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Thread: Braids Stax

  1. #101

    Re: Braids Stax

    Hi owerbart,

    I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

    I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.

  2. #102
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    Re: Braids Stax

    @chalice
    I like the idea of playing a more aggressive list. The deck will have more threats which is crucial for a deck with limited card draw and card selection. However, I don't think that we should rely on cavern of souls to dictate which threats we use. Mardu strike leader looks so much worse than bitterblossom that I can't believe it is a worthwhile trade. Even if our threats are countered, they still trade one for one. This deck often has enough mana and time to cast multiple threats. Using cavern of souls also weakens the manabase to wasteland when it could otherwise be a basic swamp. The deck can lose to tempo decks if our mana is disturbed.

  3. #103

    Re: Braids Stax

    Malchar, I think you're right. The non-cavern route seems best. For those also interested, here's Ishikawa Teruhito's list that originaly inspired me to run higher mana cost threats, more creatures, and equipment. I love all the odd choices, even the ones I don't agree with:
    3 Polluted Delta / 오염된 삼각주
    4 Ancient Tomb /
    3 City of Traitors /
    2 Marsh Flats /
    1 Phyrexian Tower /
    3 Swamp / 늪
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / 야그모쓰의 무덤 우르보그
    2 Verdant Catacombs /
    4 Wasteland /
    -----
    대지 총 25 장

    4 Ophiomancer /
    3 Braids, Cabal Minion /
    -----
    생물 주문 총 7 장
    2 Toxic Deluge /
    4 Bitterblossom /
    4 Chalice of the Void /
    4 Chrome Mox /
    3 Umezawa's Jitte /
    2 Crucible of Worlds /
    2 Phyrexian Totem /
    4 Trinisphere /
    1 Liliana of the Veil /
    2 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath /
    -----
    주문 총 28 장

    사이드보드
    2 Chains of Mephistopheles /
    1 Nether Void /
    1 Engineered Plague /
    2 Ensnaring Bridge /
    2 Gate to Phyrexia /
    4 Leyline of the Void /
    1 Dismember /
    2 Liliana of the Veil /
    -----
    사이드보드 총 15 장
    right now I'm looking at
    bitterblossom
    umezawa's jitte
    ob nixilis of the black oath
    batterskull
    bloodgift demon
    bane of the living
    There's not enough room for them all, so I have some tough decisions to make. On a sidenote, I highly recommend mishra's factory. As someone who has played white stax, I often look at the differences and think, 'is there any reason we don't play this card too?' The same goes for the tabernacle at pendrel vale, although not for aggro versions of the deck obviously. You really have to play with it to understand how strong it is. Basically, they have to sac something in order to play something.
    Edit: (I don't actually own a tabernacle. what I mean is I've played magus of the tabernacle, roughly $600 to $800 cheaper.)

  4. #104
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    Re: Braids Stax

    One other card that I think is worth mentioning is tomb of urami. This is purely speculation, but if you play moxes and crucible of worlds, it can be a nice uncounterable threat. It also adds a threat to your deck without competing for spell slots.

    I'd also like to see dark ritual in more decklists. The fast mana gives you significantly better goldfishing for chalice and trinisphere turn one. It's obviously bad if you already have either of those artifacts in play, but so are moxes. I figure if you resolved a lock piece already, then you're doing pretty good regardless. This kind of plays counter to the "more creatures" idea because you're banking on the strength of the lock pieces, but it is an important debate to have.

  5. #105
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by darkgh0st View Post
    Hi owerbart,

    I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

    I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.
    Thanks a lot darkgh0st :) indeed I feel bearer of silence can be a pretty good card for this deck.

    @Chalice

    Hi! Thanks for the responses, indeed I think an aggro-er version of Braids Stax could be playable, the problem I had in testing is that even if you managed to sneak some guys in, most of the time they are going to get outclassed by things like Goyf or even Baleful Strix. I was never a fan of Crucible of worlds as more than a 2-of, as the card is pretty much dead once you already have the first one in play. However I think that Mardu Strike Leader is a good card and I'm really struggling in putting him in my lists, but I'm pretty sure it has to be excellent in yours. I always liked the transition from control->aggro post board rather than viceversa, because at least from my experience, if you can give the feeling to your opponent that G1 was just about imprisoning him and then beating him with an Ophio, he'll board some removal out. However if you whack him quickly G1 he's gonna still have removal but also board in goodies against you. I really like the idea of nekrataal too. I highly suggest you try Plague Spitter then, the card is amazing to shorten clocks, and also can kill any weenies they throw in your way. Bloodgift Demon is a card I also wanted to try in my lists, but at least in my experience, this deck is great at getting to 4 mana quickly but not so good at getting to 5.

    @Malchar I can really see your points about Cavern of Souls, but they really justify themselves everytime I have them. I think that if you are going to splash more non-human black cards it could make sense to cut some of them. Tomb of Urami is a sweet one, but then again, if you want uncounterable stuff, just play Cavern. About Dark Ritual, I completely HATE the card in these type of decks, because what these decks want is a continuous supply of accelerated mana (Sol-Lands and Moxes) and not just a one-shot thing. Also, after T1, Dark Ritual literally reads "You skipped your Draw Phase", and because we aren't playing any card selection, there's no way to filter them. I'm open to try any variation/cards in this deck, but I'm 99,99% (you never truly know) that Dark Ritual should be played in Storm decks and has no place here. Also Bitterblossom was cut because the lifeloss hurt a lot in the end, specially when you add Tombs to the equation. Mishra's Factory is still in my to-test list, I really like it and could be great to mitigate flood, and also must have good synergy with Trading Post. Tabernacle I tried but eventually didn't like the interaction between it and Ophiomancer.

    Anyways I'm ready to be proven wrong, keep rocking with Braids Stax!

  6. #106
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by chalice View Post
    4 Chrome Mox /
    Are you sure this is exactly his list? Chrome Mox makes little sense with 25 lands and 15 colored spells.
    Chalice on 1

  7. #107
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

    4 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Ophiomancer
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Smokestack
    3 Toxic Deluge
    3 Trading Post
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
    2 Peat Bog
    4 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    SB

    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Plague Spitter
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


    The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
    The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

    I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.
    Last edited by hofzge; 01-20-2016 at 07:02 AM.
    Chalice on 1

  8. #108

    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by hofzge View Post
    Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

    4 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Ophiomancer
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Smokestack
    3 Toxic Deluge
    3 Trading Post
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
    2 Peat Bog
    4 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    SB

    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Plague Spitter
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


    The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
    The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

    I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.
    What would play instead of Revoker of main?

  9. #109

    Re: Braids Stax

    Quick aside: I just read about a cute interaction with Sundial of the Infinite and Smokestack. Would work with Braids as well. Has it ever been tested? I'm assuming it not playing well with Trinisphere and Chalice would be the greatest setback. And it not doing much of anything except when you have it out with Braids or Smokestack. And useless in multiples.

    Looks like you could save City of Traitors from being sacrificed. Ditto with Mox Diamond. Combo with Phyrexian Dreadnaught? Probably way too cute.

    For the record, you'd just be milling the opponent out. End your turn with your own sacrifice trigger(s) on the stack.

  10. #110
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by hofzge View Post
    Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

    4 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Ophiomancer
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Smokestack
    3 Toxic Deluge
    3 Trading Post
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
    2 Peat Bog
    4 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    SB

    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Plague Spitter
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


    The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
    The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

    I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.
    I'm Germán Bustamante (they mispelled my last name xD)

    Really happy for your results. Revokers main can be great to resucitate beaters, and also you'll have somewhere cool to name in each round. If you are lacking a 4th Deluge, you can always go with Perish or Engineered Plague, those cards are a blast to play against Token Decks. Right now I'm working on a 4-Post build where Revokers could shine a little bit more. Against Aggro Loam, you NEED to mulligan to the Leyline. Other way you will lose. (The matchup is pretty much in our favor if you get leyline down)

    The card I'm really trying to get my hands in is Warping Wail, looks like it could be great vs so many decks. However due to the international purchasing politics here in Argentina, not a single shipment of Oath of The Gatewatch has arrived :(

  11. #111
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by caprino View Post
    What would play instead of Revoker of main?
    Bottled Cloisters usually occupy the spots that Revokers fill.

  12. #112
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.

  13. #113

    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by owerbart View Post
    Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.
    Write me decklist and side you play in this moment. Thanks

  14. #114

    Re: Braids Stax

    Hi owenbart. I was playing Eldrazi these past weeks. Not my kind of play style. Im off to completing this deck, picking up my 2nd and 3rd Crucibles. Gna pick the Helm package next. Having black compared to MUD Stax gives a lot of very useful options. I would like your updated list as well. Would you be able to update the primer? Thanks.

  15. #115
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by owerbart View Post
    Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.
    Yeah, Eldrazi's Achilles heel is basically any kind of prison deck. It auto-loses to Ensnaring Bridge and is very soft to Wastelock, Moon effects, and Smokestack.
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  16. #116
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by darkgh0st View Post
    Hi owerbart,

    I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

    I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.
    thanks man!

    Hello fellow Braidstaxers :) Sorry for the late response, I started a new job and was kinda out of time (i have a quick report however)

    I was indeed testing Bearer of Silence this month. The card seems supersweet as a way to answer creatures, specially if you already locked them out but one dude managed to sneaked through your barriers. However, the more I tested it, the more it felt that a card that wanted to battle in an angle we weren't supposed to battle (combat). However it was excellent in post-board games where you board more creatures to try to establish a softlock and steal quick wins.

    The other card I'm super-duper hyped up for is Tamiyo's Journal. 5 mana in this deck is a little bit different than 4, but the fact that it can itself feed to a stax effect or generate card advantage can be huge. However the big question is what to cut for it. Cloisters seem like the candidate, but i'd however still like the synergy they generate with bridge. Tamiyo's however has the ability that it doesn't interfere with Bridge, as we could just simply lay down the clue tokens and cash them in in the adequate moment.

    Bridge was another kind of card i wished to cut to a two-off but the arise of Eldrazi decks makes them superstars right now.

    @Caprino I'm still playing the same list as before, just with this sideboard:

    4 leyline
    4 helm
    1 perish
    2 bearer of silence
    1 plague spitter
    1 thorn of ametyst
    2 phyrexian revoker

    a quick report too:

    R1: Eldrazi

    G1 I have like the dream 7, T1 Trini, into T2 Braids, into T3 Ophio. My opponent makes the critical mistake of playing an eldrazi temple, so I already know that he's on the spaghetti monters.

    out: 4 Chalices, 4 Trinis. In: 4 Leyline, 4 Helm

    G2 isn't particularly close. I have leyline in my opener and ophiomancer stalls his army for enough time until I find helm and helm him out of the game

    R2: Miracles
    G1 he lands top and I have chalice in 1. A ophiomancer starts beating him while his counterbalance doesn't help him, so he has to setup a terminus for just 1 card. I land braids too and he starts throwing things into the chalice for mentor triggers. My first bridge gets FoWed but after a smokey joins braids and the mentor can't keep up, so my second bridge is good to go and he scoops, since i have God's Eye (MVP, creating tokens for blocking mentors) crucible, braids and smokey in 2 and his lone mentor can't keep up with it.

    out 2 crucible, 1 trini, 1 mox, in 2 revoker, spitter, ametyst

    G2 he ponder t1 and i have sweet chalice. he lands a t2 rest in peace (not a particularly good card against us, since only crucible depends on it and i usually take it out vs miracles) i have a t2 trini and t3 smokey. he lands a mentor but i just deluge it away. eventually a lone plague spitter finishes him off.

    R3: Burning Reanimator.

    G1: T1 trini is just disgusting for him. on his turn he just discards griselbrand and t2 he plays a badlands, so he gives me the free information that he's on the turbo plan. eventually he concedes to the tons of i hate i have.

    out: 2 crucible, 2 trading post, 2 trading post, 3 toxic deluge, 2 bottled cloister, +4 leyline, +4 helm, +1 thorn, +2 revoker

    G2: i mull to 6 that has leyline and a t1 chalice. i slam the leyline and he blurbs some insults so i know i have time. he burning wishes t2 for shattering spree, and he shatters my chalice and mox. great, since i have a trini in hand waiting to get deployed. a braids eats his few lands to take him back to 0 permanents, and like 6 turns later i helm him out.

    too bad it was just 3 rounds though. bearer of silence is definitely a card i wish to have in my sideboard moving on.

    due to the rise in thorns and chalices in eldrazi decks people are packing more artifact hate that hurts us, though. a pure value card that tamiyo's journal could be excellent.

    what cards would you cut to make space, though?

  17. #117
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    Re: Braids Stax

    Wouldn't Gatekeeper of Malakir just be better than Bearer if you're running Urborg? Not sure of your land configuration, but it's one less mana, albeit a bit more color intensive.

  18. #118

    Re: Braids Stax

    It's taken me about a week of fairly consistent online play to really get this deck down. Or start to, at least. The mulligan decisions can be really difficult, as well as the lines of play for land drops. Several times I've screwed myself by using Wasteland too early and then not getting to 4 mana. The rewarding early locks come fairly often enough though.

    I tried a version initially very similar to owerbart, with Trading Posts, Bottled Cloister, and Wasteland/Crucible package. I feel like we really do have a strong game against grindy matchups - eventually we will land a stax effect plus the ability to continually feed it. This made me feel like the Trading Posts were a bit unnecessary. Perhaps it is my limited experience, but I found that Wasteland/Crucible also weren't the most effective. Too many times I really hated to lose land drops, even if there has been the occasional lock just from those two pieces alone. It also does make graveyard hate more effective against us, even if it is a small percent. Again, it could be that I've only had a week or so of daily leagues.

    Here is what I'm experimenting with now. I've just switched to it from a build with Crucible/Bridge/Bitterblossom/Jitte and it is further down the Human/Jitte aggro plan.

    4 Braids, Cabal Minion
    4 Mardu Strike Leader
    4 Ophiomancer
    4 Dark Confidant

    3 Smokestack
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Bitterblossom
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Liliana of the Viel
    3 Umezawa's Jitte

    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 City of Traitors
    2 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Tomb of Urami
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    6 Swamp

    SB
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Helm of Obedience
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Trinisphere
    2 Toxic Deluge
    3 Ensnaring Bridge

    The Dark Confidant idea came from the Demon Stompy thread, and it just might be crazy enough to work. Yes, there is the potential for some pain, but it is a cheaper version of the constant card draw that something like Bottled Cloister gives, but this can be uncounterable and can carry a Jitte as well as attack in. Decks with counterspells really try a lot to kill this guy or counter him. Plus there are plenty of ways in this list to sacrifice him in case things get risky.

    I have tried Eureka Order and Sylvan Plug type decks, with stompy lock pieces, and in green there is a huge jump in deck power once you get Sylvan Library online. Heck, especially more in the Sylvan Plug area, once you add in Green Sun's Zenith and Courser, your card selection goes way up and it is an amazing compliment to the lock pieces already in play. I'm hoping that Bob will be able to provide a similar boost here. All we sometimes need is to draw a stax effect or something to repetitively sac to it.

    So far I'm satisfied with the Strike Leader, his dash is unexpected for sure. Needs more testing for him in particular.

    List like this is most likely better suited to deal with creature decks - if I find myself really struggling with Eldrazi or other decks where Bridge shines then I'll have to rethink some things. Elves at least, seem to just ignore Bridge with Rec Sage and then I die. Hoping the Jitte + 3 Deluges will help here.

    Nice to see this discussion ongoing.

  19. #119

    Re: Braids Stax

    The rest of my missing pieces are coming in the mail next week. I have an LGS invitational that Im bringing Braids Stax to. Hoping to make it.

  20. #120

    Re: Braids Stax

    square_two I saw your match against Joe! As soon as Bitterblossom was cast my eyes widened. Then to realize it was in fact this deck I was quite amused. I supported most of your decisions though I felt you could've played a bit more aggressive (the idea of your version to some degree) and ticked up the Smokestack to 3 when facing down the angels, possibly try to reset the game. Of course I was watching from Joe's perspective and you probably had good reasons.

    I love Bitterblossom but for me I think it's best as a one of main or some in the board, as I am playing a list closer to Germán's. Trading post being decay-proof and non-creature is a big plus for me in my meta. I am back to including Liliana despite the lack of synergy with Chalice. She does provide occasionally needed synergy with Bridge while buying us time or killing stuff. With her inclusion I am going to risk excluding Toxic Deluge from the main. I'm also going to try running a few fetches to compliment Crucible, also opening up the possibility of a Bayou for a Sylvan Library/Abrupt Decay of our own (or Underground Sea for Meditate!?). I'm not worried about Stifle but Port can make us look foolish sometimes and fetches help there (I see a lot of Lands/DnT). Will know more after more testing.

    4 Smokestack
    4 Ophiomancer
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere

    3 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Braids, Cabal Minion
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Trading Post

    2 Crucible of Worlds

    1 Nether Void

    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    6 Swamp
    1 Mishra's Factory
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Helm of Obedience
    1 The Abyss
    2 Toxic Deluge
    2 Engineered Plague
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Tsabo's Web

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