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Thread: Magic Origins

  1. #41
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    Is there some flavor reason why they get exiled and return to the battlefield instead of just flipped? I haven't paid any attention to the story elements since back when the players were supposed to be Planeswalkers...
    I like the flavor of her just popping out of the plane and showing back up, but I think the reality of the situation is that if the card just flipped, it's a planeswalker card with zero loyalty counters on it and it immediately goes into your graveyard.

  2. #42
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    That being said, 'walkers as creatures does present very interesting possibilities. Though there's a good chance they'll all be lackluster (crosses fingers for playable red 'walker) and not even worth GSZing.
    I didn't think about GSZ. That's an interesting possibility, but then again, it's Nissa, so I don't expect much from it since her flavor is Elf Hitler.

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    So is Abrupt Decay. Garruk Relentless already had that problem with his flipped version.

  3. #43
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    it's Nissa
    And the ship was lost with all hands on deck.

  4. #44
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    I like the flavor of her just popping out of the plane and showing back up, but I think the reality of the situation is that if the card just flipped, it's a planeswalker card with zero loyalty counters on it and it immediately goes into your graveyard.
    "Transform lily, rebellious teenager and put X loyalty counters on her" would work just fine.

  5. #45
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    "Transform lily, rebellious teenager and put X loyalty counters on her" would work just fine.
    It would work, but would it be a better design? I feel like it's awkward to have to print text on the card that is basically only there to make the card work correctly. There are any number of different flavor justifications you could give for the exile part, and blinking your card can actually have an effect on the game like saving it from removal, compared to loyalty counter text that would basically just say "You're a planeswalker card, now act like one."

  6. #46
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Double-faced cards... =( There goes all my hype down the drain.
    Current Legacy Decks: Elves, 12Post, Eldrazi Stompy, Burn, Reanimator, Death&Taxes

  7. #47
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    It would work, but would it be a better design? I feel like it's awkward to have to print text on the card that is basically only there to make the card work correctly. There are any number of different flavor justifications you could give for the exile part, and blinking your card can actually have an effect on the game like saving it from removal, compared to loyalty counter text that would basically just say "You're a planeswalker card, now act like one."
    I was wondering if there was a flavor reason for it because invoking the Exile zone to transform a flip card seems heavy-handed.

  8. #48
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Interesting non-functional change - this card refers to itself as 'her'. Compared to, like, Norin the Wary which says "it" in reference to itself.

    Is this just the first time I've noticed cards using gender pronouns in reference to themselves. Heh.

    Anyway, this is a flavor win IMHO and these cards have the benefit of being subject to whatever creature synergy they inherit - GSZ, Cavern of Souls, etc. Triggering them consistently may be another story, will have to see all the cards to know for sure, but already they are seated well in t erms of easy adoption.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    I was wondering if there was a flavor reason for it because invoking the Exile zone to transform a flip card seems heavy-handed.
    She is experiencing her first planes walk? leaving that world temporarily and coming back. So from other people's perspectives she is blinking out of existence and coming back

  10. #50

    Re: Magic Origins

    I am expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers.

    It should not be possible to have Liliana on the same side of the battlefield as a creature and her planeswalker side. I understand that you can't change the rules for other cases where the cards are completely separate like Karn Silver Golem and Karn Liberated or the new Liliana and LoTV or Teferi and Teferi planeswalker but when we are talking about the same card 1 side legendary creature and other side planeswalker than the legendary/planeswalker rules should be clarified to not allow both states at the same time.

  11. #51
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    I am expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers.

    It should not be possible to have Liliana on the same side of the battlefield as a creature and her planeswalker side. I understand that you can't change the rules for other cases where the cards are completely separate like Karn Silver Golem and Karn Liberated or the new Liliana and LoTV or Teferi and Teferi planeswalker but when we are talking about the same card 1 side legendary creature and other side planeswalker than the legendary/planeswalker rules should be clarified to not allow both states at the same time.
    I don't expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers. It can be difficult to flip the Walker-Creatures into the real Walker (and that is the goal!) Liliana can trigger herself with multiple "Legends", so it is a way to use more copies from the card and still profit. Note that she can't reanimate herself. So if you cast Liliana as a creature (and a 2/3 Lifelink for 3 isn't so powerfull!) and manage to flip her to a Planeswalker, i don't see why you can't profit from the possibility to cast a later drawn "Lili-Creature" and have both on the field.

    For me it feels ok, to gain access to a medicore creature, try to flip it to a hopfully useful walker and than still (as a upside to the older walkers) be able to use additional drawn copies on the battlefield (and not hold them back in hand). Liliana's discard itself seems also much better, if you can use both parts simultaneously on the battlefield.

    Otherwise i don't see the value in playing the new Liliana (and we talk only about a few decks) over the established one.
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  12. #52

    Re: Magic Origins

    Just to clarify: What happens if my opponent wraths my lilli + another guy?
    “Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

  13. #53

    Re: Magic Origins

    @HdH_Cthulhu, nothing happens. Lilliana has to trigger, but since she is also dead she can't do it.

    Greetings,
    Kathal

  14. #54

    Re: Magic Origins

    I think it blinks to make the transition cleaner, and avoid confusion when she has auras on her, is in the middle of combat, is being targeted by a spell, is affected by effects with memory, has +1/+1 counters, etc.

    I like it.

  15. #55

    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathal View Post
    @HdH_Cthulhu, nothing happens. Lilliana has to trigger, but since she is also dead she can't do it.

    Greetings,
    Kathal
    I am 99.99% sure that you are wrong. This is not how Grim Haruspex, Blood Artist, Glissa or the Necromancer work. When you sweep the board they still see that and trigger. So Liliana definitely still triggers. In fact if you have 4 creatures plus Liliana she should put 4 triggers on the stack

    The questions are:

    1. Can the trigger resolve since it basically targets Liliana herself?
    I would think yes, Liliana would be exiled instead of going to the graveyard and then ETB on her planeswalker side along with a zombie token.

    2. If the trigger goes 4 times on the stack what happens?
    1st trigger brings back Liliana as PW plus a 2/2, 2nd trigger can't return her on her planeswalker side anymore? Do you still get the tokens from the other triggers?

    Theoretically if the opponent sweeps the board you should get a Liliana PW plus X tokens. Translation: Do NOT sweep the board against this Liliana or you are toast, unless you use Terminus or Anger of the gods.

  16. #56
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    I am 99.99% sure that you are wrong. This is not how Grim Haruspex, Blood Artist, Glissa or the Necromancer work. When you sweep the board they still see that and trigger. So Liliana definitely still triggers. In fact if you have 4 creatures plus Liliana she should put 4 triggers on the stack

    The questions are:

    1. Can the trigger resolve since it basically targets Liliana herself?
    I would think yes, Liliana would be exiled instead of going to the graveyard and then ETB on her planeswalker side along with a zombie token.

    2. If the trigger goes 4 times on the stack what happens?
    1st trigger brings back Liliana as PW plus a 2/2, 2nd trigger can't return her on her planeswalker side anymore? Do you still get the tokens from the other triggers?

    Theoretically if the opponent sweeps the board you should get a Liliana PW plus X tokens. Translation: Do NOT sweep the board against this Liliana or you are toast, unless you use Terminus or Anger of the gods.
    I played Glissa for a very long time in standard.
    When you wrath with glissa on the battlfield, Every creature goes to the graveyard including Glissa, but she sees other creatures going to the graveyard and triggers.
    However, the trigger doesn't go on the stack before the wrath resolution, so glissa is in the graveyard.
    That would be the same for Liliana. She is definitely in the graveyard when her trigger is put on the stack.

    So the question would be more something like this: does the trigger resolves partially? (meaning it puts a 2/2 zombie on the battlefield). As the 2/2 is only put when you exile lilian and put her on the battlefield, that won't happen.

  17. #57
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    Re: Magic Origins

    Everything goes to the grave, but when State based actions are checked they check last based information.

    Lily will only trigger once, when she flips she makes a token, she only flips once. It will not matter if four creatures die, you only get that one token.

    Also wiping the board should flip her, that's why her text states "Another non token creature dies".
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  18. #58

    Re: Magic Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Everything goes to the grave, but when State based actions are checked they check last based information.

    Lily will only trigger once, when she flips she makes a token, she only flips once. It will not matter if four creatures die, you only get that one token.

    Also wiping the board should flip her, that's why her text states "Another non token creature dies".
    Why would she only trigger once? Even if the other triggers do not resolve anymore she should still trigger multiple times.
    That would mean if you have 4 grizzly bears and lily and your opponent casts Wrath of God, he could then Stifle the trigger.

    When you have Blood Artist and 4 Grizzly Bears and your opponent casts Wrath he loses 5 life, not 1. In my understanding he could not stifle to prevent the full 5 life loss. He could only stifle to prevent 1 life from my understanding.

  19. #59
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    Re: Magic Origins

    I mean the token trigger not the Transform trigger and it will only happen once because the token triggers on the resolution of the Transformation.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  20. #60
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    Re: Magic Origins

    It seems that it isn't the problem that Liliana will trigger, the problem is - what happens with liliana, while the trigger is on the stack?!

    If you sweep the board with Liliana and other dudes, the "whenever another creature dies" effect will trigger - but it is connected with "exile Liliana" BUT if Liliana gets already killed, she can't be exiled if her trigger resolves, because she already dies (or is exiled = swords to plowshards).

    So it seems, the trigger will resolves, but checks that Liliana can't be exiled anymore and the effect will fail (no token, no multiple token, no planeswalker).

    Right?
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