This is my completely untested, untuned list but thoughts? There are a few potential interactions that are potentially quite cute. The Cabal Ritual/Baleful Strix/Academy Ruins dream might very well be real! I can't find space to jam Gitaxian Probes in although lands could very well be cut. The Counterspell is definitely wrong but it's a strange, personal fetish of mine to include at least one in every blue deck I run. I'm not sure if the Zealous Persection is good choice, either, as it's not pitchable to Force of Will but it can be an absolute blowout. This particular version might want Jace in the place of Zealous Persecution in the main and the Zealous Persecution in the board.
//Creatures (9)
3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
//Instants (17)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
//Sorceries (10)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
//Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Land (20)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I like this list quite a bit (it's similiar to mine). I think Zealous Persecution is a bit too situational to maindeck. But if it's great in your meta then go for it. It certainly has great synergy with Mentor and his monks. The counterspell seems rough on the mana, but hey if you don't have a problem casting it in your games then more power to ya. Can't really go wrong with jace though, and he's great in this deck as expected. As far as Gitaxian probes, I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary, but I couldn't drop it. So great with mentor, cabal therapy, and it feeds dig through time. I like running a little lighter on mana as well and that helps enable it.Originally Posted by mgrinshpon
SFM is great vs creature decks, and kind of shit vs combo decks. In those matchups some number of them get boarded out for Meddling Mages, Containment Priest, and other specific hate. That being said, I don't think SFM is needed, but in it's place I'd play some combination of sweepers and/or Planeswalkers in the main deck (generally also shit vs combo). I just don't think Dark Confidant or Snapcaster do enough to help out against the creature decks. Snapcaster could possibly work well, but Dark Confidant dies too often before it has a chance to offer card advantage (unlike SFM), and with Force of Wills and Dig Through Time's in the deck he's got a good chance and hitting you hard, which sucks when you are trying to stabilize and you are possibly also taking self inflicted damage with gitaxian probe and thoughtseize.
Just my 2 Pence:
3 Bob
3 strix
3 MM
2 SFM
2 SCM
4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Probe
3 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
4 FoW
4 STP
1 Vindicate
1 Jitte
(40)
4 Strand
4 Delta
4 Sea
4 Tundra
1 Scubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
(20)
SB:
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
2 RiP
2 Canonist
2 Clique
1 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm
Sitting here thinking about what you said, you're right. Taking so much damage from your own spells and DTT is just a better spell and triggers your win con is a lot better than not playing DTT and having Bob die before value. I think playing a Lili and a Jace is good though, to tag along as an additional win con. SFM probably throws the deck into over drive now that creature decks are taking off again. Snap as a one or two of might be a decent idea. Hold equipment as well.
Something like this would be what I would pilot at my next small tournament.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
i want the second Batterskull because Brian Braun Duin has a solid point about something happening to your one Batterskull is terrible. A second on the battlefield is a quick end game as well as absolutely destroying aggro decks. The only reason I wanted to include planeswalkers is to help attack on different axis. It helps that they trigger prowess. I didn't bother with trying to build a sideboard as I don't have a clue how the deck really operates.
Ran the following list at an unlimited proxy Legacy event tonight for the first time ever.
//Creatures (9)
3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
//Instants (16)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
//Sorceries (10)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
//Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Planeswalker(1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Land (20)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Rest in Peace
Match 1: Zombartment-esque Tokens featuring Lingering Souls, Goblin Bombardment, Blood Artist, and Young Pyromancer among others
Game 1: I never draw a single Brainstorm, Dig Through Time, or Force, get a single Stoneforge Mentor, and 1 Swords to Plowshares after close to 15 turns. Discard was pretty bad here. I lose after Blood Artist lands, I'm unable to draw anything that searches for anything, and I scoop to tokens sacrificing themselves before Batterskull's lifegain comes into play.
Game 2: +1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Disenchant, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy (likely a mistake, should have been -4 Force of Will instead and +1 Back to Basics). He brings in Wear//Tears, Humility, and Pithing Needle among other cards. After Mentor landed and made 3 tokens, Humility came down from my opponent. I quickly assemble an Academy Ruins/Nihil Spellbomb/Batterskull/Jitte/Engineered Explosives lock with 6 lands in play and prevent my opponent from ever doing anything ever again as my 1/1 Batterskulled, Jitted germ token inexorably marches forward and crushes him. I win on the last turn of time.
If there was a game 3, I think I'm heavily favorited. 0-0-1 although the opponent graciously gives me the win.
Match 2: BUG Delver
Game 1: I keep a hand of something like Cabal Therapy/Swords/Stoneforge/Land/Land/Ponder/Fetch. Once again, I don't draw any cantrips after my turn 1 Ponder and die. Maybe should mulliganed here?
Game 2: Board -1 Counterspell, +1 Back to Basics. I draw out his Stifles, Dazes, and Force of Wills in the opening turns losing a Stoneforge activation in the process. Thoughtseize also hits Abrupt Decay, two flipped Delvers get blown up by an EE, and another Abrupt Decay hits a Back to Basics. Then, I drop Mentor and followup with a Swords to Plowshares on my opponent's turn hitting his Goyf. Two turns later, I'm swinging with 4 4/4 monks and a 5/5 Mentor. Mentor absolutely dominated this game.
Game 3: Board -1 Counterspell, +1 Back to Basics. I mull to 6 and my opponent to 4. I open with a blind Cabal Therapy hitting a Brainstorm as time is called. I think I win from here. I give my opponent the win so he can get some cash.
0-0-2 (unofficially)
Match 3: Miracles
Game 1: We only play 1 game and split the maybe $5 total we're getting before talking about how to improve the deck. He's on a Myth Realized Miracles (oh yes) think taking out 2 Entreats and something else. I discard his Counterbalance and Jace in the opening turns. I try to play for EE and keep up Swords to Plowshares as his Myth Realized ticks up. He attacks, I sword, he counterspells. Game.
Game 2: I would have boarded in +1 Clique, +2 Meddling Mage, +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Disenchant?
Generally speaking, Miracles seems brutally difficult for this deck. I want to put in another Engineered Explosives in the board for the matchup taking out maybe the Disenchant? Disenchant hits Batterskull, however, and that's a cut I'm hard pressed to make.
Overall, another Divining Top seems spicy although I'm unsure where the cut is. Counterspell is a good target but it's blue and great Force fodder. The creature package as is seemed great all evening. Bizarrely, I never saw a single Dig Through Time in 7 very long, grindy matchups. The ties are from me playing glacially slow- I normally play Lands and am very slow with decks that have Brainstorm. With some faster gameplay, Esper Mentorblade seems like a real thing.
I dont understand playing SFM and MM. They both come online on turn 3, and start having impacts on turn 4. Also it seems like you want a playset of therapies with MM. Heres what I would play and be greedy. Don't mind the land base its thoughtless.
Creatures - 12
4 DRS
3 Bob
2 Snap
3 MM
Spells - 31
4 Brainstorm
4 G. Probe
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Hymm
Lands - 17
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Seas
3 Tundra
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp
I would argue that MM comes on line later than turn 3, since it's pretty terrible as a 3 drop tap out play. But that does not invalidate your other points. With DRS/Daze though I'd love to see some wastelands as well.
I was considering creating a new thread, but decided to necro this one instead. Anyway, it looks like all interest in this archetype died out when DTT was banned; that’s unfortunate.
I’ve been trying to put together a list that maximizes Monastery Mentor for a little while now, and I believe that Esper Mentor Blade is the best shell for Mentor.
I know that people have tried and failed to make Mentor work in Legacy, outside of the Miracles shell. I believe the biggest reason for that is because of Sensei’s Divining Top; a card which should be a 4-of in any Mentor list, with or without Counterbalance.
The most recent attempt that I can recall, post DTT ban, was the Chapin list with Deathrite Shaman. I dislike that list, for multiple reasons, but I won’t go into detail about that right now. However, I will explain why I think that this is the best shell.
First of all, I believe that Mentor works best in a proactive control deck, as opposed to a reactive control deck. Proactive tap-out spells like Cabal Therapy and Counterbalance work better synergistically than hold-open cards like Spell Pierce and Counterspell.
Secondly, Mentor wants a deck that is low-curve, with lots of cheap spells that can be chained together. It is a misconception that Mentor needs a large volume of cards in hand to go off. With the correct cantrip engine, it is entirely possible to “go-off” with little to no cards in hand. I don’t think the deck wants nor needs clunky cards like Painful Truths or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Thirdly, Mentor itself is a 3cc threat that ultimately requires additional mana investment. In other words, Mentor is a midrange strategy. For this reason, I believe that a stable manabase is essential. This is another reason why I believe that Mentor has failed outside of the Miracles shell. The deck ideally wants to hit 4 land drops. Playing a healthy amount of fetchlands and basics helps get to that point against decks with Wasteland. I believe that going into 4 colors with Deathrite Shaman is a trap.
Fourthly, I believe that the proactive gameplan benefits from having a large enough density of high impact threats. A powerful line like a turn one Probe + Therapy is much stronger when it is followed up with a high impact threat. Stoneforge Mystic, and to a lesser extent, Counterbalance, are high impact threats.
Without further ado, my list:
U/W/b Mentor Blade
Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
About a month ago, I took an unrefined list to my LGS and ended up going 2-1. After that experience, I tuned the list to my current 75, and went 4-0 with it the following week. I then decided to try an experimental list with 4 Predict and 2 Terminus instead of the Stoneforge package the week after that, which felt horrible (ended up 1-1-2). I swapped back to Stoneforge for the week after that, and went 4-0 again.
I realize these results are a tiny sample size, but regardless, the deck feels really strong. Strong enough to necro this thread and post about it, at any rate.
For reference, my matchups for the two 4-0’s were:
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Miracles 2-1
BUG Delver 2-1
Br Reanimator 2-1
UG Infect 2-1
Dragon Stompy 2-1
Miracles 2-1
Thanks for the thread revival! I'd say that conceptually what you are trying to achieve is exactly what I was going for almost 2 years ago (proactive control, cheap spells, stable manabase). And in that regard I'd like to believe my thread is still appropriate.
Of your match wins, the miracles wins are most impressive. Problems against miracles along with the DTT banning did drive me away from the deck. Counterbalance is obviously great in the matchup, but is there any other secret sauce you got going on that in your list that you like against miracles? I remember back then I struggled to even find good sideboard cards against them.
I'm the Miracles player that he's beaten. What usually happens is that I mess up, and I anticipate that I'll be able to compete with an untapped mentor with angels or some such, but the issue that winds up happening is that he goes cantrip crazy and forces my Angels to chump. However, I still have a very good record overall against him, as he only seems to have documented his wins rather than his losses.
The main angles of attack that he utilizes are Probe/Therapy and CounterTop. All of these things are very well equipped to dealing with how slow and durdly Miracles is these days, myself included.
I will make note that he almost exclusively wins because of my misjudgments and not necessarily because of anything regarding the matchup in any way whatsoever. It's a weird deck and I'm not 100% comfortable playing against it, unlike every other Legacy deck.
EDIT: He basically has a lot of stuff that I'm forced to interact with. If I whiff on even one moment of proper interaction, it's really dicey for me. So, to answer your question, the Counterbalance lock is actually a big deal and the deck comes at you from a lot of different angles. That is the gist of it.
The Miracles matchup is still tough, but I never felt uncomfortable against it.
Probe + Therapy is incredibly powerful against Miracles. I also believe that Stoneforge Mystic dramatically improves the matchup. Basically, I just keep jamming threats that trade 1 for 1 or better with their answers until the Miracles player is unable to find another answer, and then I close the game out.
Most of the time, I feel ahead on cards for most of the game, thanks to Stoneforge, Therapy, Counterbalance, and my lower land count and curve.
One thing to be aware of is that their Counterbalance is better against us than ours is against them. I believe the best way to approach this is to treat Counterbalance like a threat... don't spend a heavy amount of resources protecting it... instead, save your Forces to counter their Counterbalances.
At any rate, I feel like the matchup is slightly in my favor, but my friend on Miracles believes that Miracles is heavily favored, so I honestly don't know. The sample size is too small. I'll post more as I get more experience with it.
EDIT1: My friend is Min, who ninja posted above me. I don't really disagree with anything he said.
EDIT2: I didn't post about my losses like Min said. I've played against him each week that I've piloted this deck. The first week, with the untuned list, I went 1-2 against him in 3 super close games. I also lost 1-2 with the 4 Predict 2 Terminus list, but that list was awful so that loss feels less relevant. My total experience against Miracles still falls in line with my response above.
EDIT3: My ability to mostly blank their postboard plan of of 4 Pyro/Red Blasts is also a huge boon. They still bring them in, as I do have FoW and Counterbalance, but I've won several games where he has had Blasts in hand that did nothing. As far as my board plan goes, I keep it simple. Nothing dramatically changes postboard, other than bringing in answers to Entreat and Counterbalance.
FWIW I didn't actually die with blasts in hand =P I have never actually had a Blast early on when I needed it :(
Let me rephrase. There have been games where you have had Blasts (that I saw from Probe or Therapy) that did not have any impact on the game, or the impact was minimal.
Thanks for the revival of this thread. I have tested this archtype a ton in the dig era, but the banning killed the deck for me for a while. I also recently tried to make it work again. My approach is different though. I agree that the 4c deathrite versions are an abomination, but I am also not a fan of CB and top in this deck. Once you add CB/Top I have always felt like the deck becomes basically just Miracles that's better against combo, and worse against everything else. I am also not a big fan of stoneforge here. I do like that it can be a 2 drop threat. But if mystic dies, the equipment is near useless since there are no other little creatures to pick it up.
In my experience the miracles matchup is about 45-55 in miracles favor. This archtype attacks at some awkward angles, but their CB is very strong and hard to interact with
Like I said my approach is much different, more like esper stoneblade, but cut the stonblade part for mentors. This is list I have been playing lately on Cockatrice and am planning to paly at the SCG Worcester 5k after I scrub out of the main event while playing miracles:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
//20 lands
1 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
1 Esper Charm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
//Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Perish
I disagree with your assessment of Stoneforge. If Mystic dies, the Batterskull is still a card, whether you play another Mystic to be able to cheat it out, Brainstorm it away, or hardcast it.
I've won games against Miracles where I equip a Jitte to a Stoneforge after my opponent has killed several other threats, including Wear//Tear on my Batterskull, and Jitte closes the game out. 8 creatures may seem creature light for equips on paper, but it works out just fine in practice. I actually won one of my Infect games due to equipping Jitte to a monk token.
If nothing else, I think Stoneforge is much better than Gurmag, especially against Miracles.
As far as CB/Top is concerned, I can respect not wanting to maindeck CB, but it definitely takes away a powerful tool in a great deal of matchups, from Lands to Burn to Storm to you name it. However, Top is what makes the deck. You're running a suboptimal Mentor deck if it doesn't include 4 Top. Of course, once you're on 4 Top, you should have some amount of CB in the 75.
I also disagree that CB/Top makes this deck a worse Miracles deck. CB/Top is stronger in Miracles, for sure, but it still does alot if work here. Regardless, the deck differs dramatically from Miracles. I have yet to feel like this deck is a strictly worse deck. There are certainly matchups that are worse for me than they are for Miracles, but the reverse is true as well.
I also dislike JTMS right now with all of the Blasts floating around, but that's another discussion altogether.
At any rate, if you get a chance, try out my build before you dismiss it completely.
Scrubbed put at my LGS tonight, 1-3. My matchups:
Burn 1-2
Miracles 0-2
Br Reanimator 1-2
Turbo Depths 2-1
The Turbo Depths matchup was not actually part of the event (I had a bye, and played against someone who had never played the deck before).
It just didn't feel like my night this week. Of the 8 sanctioned games I played tonight, I had to mulligan 6 out of 8 of them. I had to mulligan to 5 twice. The hands were either all lands or no lands, it felt bad. I also made some misplays, but live and learn.
In the Miracles matchup, in game 1 I mulled to a mediocre 6, he had a turn 2 Counterbalance that I didn't have an answer for, and a turn 3 Top. I put up a good fight, slipped several threats through, but he had removal for them.
G2 I kept a really shaky hand that panned out. I feel like I lost this one due to misplays, as I had an early CounterTop lock, but I spent a FoW on a Counterbalance which he played as bait (it wasn't relevant at the time), and he followed up with a Jace I didn't have an answer for. I flooded super hard, hitting a land drop every turn for the first 8 turns, and shuffled a billion times with Top only to find more lands and other crap. I didn't find my first creature until turn 7 or 8. I feel like the key to winning this matchup is to keep jamming threats... not seeing a creature until turn 8 is almost certainly a loss.
However, he did have a Council's Judgement that I didn't have an answer for, assembled his own CounterTop, and had Entreat on top to deal with my Vindicate. Ultimately, I believe this happened as a result of burning my FoW on his Counterbalance earlier.
Oh well, a bad beat night is a bad beat night. I still believe this deck is extremely strong, and will continue to play with it and hopefully get better at it.
Last edited by Hanni; 03-31-2017 at 04:47 AM.
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