. The concept seems to inherit the usual problems of needing a combination of mana, lock piece and clock to function without any form of library manipulation, leading to inconsistency. I'm also prepared to argue that any list of this kind of deck that does not start with 4x Pack Rat is probably just build wrong. It presents a 3-turn-clock on an empty board, is hard to deal with through targeted removal even if you do not have Chalice/Trini and fuels both Braids/Contamination or anything else that requires the sacrifice of creatures/tokens
    Mind posting your list?

  12. #52

    Re: Braids Stax

    I think 4 contamination is necessary.

    As the previous poster mentioned you need a clock, mana and threat.

    This is the reason why mono red stompy is the most consistent as it has 16 fast mana cards, 16 lock pieces and the rest are threats.

    4 Spirit Guide
    4 Chrome Mox
    8 Sol lands

    8 Moons
    4 trinisphere
    4 chalice of the void

    The problem with other colors is that you don't have 8 blood moons (which win the game on their own by the way).

  13. #53

    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Mind posting your list?
    No I don't, but please keep in mind when considering the list, that it is in no way shape or form meant as a finished list that is ready to be taken to a big tournament. I put it together to playtest a couple of games against different decks to see how and if the concept could work and taking into considerations the changes that came to mind when seeing the original Japanese list. For example the split Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox is obviously not meant to be final, but I just wanted to see which drawback came up as being detrimental more often. Mox Diamond appears to be easier to use because you do not really want to pitch the black cards, but I did not get enough games in to come to a conclusion. Also no sideboard as the mainboard was not even done being finalized.

    3 Braids, Cabal Minion
    3 Ophiomancer
    4 Bitterblossom
    4 Pack Rat
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Mox Diamond
    2 Chrome Mox
    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    3 City of Traitors
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    4 Swamp
    5 black fetchies


    As for Contamination:
    I can see its appeal and it could be useful. If I continue working on the deck, I will try them out at some point. But the big difference between Blood Moons and Contamination is that the first is not dependent on other cards. 4 of the 8 Moon effects even double as a clock. Contamination on the other hand is only useful in conjunction with another specific card (and then you still need a third card to actually have a clock). Sure, my list runs 10 cards that can fuel Braids or Contamination, but I have my doubts that the simple equation 16 lock pieces = more consistency is true in this case. For example in Dragon Stompy an opening hand with three mana on the first turn and two Bloon Moons is fine. In a black deck an opening hand of three mana on the first turn and two Contaminations is garbage as you still need to draw a token producer and even if you do, the Contamination can only be played the turn after you play that and only if your token producer survives. Therefor as Contamination is only effectice in conjunction with another specific card, adding 4 Contaminations is not the same when talking about consistency as adding four cards that can disrupt on their own. If you play a deck without manipulation, you want your cards to work on their own. Adding additional two card combos can in a certain way even be an increase in inconsistency if this makes sense.

    I'm not very good at math, so I have no idea how the exact probabilites would turn out. But I would guess that if you calculate the percentage of games you can disrupt your opponent in the first three turns with Contamination in the deck is slightly higher than without, but the difference between the two scenarios will not be as big as between a Red Stompy list with 4 Blood Moons and a Red Stompy list with 4 Blood Moons and 4 Magus of the Moon. And after doing the math, one would have to figure out if the difference is worth cutting the cards you have to remove to fit Contaminations in.

  14. #54

    Re: Braids Stax

    Yes of course, I agree. Contamination is no way equivalent to Blood Moon. I was merely just thinking of a lock piece you could play in mono black... especially since this deck has lots of token generators. Our options are limited.

  15. #55

    Re: Braids Stax

    There are actually a lot of disruptive cards black can play if you are not solely focused on limiting mana. Chains or Nether Void are often mentioned. I'd argue that even Lili represents disruption albeit in a very different way than what you see in Dragon Stompy. On the other hand when you compare this deck to Dragon Stompy, you probably should actually consider the Wastelands as lock pieces and not as lands. One Wasteland will not totally lock out your opponent like Contamination or Blood Moon might, but in conjunction with Braids, Crucible and Trini it can turn from a mild annoyance into a hard lock pretty quickly.

  16. #56
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Here is the list I've been messing around with:

    4 Ophiomancer
    4 Braids, Cabal Minion

    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Smokestack
    2 Bottled Cloister

    2 Nether Void

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    6 Snow-Covered Swamp

    Sideboard

    3 Bitterblossom
    3 Chains of Mephistopheles
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Leyline of the Void

    After some initial testing, I made these changes:

    -2 Nether Void
    -1 Trinisphere
    -1 Smokestack

    +3 Liliana of the Veil
    +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    And in the sideboard:

    -1 Liliana of the Veil
    +1 Trinisphere

    Nether Void under-performed significantly, and unlike Trinisphere is a double-edged sword (it often hurts us nearly as much as our opponent, or in some cases more). The mana-curve was also a little high, and I had some issues dying to dorks while trying to lose my hand to activate Ensnaring Bridge (this was a serious issue in the Death and Taxes matchup considering Vial and their slew of mana denial). Liliana fixes this issue in two ways - by lowering the curve and by shrinking your hand size with her +1. She is also excellent disruption in basically every matchup. I moved a Trinisphere to the board because you don't really need duplicates of that card. The fourth can come back in against Storm and other decks that fold to it. The extra Urborg makes casting Liliana more viable and pads out the land count. Even at 25 I felt the deck was a little land-light, especially considering Mox Diamond. One big plus of playing this deck is that (postboard) the Miracles matchup is insane.
    Lord of the Chalice

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Having a listen to this at the moment and enjoying the complaining about Chalice not being fun. Well, not everyone enjoys watching their opponents masterbate with Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. Welcome to the street, enjoy the cage fight. It's been a long time coming.

  17. #57
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Apologies for the DP, but it's tournament report time. I took 2nd at my local (3-1 record) with this list:

    Braids Stax 2.0 (aka 3 Girls 1 Snake)

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    6 Snow-Covered Swamp

    4 Ophiomancer
    4 Braids, Cabal Minion

    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Smokestack
    2 Bottled Cloister

    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard

    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Chains of Mephistopheles
    3 Bitterblossom
    2 Toxic Deluge
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Trinisphere



    Round 1 was against BUG Delver. There was really little to see here, my opponent mulliganned and/or stumbled on lands in both games and I was able to lock it up quickly despite losing the die roll. Wasteland and Braids were MVP here.

    Round 2 was another BUG Delver, and I lost the die roll again. I had thought my opponent was on Miracles, so I kept a slow hand of Trinisphere, 2x Braids, and 4 lands. I quickly died to his double Delver draw. Game two I mulled to a greedy six with turn one COTV off of City of Traitors. This shuts him off for a while but I only draw one additional land over the next 12 or so turns and eventually die to Goyf beats.

    Round three was against Dredge (the one with lands). I finally win a die roll and open with turn one COTV at one, quickly followed up by double Ensnaring Bridge, a Trinisphere, and a Liliana. I sac a couple of Braids to themselves to exile Bridges. My opponent concedes as he has no maindeck answer to E Bridge. Game two I'm on the draw without Leyline, but I keep as my hand has 2x COTV, Trinisphere, Crucible, and lands including Wasteland. He Careful Studies and I respond with COTV at 0 and 1 off of Ancient Tomb. I then Wasteland him three consecutive times and play Trinisphere and Crucible which locked things up.

    Round 4 was a nail-biter against Sneaky Show (I won the roll). Game one I mull to 5 which is 4 lands and Chalice. I turn one Chalice at one off of City of Traitors, which shuts off his cantrip-heavy hand. I draw Ensnaring Bridge a couple turns later, and slam it after he plays Sneak Attack. He has no Force and concedes to the Bridge. Game two I'm able to land Bridge and some other things, but am surprised by Omniscience out of the board. My opponent casts a couple of Emrakuls and eventually cantrips into Echoing Truth to bounce my Bridge. Game three I open with turn 1 Ophiomancer which resolves. My opponent cantrips twice (off of Island and Petal) and passes. I play Cavern naming Human, Braids. He sacs his one Island on upkeep and eventually concedes to the Braids lock.

    So the deck performed quite a bit better than I expected. I was hoping to play against Miracles as that matchup is extremely favorable, but whatever. I definitely want more answers to Delver in the board, which probably means more copies of Rachet Bomb - I can't really think of a better cheap answer. The Miracles hate in the sideboard is way overboard, so I can probably cut a Bitterblossom and maybe a Chains as well to fit in more Ratchets. I may also cut Toxic Deluge as I haven't boarded it in yet. I found myself boarding Bottled Cloister out a lot since all my opponents were playing very fast decks. I assume it will be much better against slow matches so I'll probably leave it in for now. The creature combo of Ophiomancer + Braids (both uncounterable off of Cavern of Souls) is absolutely insane and is really the best part of the deck.
    Lord of the Chalice

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Having a listen to this at the moment and enjoying the complaining about Chalice not being fun. Well, not everyone enjoys watching their opponents masterbate with Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. Welcome to the street, enjoy the cage fight. It's been a long time coming.

  18. #58

    Re: Braids Stax

    I would consider:

    +3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    +1 / +2 Kormus Bell

  19. #59
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    Re: Braids Stax

    I disagree 4 tabernacles is the correct number
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  20. #60

    Re: Braids Stax

    I am loving this deck. I've played it in 3 local tournaments now, and pretty much gone 50/50 in matches. However, I really think the matches I lost were due more to sequencing mistakes and poor sideboarding strategy rather than the deck itself.

    I haven't actually had any good testing against Miracles, BUG Delver, or Show & Tell decks, which I'd need to do before making any real conclusions about the viability of the deck, of course.

    The one note I'd have is that against faster, creature-based decks, Ensnaring Bridge really ended up getting stuck in my hand rather than being useful. I lost a game against Goblins with 2 in my hand, and lost a long, grindy game against UR Delver with 3 in my hand. If those had been almost anything else, I could have pulled the win. Once I get some good testing against the higher-tier decks, I think the sideboard will get a makeover, and I might drop 1 or 2 Ensnaring Bridges from the main for either Bottled Cloisters or mainboard creature hate (Toxic Deluge? The Abyss? Batterskull?). Also, depending on how the Tier 1 blue matchups are going, it might be necessary to bring in some Chains of Mephistopheles.

    I've actually been underwhelmed with Tabernacle as well, but need more experience with it before dropping it.

    My list, for reference:

    Maindeck:
    4 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Ophiomancer

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Smokestack
    4 Mox Diamond

    7 Snow-Covered Swamp
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Sideboard:
    3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Toxic Deluce
    1 Perish
    1 Witchbane Orb
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Abyssal Persecutor

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