The fact is, if you're not playing red, maybe oona is slightly better.
But if you run some red cards (fire/ice and bolt come to my mind.) taz is clearly better.
Hmm I'm confused: does the second part of the ability fizzle if the first part doesn't happen? In other words, if your library is already in your graveyard, can't you just keep activating that ability until all your cards are in your nonland cards from your graveyard are in your hand, cast lightning bolt, use his ability again, cast lightning bolt?
Yes you can.
Yes. That was not the issue.
Also, with so many options and versions being floated about, each with bonuses and flaws, it seems likely that the first one of these to place will be the one the masses of mindless SCG grinders pick up. And not necessarily the one we agree upon here, whatever the logic.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Here's where I'm at with this deck. I'm not going to claim this is the best version, just the best I have been testing with so far.
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Dimir Charm
2 Cunning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
Sideboard (Still a work in progress):
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Intuition
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Hibernation
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
Some of the questionable slots:
Dark Ritual - I haven't seen this used too many lists. It's not only in here for speed, but having access to Ritual -> Necromancy after baiting a DRS activation or any other hate is huge.
Baleful Strix - This card was good in testing, but not good enough to justify all of the slots it took up. It didn't do enough on it's own to really help this deck out.
Oona, Queen of the Fae - I'm still choosing to run this over Tasguir. Taz is a great card, but it honestly convolutes the deck and requires more of an investment in deck space.
No third color - I tested a green splash, and a red splash, and came to the conclusion that this deck really wants to be two colors tops. The third color really sets you up to be disrupted very easily. I do think Desolate Lighthouse is a great card for this deck, but the fact that it's in two off colors, doesn't make it worth the splash in my opinion.
Dimir Charm - This is a good card, not great by any means, but it does three mediocre things and the versatility gives you the most bang for the deck space.
Intuition - I feel like this card got lost in the mix. It's an instant speed tutor that puts the cards exactly where you want them or gets you a redundant piece into your hand. I'm not sure I would run DTT over this.
Bicolor as my list, i don't like:
Cunning wish: My though is it costs 3, and do nothing on it's own, i rather play intuition only, and win/go the next turn :/ (it's a choice, i personally never liked cunning wish.)
Dark ritual: Personnal choice again, i doesn't run necromancy so, i doesn't need it.
7 "protections" 9 with dimir charm , only discards: Not enough for me, clearly.
Dimir charm: I like the idea, and with my taz list it's a kill (i explain after.)
Gitaxian probe: like the card, i played it but cut it after, i have not enough places...
Intuition: 100% right, better than DTT for me, it's your n5/6/7 entomb, can look for a disruption.
Now my list is more control less explosive (i run 2 dragon 1 grisel) no mana accelerator, 19 lands and, 12 "protections" (14 with charm) slots.
WIth taz and charm, i mill the opponent library to 1 card, any card able to draw, and during hiw draw phase, i cast WoC and cast the draw card (at first i destroyed his hand to 0 cards, it's just to kill the opponent at his turn.)
I runned oona at first, but i would like to try taz, the possibility of turning the deck into an aggro control (vendilion/snap/taz) the list is really, really close to an aggro/control UBR, cut the rea spells and the dragons and "voila" plus, the rea spells are not out of the beating plan, you can rea opponents creatures (it's a plan on itself after all)
I will test without the specials lands and 2 taz, maybe i will find something interesting?
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jander, I like the idea that Dig can end the dragon recursion. I get that Intuition can do the same if you arrange things that way. But you reduce your options that way. Like if I really need a mill land while I'm in a dragon loop, Intuition can not get it for me unless I already have a way out if the loop. It does feel strange to make this deck without Intuition though.
I realize that there is a lot of noise in here, but...
Surgical Extraction <--- will be an all-star in your deck.
-Ends the dragon loop in a pinch
-Gets around Emrakul recursion. With Tasigur or Snapcaster you do not even need it in your hand when you go off.
-decent generic disruption in this deck
-main deck graveyard hate and random hoser
That is, it occupies a disruption slot in the deck and makes your secondary wincon get around Emrakul.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I'm not sure I get this, but help me understand how stopping the loop to get a Mill land wins you the game? Don't you have to restart the loop anyway to win once you play the land?
I agree. Surgical Extraction is a great card with the Tasigur loop. If I were running Taz, I would MD at least one as well or keep a Cunning Wish to be able to grab one.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
So, i got a chance to tinker around with the deck a bit at a local legacy tourney. Here are my thoughts and round matchups.
First off, decklist. This was carsten kotters list that i amended and tweaked to suit my style.
4x polluted delta
4x scalding tarn
3x desolate loothouse
2x island
1x mountain
1x swamp
3x underground sea
2x volcanic island
1x badlands
3x snapcaster mage
2x worldgorger dragon
1x griselbrand
1x oona
4x brainstorm
3x lightning bolt
3x thoughtseize
3x entomb
4x ponder
4x animate dead
1x necromancy
2x cunning wish
4x force of will
3x dig through time
1x misdirection
Sb
3x young pyromancer
2x flusterstorm
2x red blast
1x slaughter pact
1x pact of negation
1x echoing truth
1x hurkyls recall
1x lightning bolt
1x stroke of genius
1x surgical extraction
1x misdirection
I cut the explosives/academy ruins package for young peezy. I want a non-graveyard way to interact with the opponent for grindy matchups. Everything else was just tweaks to fit my playstyle.
Round 1 esper3k. Mirror
Game 1
Mull to 6 on the play, keep thoughtseize animate dead ponder brainstorm force swamp.
Lead off with swamp seize. See necromancy bolt ponder and other things. Proceed to laugh. I missed land drops for the next 4 turns and scoop when he thoughtseizes me
Sb -3 bolts + 2 fluster +1 blast
G2 on the play. Thoughtseize into entomb and animate dead with perfect mana and flusterstorm +fow backup. Feels good. Opp boarded in explosives so i figured he was on karstens 75. Went back to the board game 3 so i did as well
-1 oona -1 necromancy -1 dig -1 something +3 pyromancer +1reb
Game 3 on the draw i knew it was going to be more grindy so i wanted pyromancer. I landed t2 pyromancer with forces tseize and reb in hand. Kept on being reactive while opponent spun his wheels. Won with cunning wish for bolt plus attacks.
Round 2 vs rb turbo reanimator.
G1 he flashed me dark rit and sneak attack so i knew he was on some combo. Kept a hand with lands cantrip wish and entomb/animate but no black source. Lost the roll. Got seized t1 lost entomb. He misses his land drops until the end of the game while i brick on black sources. He entombs a griselbrand and with rit animate on the stack i wish for extraction. Feels good. I finally hit black and combo.
He boards a bunch of cards so i trim a bunch of combo pieces.
-1 dragon -1 animate dead -3 bolt +3 peezy +2 flusterstorm.
G2 on the draw i keep a well rounded hand no combo pieces but lots of protection. He leads mountain tormods crypt. I attempt to force he blasts. Ooookay. He makes all his land drops while i cantrip and loothouse. He eventually crypts me to keep me off of dig. I eot loothouse a dragon. Untap pass. He exhumes. Whelp. Aparently exhume is a requirement. He gets griselbrand i get dragon and lose my stuff. Back to my turn i finally draw animate dead. No flinch attack into griselbrand. He blocks and draws a bunch. I get my stuff back and combo.
R3 vs infect
Lose the roll. My opponent has a creature heavy hand with minimal intrraction. I thoughtseize 3 times, get dragon in the yard, cantrip 3 times. He pecks me to death as i never see a bolt or animation spell
On the play game 2 i just want to combo fast.
-1 oona -1 necromancy -1 snapcaster +2 flusterstorm +1 bolt
Lead tseize into ponder. He has a disruptive hand not much pressure so i take glistener elf. This gives me enough time to animate griselbrand. Griselbrand draws me into combo with a bunch of countermagic.
G3 on the draw. I was thinking about bringing in pyromancer but decided against it. After discussing with my opponent after the match it was probably correct as he aparently boarded out blighted agent.
Keep entomb ponder bs 4 lands. Seems good. Opp goes t1 elf. He dazes my ponder. Attack for 1 poison go. He pierces my brainstorm. Whelp. At this point ive drawn nothing relevant so i just pass. He draws, attacks, invigorate bezerk. Good stuff.
Round 4 vs uwr delver. Seems like a bad matchup and opp drew like hot fire.
Lose die roll. Keep cantrips and lands. He leads delver go. Daze first cantrip. I sequence incorrectly and play bs before fetch. He dazes again. I miss my land drop and try entomb. He pierces. He finally flips delver and brainstorms into dig. He aparently dug into 2x force to go with the 2 blue cards still in his hand. Yep
-2 dragon -1 oona -1 necromancy -1 tseize
+3 pyro +2 blast
G2 on the play i mull to a sketchy 6 and lead with ponder. He has t2 mystic i let resolve then bolt. He has a follow up mystic that i force. His 3rd mystic sticks and that plus bskull bring beats. He finds rip the turn before i find dig. Yep.
So 2-2. Not the biggest sample size but it gave enough basic info on the deck. It feels like the decks isnt controlling enough, nor is it fast enough to be true combo. Im perfectly fine with the latter but the former is unacceptable. I want to use snapcaster more in this deck. Probably move the 4th bolt main, and run some number of terminates main. Also, this deck really wants jace. Its an alt wincon, plus gives you staying power. Young peezy was sweet in the board, plus with jace main it gives you a complete transformation board. Also, the mana was aweful. More duals less basics.
Heres where i would go next
3x snapcaster
1x dragon
1x griselbrand
2x jace
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x bolt
3x thought seize
3x entomb
4x animate dead
1x terminate
3x cunning wish
4x force of will
3x dig through time
4x polluted delta
4x scalding tarn
1x bloodstained mire
2x desolate lighthouse
4x underground sea
3x volcanic island
1x badlands
1x island
1x swamp
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
11/10 would Necromancy again.
Check out Gathering Magic. They just had a new list and very very short deck tech on a worldgorger deck.
I want this to work so so bad.
Thanks, will have a look after work.
you are not the only one. The combo has always been a personal Fav. I just suck at deck optimizing, and there is no Legacy scene in the remote community I live in (Only way in or out is Air Travel or a long Ski-doo trip).
Well our into to Legacy podcast has touched on, and will devote an episode eventually, on how to start up a local scene. My theory is that if you have 2 experienced players, you have 2 players who like Legacy and just don't know it yet. ;)
Also, Lee Sharpe at Wizards said they are currently working on Legacy Leagues and that they are coming. (apparently no one noticed his announcement so out podcast got to "spoil" it without realizing that's what we were doing). So soon everyone with an internet connection will have a local Legacy scene!
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