[SCD] Worldgorger Dragon Combo

[VeniVidiVici]

Repeating what I said in the SCG comments: thoughts on a Firestorm in the Wishboard? It's good against boards with multiple hatebears, buys you a ton of time against Elves/D&T (and sometimes against Delver), can be a discard outlet in a pinch, and likes how the deck is constructed - you often have redundant Entombs/Animates, and discarding a bunch of cards cheaply fuels Dig.

Also, as Glenn Jones pointed out, why is Oona necessary when you have the Animate Snapcaster -> Wish -> Stroke line? If you want an Animate target for when you haven't cycled through your deck (and therefore don't have something to Snapcaster for), how about Tasigur (which seems perfectly fine in the deck anyway, especially against stuff like Cage or in drawn-out control games)?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Here's what I answered to Firestorm on SCG again for completeness sake: I've considered it but I think the nature of DTT card advantage makes it rather unlikely to be worth it. Feel free to test it, though, I'm sure it'll be a blow out some of the time.

Concerning Oona (once again just citing from SCG): You want Oona for when you have Entomb but no other pay off mechanisms for infinite mana (so no Loothouse or CWish). Snapcaster can conditionally do the job by hitting a DTT or something similar and Griselbrand can likely do it if you still have enough life but both of those things are exactly that - based on certain conditions. Having something like Oona means Entomb actually leads to a definite safe kill, which seems like a reasonable way to spend a slot (especially given that hardcasting it as a control finisher is a surprisingly realistic option).

Now, that leaves Taz instead of Oona, I thought about that possibility yesterday evening, too, in fact, which in and off itself might be a sign that that's the wincon we want simply because he's so much easier to hardcast. The only thing I don't like about him as the wincon is that he isn't blue and therefore won't be useful as FoW-fodder (the deck is somewhat low on blue cards given the rate at which you spend your cantrips and Digs) but I could easily see that not being enough to make up for the ability to go 1-3 mana 4/5 instead of having to set up a six mana hardcast when necessary.

[Zombie]

You made me want to play heavily blue combo o_o

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o

...

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o




Damn you, Carsten. Damn you.

Real talk, though, unlike most of the abominations that have seen print in recent years, this deck speaks to just about everything I love about the game of Magic. Can't wait to shuffle it up.

[MaximumC]

Now, that leaves Taz instead of Oona, I thought about that possibility yesterday evening, too, in fact, which in and off itself might be a sign that that's the wincon we want simply because he's so much easier to hardcast. The only thing I don't like about him as the wincon is that he isn't blue and therefore won't be useful as FoW-fodder (the deck is somewhat low on blue cards given the rate at which you spend your cantrips and Digs) but I could easily see that not being enough to make up for the ability to go 1-3 mana 4/5 instead of having to set up a six mana hardcast when necessary.

What is the win with Taz? In Vintage, infinite mana with Taz kills with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk pretty easily. What do you kill with in Legacy?

[Zombie]

What is the win with Taz? In Vintage, infinite mana with Taz kills with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk pretty easily. What do you kill with in Legacy?

Taz mill into Wish => Stroke => You died.
You can also recur Lightning Bolts until he's dead.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

You made me want to play heavily blue combo o_o

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o

...

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o




Damn you, Carsten. Damn you.

Real talk, though, unlike most of the abominations that have seen print in recent years, this deck speaks to just about everything I love about the game of Magic. Can't wait to shuffle it up.

Buahahhaha! ;)

Taz mill into Wish => Stroke => You died.
You can also recur Lightning Bolts until he's dead.

Actually, thinking about it, the fact that Taz can win with the maindeck Bolts might mean that it's totally reasonable to run just Taz as our wincon if we conclude that the Cunning Wishes actually are a little too clunky to be worth it. I'd want two Taz at that point (that way you can easily just throw one out early as a 4/5 and not care if it gets Swordsed) but that still would leave room for the fourth Entomb in the main, at which point I'd mainly be looking to free up one more slot for the fourth Dig. Definitely something to consider, though I've been quite happy with the Wishes' flexibility so far.
/edit: actually, that would mean we can't win without a red land any more. That's pretty damning for that plan - maybe a Taz and an Oona to mill into if necessary?

[Holden1669]

I said some of this in the comments after Carsten's article but this seems like a better place for long-term discussion so to reiterate:

- I think that playing this as a control deck with a combo finish is a great idea on Carsten's part and it makes the deck a meaningful alternative to traditional reanimator.

- I have played two (count them!) matches with this deck on MTGO and I like being able to take my time and establish some control before winning. It is also awesome that we can win at instant speed with Narcomancy.

- Snapcaster Mage is a great magic card.

- I have had some opening hands where I've regretted having Lighthouse but I think it is overall a good inclusion. It makes sense in a control deck, helps to loot away fatties, and is generally a good choice for part 3 of the three card combo.

- I obviously want to play more with the deck before I make too many changes but I'm not sold on Cunning Wish. I think that two seems like a good number if it is in the deck because more would often be very clunky, but I don't like how it restricts sideboard slots because of the wishboard yet doesn't show up reliably enough for me to depend on it. I know it seems weird that I say that after having said that I don't want to draw it most of the time, but that's how I feel. I wonder if moving the Dig maindeck and eliminating the wishboard would be a good move.

- I like Lighthouse but other than that I'm not loving the red in the deck. Lightning bolt is a 1 for 1 and since I'm playing a control deck I would prefer to get a better return on my removal spells. Especially since I am seldom going to want to send Bolt at my opponent. Since I don't care about their life total I might try replacing red with white for Swords to Plowshares (still a 1 for 1 but hits more things) and maybe Supreme Verdict. I might try one or two Enlightened Tutors in a build like this as well. The other third color seems less likely, but green would be good for Abrupt Decay or even Pernicious Deed. Either way, I would obviously miss Lighthouse, however. Drownyard is not nearly as good if we're playing the control game as it does very little until you're ready to win.

I'm going to keep playing the Grixis version for a while. I think it's good and this feels like a couple of steps in the right direction. The more I think about Esper the more tempted I am, however.

[MaximumC]

This was kind of the whole thrust of my question. I still like Drownyard as a win condition, but Taz seems tailor-made for this deck as an additional win con provided we have some way of winning with him. It has to be a card that's good anyway. That's why Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are so key in Vintage for this purpose.

Some cards that win with Taz are poop on a stick before winning: Stroke, Wish, etc.

Some cards that win with Taz require you to be in a third color and do not help your Plan A in the meantime: Bolt.

So, what CAN win with Taz while helping Plan A?

1. Thought Scour works just fine, but you have to be simultaneously casting something like Regrowth to keep a card in your library at all times. This is probably an OK plan if you are using a Regrowth effect anyway.

2. Compulsive Research / Consult the Necrosages /Pilfered Plans / Wistful Thinking would work too, but it's slow and crappy as a draw engine.

3. Deep Analysis works and its not too shabby in this kind of deck to begin with.

4. Predict is an awesome card that Ive never seen actually do work, but could be good here.

5. Sapphire Charm kills next upkeep, but interacts with nothing else in the meantime.

6. Sign in Blood works pretty well, and possibly puts you in a more black shell.

[Namida]

I would go with Sapphire Charm only because I want to live the dream of phasing out a Germ token. It's also a (bad) cantrip at the very least, and I like that it doesn't draw your opponent into disruption as you're going off (even though you should actually have your entire deck in your hand at this point, you never know?)

The only other ideas my friend and I could come up with were Geth's Verdict and Ebony Charm, but I don't know that those are any better.

[VeniVidiVici]

Deep Analysis is good and has applications outside the combo (turning a spare Entomb into DA is really nice), but it doesn't work if you're going off at instant speed with Necromancy.

Honestly, even if you don't want to play Cunning Wish it might make sense to have one copy as your kill card with a Stroke or w/e in the SB, alongside whatever instants happen to be there anyway (not a deliberate Wishboard).

I know the arguments against Drownyard, but not requiring red is really big if you're going for a fast combo (it works in T1 Entomb into T2 [Drownyard], Animate where Lighthouse does not)

[LennonMarx]

Deep Analysis is good and has applications outside the combo (turning a spare Entomb into DA is really nice), but it doesn't work if you're going off at instant speed with Necromancy.

Honestly, even if you don't want to play Cunning Wish it might make sense to have one copy as your kill card with a Stroke or w/e in the SB, alongside whatever instants happen to be there anyway (not a deliberate Wishboard).

I know the arguments against Drownyard, but not requiring red is really big if you're going for a fast combo (it works in T1 Entomb into T2 [Drownyard], Animate where Lighthouse does not)

At that point isn't it just better to have the stroke in the main? It's not like the card is amazing, but I could see casting it at some point in this deck, and then it doesn't eat up a SB slot. The only other card I can think of that is in our main colors that could let us win at instant speed with Taz is Misery Charm.

[VeniVidiVici]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

[Darkenslight]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

That's a point - for an on-color burn spell, try Psionic Blast. If you're using the Tasigur kill, I'd also look into the Delve spells (Murderous Cut/Dig Through Time.)

[LennonMarx]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

You're probably right. My main complaint with Tasigur is that you can't really kill with him on MODO so actually testing him is going to be challenging. Also, and this is super minor, but Misery Charm does kill containment priest, and I would love to blow someone out with a random 15th pick from 13 years ago.

[Searys]

I was bitching about bolt but misery charm... Man that's probably the worst card you can pack, i'm testing Word of command right now and that card is absolutely awesome, maybe the best protection you can cast EOT before your big turn

[Vacrix]

Ahh I remember why I stayed off the Source for so long now.

Good luck everyone brewing.

My thoughts exactly. I can't believe nobody has mentioned the obvious Phage tranformational sideboard.


Honestly, this variation on reanimator has little to offer. Its advantage is with all the right pieces, you win the game immediately. The disadvantage is all the rest of the pieces leave you standing with your dick in your hand while your opponent does things. Griz, Iona, and friends have the advantage of inevitability...... and you can actually drop them when your opponent plays Show and Tell (common much?). That also means its harder to justify playing SnT in the sideboard. The question is.. does winning the game immediately (assuming your protection stops removal) outweigh the advantage of playing a deck that plays safer (better) creatures? Frankly, trying to play with dragon is like selling your m16 for a musket... just cause you like the bayonet. It got unbanned because its outdated tech, not because wizards wanted you to break the format. They probably put together a great list and said, ok, this isn't better than reanimator. leegoo already posted a well put together list.. and despite it being well put together.. it doesn't look like its going to be better than your standard reanimator list. Thats not to say its not playable.. it could actually be quite good.. but if you can already afford Underground Sea, Entomb, Polluted Delta, etc. don't you want to play something that has a better shot at making the most of your entry fees?

[VeniVidiVici]

WGD actually has a lot more inevitability than Griselbrand and Iona do. If you are able to get through their disruption WGD is a guaranteed kill, whereas the game will eventually progress to a point where Griselbrand/Iona/Elesh Norn/whatever won't be good enough. A fast, unmolested Griselbrand is good enough in most situations - though so is WGD - but when the game drags on and you're trying to fight through resistance it's nice to know that your kill is definitely a kill and not a painful spin of the wheel.

[death]

Honestly, this variation on reanimator has little to offer. Its advantage is with all the right pieces, you win the game immediately. The disadvantage is all the rest of the pieces leave you standing with your dick in your hand while your opponent does things. Griz, Iona, and friends have the advantage of inevitability...... and you can actually drop them when your opponent plays Show and Tell (common much?). That also means its harder to justify playing SnT in the sideboard. The question is.. does winning the game immediately (assuming your protection stops removal) outweigh the advantage of playing a deck that plays safer (better) creatures? Frankly, trying to play with dragon is like selling your m16 for a musket... just cause you like the bayonet. It got unbanned because its outdated tech, not because wizards wanted you to break the format. They probably put together a great list and said, ok, this isn't better than reanimator. leegoo already posted a well put together list.. and despite it being well put together.. it doesn't look like its going to be better than your standard reanimator list. Thats not to say its not playable.. it could actually be quite good.. but if you can already afford Underground Sea, Entomb, Polluted Delta, etc. don't you want to play something that has a better shot at making the most of your entry fees?

It's easy to see it that way. There have been new printings since the last version of this deck was played (utility lands, creatures, cantrips and tutors) so technically not outdated. You could say the same thing about Survival of the Fittest and Yawgmoth's Bargain which are still strong. Pretty much still banned. What makes Dragon infinite mana engine better than say Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact combo is that the first card printed in Magic (Animate Dead) interacts well with newer, powerful creatures namely Griselbrand. I mean.. given the power that is Animate Dead to bring life to any chosen creature, how people often think Worldgorger and Griselbrand go separately is beyond me. Did R&D screw up not thinking the two might eventually be paired together? I'd take both, because why not? Obviously the demon is OP. Assembling the combo is not an improbable task when the kill cards are 1) lands and 2) enablers or tutors that double up as win cons. Those pieces you can draw/play naturally as long as you keep making land drops, they effortlessly link up as you progress. No one is dissuading you from playing TinFins, Solidarity or Spanish Inquisition (if those are your perceptions of "cutting edge" decks). Before spewing garbage play a few games to find out what Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead can do when an opponent casts Show and Tell once a creature is in our yard or we're sandbagging Intuition/Entomb with backup or.. Griselbrand. We've heard stories how Grixis combo-control fare, it's a matter of time until a dedicated Dragon reanimator breaks open the format.

Edit: I kinda like tweaking Carsten's list, I kinda not. Like I said in the other thread, it could be difficult going up against combo decks optimized to beat control without a fast clock outside of the combo since you are slower than full-blown Reanimator.

[Vacrix]

Yes there are new printings, and new unbanned options, namely Entomb and Dig Through Time. Dragon conveinently also dodges Karakas. And yes, if you manage to get Dragon into your yard when or before your opponent plays SnT then you can get the combo going.

And yet the deck still has the same problem Reanimator has; graveyard hate. Only now you are exposing the creature to swords to plowshares.. and Animate Dead to removal. Things have also been printed since Animate Dead was good.. Qasali Pridemage (GSZ) and Abrupt Decay being good examples that see a lot of play.

Correct me if I'm wrong..

- Animate Dead ETB, and its first ability triggers
- Dragon ETB, and it's first ability triggers
- A competent opponent destroys the Animate Dead in response.
- Abrupt Decay, Pridemages ability, etc. resolves and Animate Dead's sacrifice ability triggers
- Animate Dead's sacrifice ability resolves and Dragon's ability to return everything triggers on top of the first ability to exile everything.
- Dragon's ability to return everything resolves, but nothing has yet been exiled so nothing happens
- Dragon's ability to exile everything resolves. There goes everything.

If I got this right.. then you're exposing an otherwise unexposed strategy. Reanimator tends to play Shroud dudes, Iona, and Griz. These creatures preclude disruption or provide inevitability.. and ultimately force opponents to attack the deck from the graveyard.


As far as TinFins, Solidarity, and SI go.. I don't think I need to defend the niches these decks occupy in the metagame. Go to the deck's respective thread and I'm sure each has a 'why play this?' sort of section.

The point I'm making is that Dragon Reanimator is seeking some kind of adaptive advantage within the Reanimator archetype, much like the aforementioned TinFins. So then.. does the auto-win aspect of the Dragon variation outweigh its vulnerability? I would like to mention that did I say this deck could be quite good.. I'm just not sold on it.

[LOLWut]

Vacrix, how much testing of Carsten's list have you done?