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Thread: UWR Monastery Mentor

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Here's the list I've been playing with. It's flowing smoothly but no real results other than that. Extremely fun and can easily overrun people.


    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Monastery Swiftspear
    4x Young Pyromancer
    4x Monastery Mentor

    4x Gitaxian Probe
    4x Lightning Bolt
    3x Path to Exile
    4x Serum Visions
    4x Sleight of Hand
    1x Vapor Snag
    2x Repeal
    2x Spell Snare

    20 lands
    4x Scalding Tarn
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Steam Vents
    2x Hallowed fountain
    1x Sacred Foundry
    4x Island
    1x Plains
    1x Mountain

    Sideboard (not refined):
    3x Pithing Needle
    3x Grafdigger's Cage
    4x Negate
    2x Counterflux
    3x Blood Moon

    Easily lives through pyroclasms by just hanging on to a token generator in preparation for it. Seems extremely well positioned against Abzan's 1 for 1s if you don't play token generators without a spell ready. Cavern of Souls would work for all the humans here, but I don't know if that's something worth trying what with all the spells we want to be slamming.
    YP and Mentor are control creatures imo.

    Swiftsprear and Delver are aggro.

    I don't think it is great to put them all in the same deck. Overall the deck seems to be more aggro, and hardly any control elements so Mentor seems slow and not worth it.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    YP and Mentor are control creatures imo.

    Swiftsprear and Delver are aggro.

    I don't think it is great to put them all in the same deck. Overall the deck seems to be more aggro, and hardly any control elements so Mentor seems slow and not worth it.
    Thanks for the advice, it looks like you spent a long time thinking about it before posting. In all my years of playing magic I never knew which creatures should go in which deck, but if Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor have the label of "Control creatures" then it's super easy and I really shouldn't have put them in a deck that has the ability to be aggressive.

    And people wonder why no one comes to this site for Modern.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    I like the list and admittedly don't keep up with modern all that much, but why no Remand and/or Mana Leak? It seems like either would be more flexible than Spell Snare in the main deck, especially only as a 2-of. If it's a CMC thing, maybe Spell Pierce is the way to go? I just feel like if you're going to run only 2 counters they should be as flexible as possible since drawing them "on time" is going to be fairly rare.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    I like the list and admittedly don't keep up with modern all that much, but why no Remand and/or Mana Leak? It seems like either would be more flexible than Spell Snare in the main deck, especially only as a 2-of. If it's a CMC thing, maybe Spell Pierce is the way to go? I just feel like if you're going to run only 2 counters they should be as flexible as possible since drawing them "on time" is going to be fairly rare.
    I've tried both but with Prowess you don't want to leave up 2 mana since you're attacking and pumping every turn that you can, usually leaving up 1 mana for Bolt/Path. Spell Pierce is definitely one I'll be trying out more, but having all-out aggro as a plan game 1 and side into counterspells against matchups that it would help has been great so far. I don't think 4x Negate, 2x Counterflux is the way to go on that front, Spell Pierce may fit in there nicely.

    You're exactly right that 2 counterspells seems strange, and I'll only draw them sparingly, but that's where Snares get the nod over anything else since a Pierce late game does arguably nothing, whereas Snare will always kill what it intends to. I like Snare over pierce additionally because of Repeal + Vapor Snag being able to "chain" into a (crappy) 2 card kill spell for a Tarmogoyf or out of control Scooze. I like that it helps when I lose the die roll as well.

    There's definitely some room for tweaking on the non-cantrip spells. I'd like to fit in some Lightning Helix since the burn matchup isn't great (Manabase damage issues there).

    I've been doing some MTGO testing but not a daily yet. It was pretty awesome beating a boggles deck due to Repeal on Runed Halo during a critical attack, and being able to block down a 9/7 first strike trampler with double totem armor with only mentor tokens three turns in a row. If you play against a deck that doesn't have board sweepers they just can't handle the amount of chump blocking and token generating we can do.

    Seriously guys, Monastery Mentor is broken as any creature printed in the last 10 years, if you don't trust me then just try him out. Getting Prowess triggers off of sideboard Stony Silence and Grafdigger's Cages is the best feeling in Magic.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    I like the concept, but I don't care for swiftspear much in this list. Given that all of your creatures want you to play spells, the more of them you run the weaker each of your creatures becomes. Of the four creatures you run, I feel like its the weakest.

    I would definitely play path #4. It's just the most efficient creature answer, so it plays well with your token generators, but also I think splinter twin is going to be picked up more. Having more ways to stop twin is never a bad thing.

    You might be well served for a cryptic command or two. They are expensive for sure, but on the token generation plan being able to get an alpha-strike in seems very worthwhile.

    I'm not sure about the inclusion of repeal, can you elaborate on that choice more? I feel like Remand is overall a much more useful card, even if it's not triggering prowess on your turn. Even playing your own 1 cmc -> remand -> replay is a viable line if you need to just kill them.

    I think you really want a 5th burn spell, probably lightning helix to improve the burn MU.
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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Valtrix View Post
    I like the concept, but I don't care for swiftspear much in this list. Given that all of your creatures want you to play spells, the more of them you run the weaker each of your creatures becomes. Of the four creatures you run, I feel like its the weakest.
    Swiftspear is definitely the worst creature in the deck, but 12 threats just wasn't enough to put pressure on an opponent who can deal with one of them. I like how she's much better than a delver mid-late game while being pretty awesome turn 1 as well. Having 16 threats means that the opponent usually can't save removal for Monastery Mentor and the token he'll always generate if you play him with 4 mana. The bonus with Swiftspear is that she'll almost always do 3 damage, which is good for a card, but in doubles they are actually formidable clocks.

    I would definitely play path #4. It's just the most efficient creature answer, so it plays well with your token generators, but also I think splinter twin is going to be picked up more. Having more ways to stop twin is never a bad thing.
    This might be right in the end. I don't have 4 because it's the worst removal tempo-wise (this deck can easily kill on turn 4, and that's not a pulled-out-of-the-air number), allows the opponent to not be punished as hard by a fetch/dual manabase, and some decks don't interact well with Path (boggles, storm, and Scapeshift). Bounce spells are in here to protect my threats from removal, and provide additional "free" prowess on the kill turn, but I'll get into that below.

    You might be well served for a cryptic command or two. They are expensive for sure, but on the token generation plan being able to get an alpha-strike in seems very worthwhile.
    Also possible, but a little less likely in my opinion. The reason I don't like it initially is that it makes Sleight of Hand + Serum Visions scry abilities a little less useful, since normally I just keep cantrips and ditch the lands, whereas this one will force me to take lands, watering out the prowess a bit.

    The other reason is that, and I mean this, no deck has been able to keep up with the creatures produced. Alpha striking happens through opponents creatures, because in modern the number of removal spells is inversely proportional to the number of creatures a deck runs. YP + MM generate so many creatures that unchecked, you can overrun an opponent who doesn't have enough removal for them. If the opponent has a lot of removal, enough that you only get 1 token out of each YP/MM before it dies, it is also extremely likely they won't have that many creatures. Decks that play a lot of creatures don't play board wipes. It's kind of funny how that balance makes this deck so much better.

    I out-creatured an elves deck yesterday. They only had Beast Within to kill 1 Monastery Mentor, so I was able to kill them on turn 5 through 6 creatures(!).

    I'm not sure about the inclusion of repeal, can you elaborate on that choice more?
    It's in there for a few reasons, having a critical mass of draw spells really helps the deck not run out of steam. On the kill turn it pumps your prowess guys for :U: if you have a token generator and draws a card, but more importantly it interacts with all the decks that Path doesn't. Bouncing a Boggles enchantment at an opportune moment, bouncing Amulet of Vigor in response to Summer Bloom, or even in the late game protecting one of your guys from a removal. It costs a little more to do a little extra, but if you have Monastery Mentor it can win you the game by bouncing one of your non-haste tokens to prowess + draw. I've commonly used it as a way to bounce creatures as well, since drawing a card is so good in this deck I like it more than Vapor Snag.

    Vapor Snag is here instead of path #4 since it also protects a MM/YP from removal. I could see bumping Vapor Snag up, but there are a lot of options with non-cantrip spells right now.
    I feel like Remand is overall a much more useful card, even if it's not triggering prowess on your turn. Even playing your own 1 cmc -> remand -> replay is a viable line if you need to just kill them.
    Remand requires you to leave open a lot of mana that you normally don't want to. I had them in here but with all of the prowess (and YP's pseudo prowess), you really want to be cantripping all turn. It's easy enough to do with Sleight + Serum Visions, and most importantly it grows your team on the attack. Remand just doesn't do enough, and although you can remand your own stuff, it wasn't worth it.

    I think you really want a 5th burn spell, probably lightning helix to improve the burn MU.
    Maybe, but I have so much removal that it's hard to really need more. 12 Cantrips that dig for what you need usually produces enough to deal with threats you care about, and often you can leave some creatures on the battlefield and not really care about them. A Loxodon Smiter isn't scary at all if you have 5 1/1s from YP. Attack into that elephant all day without really caring, you'll always be able to replace the token.

    I'm convinced the Burn matchup could only really be saved by something like 4x Leyline of Sanctity and a few extra life gain cards in the SB. Possibly even some Spellskites. I doubt 1 Helix will improve the win percentage enough to really use it, and Burn is the only deck I'd want to pay an extra mana in for the life. I do want to fit them in, though.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    *snip* ...Snare will always kill what it intends to. */snip*
    I suppose this begs the question - what are you intending to kill with a mid-game Snare? Pyroclasm? I can't see a lone Goyf being an issue with all of the tokens running around, and a Remand or Leak out of your opponent doesn't seem particularly relevant since you've already got your prowess trigger out of the spell getting countered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    There's definitely some room for tweaking on the non-cantrip spells. I'd like to fit in some Lightning Helix since the burn matchup isn't great (Manabase damage issues there).
    I was sort of surprised not to see Helix in here too. Maybe over the Repeals and stick them in the board instead?

    Speaking of the board, seems to me like you'd want some number of Wear / Tear or similar for random Ghostly Prison players as that card ruins your day fairly well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Seriously guys, Monastery Mentor is broken as any creature printed in the last 10 years, if you don't trust me then just try him out. Getting Prowess triggers off of sideboard Stony Silence and Grafdigger's Cages is the best feeling in Magic.
    I totally agree with this - I made a Shu Yun deck for Tiny Leaders and Mentor is easily the best card in the deck. Your opponent has to answer it immediately or it gets out of hand really, really fast.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    I suppose this begs the question - what are you intending to kill with a mid-game Snare? Pyroclasm? I can't see a lone Goyf being an issue with all of the tokens running around, and a Remand or Leak out of your opponent doesn't seem particularly relevant since you've already got your prowess trigger out of the spell getting countered.
    Runed halo, pyromancers ascension, pyroclasm/ sylvan scrying, and cranial plating are the main ones, but every deck also has other things you wouldn't mind countering if the opportunity arises.



    I was sort of surprised not to see Helix in here too. Maybe over the Repeals and stick them in the board instead?
    The thing is repeal hits so many things and gives us an option to stop things classic removal doesn't, while also costing one on your MM kill turn. No other card fits that slot.

    Wear tear is good. I've actually put in stony silence in the sideboard but may switch the entire sideboard around still.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I'm convinced the Burn matchup could only really be saved by something like 4x Leyline of Sanctity and a few extra life gain cards in the SB. Possibly even some Spellskites. I doubt 1 Helix will improve the win percentage enough to really use it, and Burn is the only deck I'd want to pay an extra mana in for the life. I do want to fit them in, though.
    Leyline of course has the advantage of being conditionally free, but I feel like Worship is the way to go; you have enough draw to find it rather than mulligan for it, and it bails you out against more decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Wear tear is good. I've actually put in stony silence in the sideboard but may switch the entire sideboard around still.
    If you are looking at the sideboard, is there a reason not to play Relic of Progenitus as your graveyard hate over Grafdigger's Cage?

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by cherub_daemon View Post
    Leyline of course has the advantage of being conditionally free, but I feel like Worship is the way to go; you have enough draw to find it rather than mulligan for it, and it bails you out against more decks.If you are looking at the sideboard, is there a reason not to play Relic of Progenitus as your graveyard hate over Grafdigger's Cage?
    I like Leyline better against storm and heavy discard decks, Worship isn't bad but doesn't necessarily win against Burn with their Searing Bond and the like.

    Relic sounds good, I'm not sure if I like it better but cantripping is pretty good. I'm just wary of needing 1 mana open at all times to pop it. Grafdiggers is just a big NOPE to graveyard decks.

    I'm trying out Helixes now, I like the idea and a lot of burn decks are going around so I'll test out 3. Dropped lands to 19.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    I've been thinking about Mentor in a UWR tempo shell since the card was spoiled. This looks really cool. Interesting thoughts on Repeal, especially in the Bloom matchup.

    Have you tried Azorius Charm at all? Seems like a good mix of things this deck wants to do.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Repeal was an all star today against Merfolk's Aether Vial. Granted they were land screwed, but that's the kind of hand you keep with a Vial.

    Azorius charm is something I haven't thought about much. Utility is nice, though costing 2 may be a problem. I like the lifelink mode, though, it would actually help a lot against burn. I may try a couple out to see how they mesh with the rest of the deck.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    How useful is electrolyze? It seems to match up against lingering souls decently. Three mana seems like a lot but oftentimes repeal will bounce a 2 drop (goyf mostly). Cantrip spells that trigger your yp/mentors and also do some tempo work seem strong.

    Would staggershock trigger prowess and token generation twice? Seems ok.
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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    A few changes recently from testing. I've dropped the deck down to 18 lands, which is manageable with 12 cantrips and 8 1-drop creatures, but makes the cantrips more important landwise (but it really streamlines things later game). Lightning helix is definitely worth playing, and I've moved up to 4x. I don't like it on paper with such a low number of lands and high number of cantrips per turn, but you really do want the life gain in here. Also, it's really easy to kill 4/5 goyf + rhino + tasigurs with 1 prowess token and a bolt effect.

    I tried Azorius Charm and it almost is good enough, but not quite. It too frequently would only gain 3-4 life where Lightning Helix always does 3 and usually kills something, and 50% of the time I would pay 2 to draw 1. I tried Remands again and once again am unimpressed. We do need to make a few concessions to playing Prowess, one of which is to have things to do on our own turn. Having sideboard counterspells seems to be good enough in that respect.

    Electrolyze might be worth it but it does cost a lot for what it does. Lingering souls is big right now but mostly that deck is easy enough to beat. Drawing a card with damage would be great, though. Hard to say right now, but after cutting down the land a bit I think it probably isn't going to make the cut.

    Relic of Progenitus > Grafdigger's Cage, drawing a card is great but actually removing a graveyard seems more useful since Tarmogoyf + Tasigur are things now.

    Scattershock is worse than other 3 drops I'd use in it's place. Cute cards are only better than good cards when everything is going well for you.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    I really like this deck and the way it is being built/changed.
    Would you mind keeping the OP updated with the latest version you;re testing, or the one you're mos happy with at the moment?
    In my head I'd be trying now the one with:
    18 Lands
    16 Dudes
    7-8 Burn
    12 Cantrip
    6-7 Repeal - Vapor Snag - Path.
    Unfortunately don't have any real testing to help with.
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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Sure thing, updated.

    Still a few things I want to be testing in here. Snapcaster Mage is a big one, since he has amazing utility with all our lands, but costs a lot manawise. Sideboard is also becoming more important as the deck takes form. I'll update the OP with lists whenever I get new ones.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    After a lot more testing, I'm cutting 2 Young Pyromancers for 2 Snapcaster Mages, her blue brother.

    YP is a great card, and I don't want them out of the deck, but the real star over and over again is Prowess. 1/1's from YP are great at stalling until MM gets out, or at applying pressure against the really grindy attrition decks, but Snapcaster can play both of those roles as well as having additional utility later on for Prowess triggering.

    YP is better when you don't have a threat already, but SCM is better when you do, or when you need removal instead of threats. I also can't cut out instants or sorceries as Delver is a big part of this deck's damage output.

    The rest of the Maindeck is feeling really awesome, actually, and you really always want to see a 1 drop creature in your hand. The kill turn is frequently 5, which includes removing threats/blockers before then. Goldfish is an easy turn 4, with nuts draws giving you turn 3s. Having access to 14 removal feels wonderful, while only 3 Paths are dead against non-creature decks. Repeal and Vapor Snag more often than not point at my own creatures to save them or give me lethal with Prowess.

    4x Lightning Helix is pushing the burn matchup into winnable territory, depending on which setup you're playing against, with better results coming from those that play more creatures in opposed to spells.

    I'm actually blown away at how well this deck handles GBW rhino/lingering souls. If they don't have a kill spell up immediately for your MM it's a blowout, and if they do just make sure you never play him without holding priority and a spell ready. My kill count on Rhinos with Monk tokens + burn spell is up to 5, and goyfs rarely get bigger than 4/5 in time.

    Splinter Twin is also a breeze, we just have too much removal and too much pressure for their gameplan to work. Both Goyf version and traditional UR I'm undefeated against.

    The problem decks are Tokens, which isn't a solidified deck in the metagame but BGW and WB varieties get really tough if they can get pump spells on their stuff (Intangible Virtue makes it hard to trade). A runaway Monastery Mentor can easily runaway with the game, though.

    Lastly, UWR control is pretty horrible. Any deck that runs Electrolyze and White against us actually will have enough removal to plow through Monastery Mentor + YP, and Supreme Verdict can really, really hurt. I've beaten them with decent starting pressure and burn to the dome late game, but it's not great. I'm actually considering Mark of Asylum sideboard but don't think this matchup is common enough to warrant it.

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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Lastly, UWR control is pretty horrible. Any deck that runs Electrolyze and White against us actually will have enough removal to plow through Monastery Mentor + YP, and Supreme Verdict can really, really hurt. I've beaten them with decent starting pressure and burn to the dome late game, but it's not great. I'm actually considering Mark of Asylum sideboard but don't think this matchup is common enough to warrant it.
    How about trying a couple of Boros Charm in the board? It saves your dudes from Electrolize and,unlike Mark, from Veredict as well. Also, the 4 dmg option will definitely be useful from time to time.
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    Re: UWR Monastery Mentor

    what do you think about removing the 4 swiftspear to play 4 snapcaster mages and 4 young pyromancers?
    Less pressure, but more tokens and more lategame possibilities?
    Perhaps the mana curve would not be great in the end....

    I'm gonna try the deck, just because YP is my favourite creature, and i liked UR Delver Pyro style of play before Treasure cruise / monestary swiftspear era.

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