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Thread: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

  1. #21
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    Re: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    Okay, fair enough, but say your opponent's graveyard isn't neatly laid out, do you ask to see their graveyard? Do you ask what card types they have in it?
    yes you ask to see their graveyard. you have the right to do that as long as you are not doing it so often that you are causing slow play. I would always check goyf and rarely trust anything my opponent has marked. They miss cards that go to grave and sometimes he changes many times in a turn. With DRS, delve cards, and instants it changes so often that marking it rarely does any good.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

    How does this relate to using dice as reminders for things such as:

    - Putting dice on top of your library to remind you of an aether vial trigger
    - Using dice to denote extra turns (after time is called)
    - Using dice for storm count, floating mana, etc.

    I tend to not use dice for goyf because his p/t can change often and it's usually only relevant for one step of the turn (so many times I've seen people laboriously count his p/t on resolution only to have it STP'd or abrupt decayed EOT.

  3. #23
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    Re: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

    Putting something small enough that it does not obstruct your library (like a die) to remind you to take actions before you draw is perfectly acceptable. It helps limit out of order sequencing. The only restriction is that whatever it is has to be smaller than a card. On top of your library is clearly not on the battlefield and the die is not keeping track of a number. There is no question of keeping the number correct or misrepresenting anything.

    Judges often use the extra turns die if they are sitting at the table. While it is not mandatory, it may be a good way of reminding both players. You are actually obligated to announce floating mana in your mana pool every time you pass priority. That is a game rule, not a tournament rule. But, it is kept clearly outside the battlefield (sometimes in the no man's land in the center.) It is not representing any game object and represents free information which players are obligated to help each other informed about at all times.

    The problem with a goyf die is that (a) it is on a permanent (b) representing derived information (c) in a way that the game uses to depict other things. None of those problems apply here.

    Just as an additional note: If you ask your opponent what card types are in his graveyard, he doesn't have to answer and doesn't have to answer completely. So, if Bitterblossom is in the yard, he could just say Enchantment and omit Tribal. He can't lie to you, like he can about hidden information like the contents of his hand. If your opponent calls out types, they have to be there. He doesn't have to call out all or any of them.
    Last edited by Jacob; 01-28-2015 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Add info
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  4. #24

    Re: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    There is every rule in the book against putting a die on/next to goyf to represent its p/t. Try it on day 2 of a GP and count exactly how many seconds before a judge tells you to move it. High level judges agree that it is a source of confusion, highly problematic and something to be discouraged.

    You cannot put random game objects onto the battlefield willy-nilly.

    If you want to keep track of something on your notepad or with a die to the side, that is your choice. You and your opponent have no responsibility to keep each other's notes and reminders up to date, except life totals. If your opponent asks you goyf's p/t you do not have to answer.

    There are any number of things that can go wrong with it. The die could roll over to a different number. It may be pushed onto a permanent. It may no longer be accurate. It may have never been accurate to start. (Bitterblossom is a card that can mess BOTH players up.) You may need to put actual counters on goyf. You may be using dice to track tokens.

    To quote one high level judge, "Don't. Just don't."
    Thank you for this. I have only really played online, where this is not an issue. I didn't know. I also had no idea that knowing Goyf's P/T was a skill! I just figured it was in everyone's best interest to always know what it was! Sorry.

  5. #25
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    Re: Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

    So I just checked in with an L2 and we came to the following conclusion. If your opponent want's to maintain a "goyf dice" next to your card/play they are allowed to do so. You are not required to let them know to update it, or do anything else except you must maintain the game state and thus whenever Goyf deals damage or takes damage you must have it deal the correct damage and or die if it dies (this all should be no surprise to anyone).

    However let's say you get two players who neither want the Goyf Dice. It is considered outside assistance for a third party to track derivied information at Competitive REL. However, even though having a SCG member track the power is considered outside assistance, and against "Da Rules" I was told "Star City will do what it wants at it's events" "But that's against what you just said is in the rules" "Star City will do what it wants at it's events..."

    So there we go. It would be interesting if we could get two players to make this argument while on camera and see if SCG really would try to "override the rules".

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