[Primer] R/G Lands

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Would definitely practice the miracles practice (duuuh), and have a plan for sanctum prelate going in.

How do people feel about siding Sphere of Resistance in against Miracles?

It's good, makes our mana denial a lot more effective and really slows mentor down.

[barcode]

How do people feel about siding Sphere of Resistance in against Miracles?

ONLY if they're the Ponder or Mentor version, which have fewer lands. Otherwise it's not good enough because they can filter their draws with Top to hit land drops.

[Chatto]

It's good, makes our mana denial a lot more effective and really slows mentor down.

ONLY if they're the Ponder or Mentor version, which have fewer lands. Otherwise it's not good enough because they can filter their draws with Top to hit land drops.

+1 in this combination. I would like to add that it makes our Gamble uncounterable with Boseiju (minor detail). In general, I think that SoR is not worth to board in.

[heckler]

I don't like bringing in spheres. I used to do it a bit but I would say half the time it favors the opponent as well. I generally board in Krosan, tracker, boseiju and sometimes pithing needles; I bring out bog, some pfires, 2-3 gamble/rotation and manabonds.

I've been running ghost quarter as a four of instead of port on MTGO and I must say it has drastically improved my miracles matches. Also of note, you can do things to bog their game down enough to make them clock out fairly easily unless they have fast draws; tabernacle against mentor versions, a couple mazes against entreat. Also, ghost quarter really messes with their whole top/counterbalance mechanic. Plenty of times I bait a spell and pop a quarter to ace a plains and they don't search to counter. once you kill off their 2 plains and 3-4 tundra, the only real win conditions are jace and snapcaster.

honestly, I haven't really come across too many matches where I prefer port over quarter, and plenty of times it turns out to be a strip mine. Quarter also starts wasteland chains in order to copy depths with 1 less land. Even if you won't possibly eat all their basic lands in a game, you can sometimes remove one color of mana from their deck.

[Dice_Box]

Nic Fit, DnT, Burn, Merfolk and sometimes Miracles are the decks mostly likely to punish you for that build. Personally I like it. I played Stax last night with 4 Waste 3 Quarter and Crucible. When they work they do a lot of work.

[heckler]

nic fit is a pretty positive matchup and I would say that my miracles matchups have been going a lot more smoothly with GQ in place of port.


In all seriousness, what does nic fit prey on? I've seen the deck piloted many times against many people and can't figure out what it's good matchups are.

[Djehuti]

honestly, I haven't really come across too many matches where I prefer port over quarter

Death and Taxes. Found this out the hard way this weekend playing the GQ build. You lose the ability to turn off white mana before the end of their turn so you become dependent on repeatedly jamming the combo until you run them out of plows. Thats especially awkward with a sanctum prelate in play :/

[Whitefaces]

Thanks for the input on SoR vs Miracles guys, so in if they're playing a low to the ground build, out if they're not seems to be the consensus? Almost all builds are 'low to the ground' now.

Death and Taxes. Found this out the hard way this weekend playing the GQ build. You lose the ability to turn off white mana before the end of their turn so you become dependent on repeatedly jamming the combo until you run them out of plows. Thats especially awkward with a sanctum prelate in play :/

Is repeatedly GQing their plains too slow? They probably played quite differently in the face of no Port too, if you have them they'd leave up X+1 white sources, where X is the number of port effects you have.

[Chatto]

Three Ports and two GQ's... That's where I'm thinking about. I've been playing one GQ for as long as I'm on this deck (maybe one time dropping it in favor of ??), two won't be a big change. I like Port too much.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

GQ doesn't really start denying mana from them until you've gotten several activations, so they can still play their dudes (and pay for them if you have tabernacle). Port actually slows them down, and if you're ahead, they have to leave up additional resources so they don't simply get 20/20d to death.

[Djehuti]

Is repeatedly GQing their plains too slow? They probably played quite differently in the face of no Port too, if you have them they'd leave up X+1 white sources, where X is the number of port effects you have.

Lets say the average number of plains in a DnT list is 10. Even with exploration, loam and 2 GQs, it would take you 5 turns to run them out of plains. Alot can happen in 5 turns of legacy. To tie up 2 of your mana every turn and not advance your board state while having zero impact on your opponent's board seems like a poor choice unless you have nothing better to do. The only plus I've found for having GQ in the DnT matchup is the ability to get karakas and opposing ports off the table instead of just tapping them.

[lavafrogg]

Lets say the average number of plains in a DnT list is 10. Even with exploration, loam and 2 GQs, it would take you 5 turns to run them out of plains. Alot can happen in 5 turns of legacy. To tie up 2 of your mana every turn and not advance your board state while having zero impact on your opponent's board seems like a poor choice unless you have nothing better to do. The only plus I've found for having GQ in the DnT matchup is the ability to get karakas and opposing ports off the table instead of just tapping them.

I think GQ against DnT is fine as your win condition after you have already stabilized the board... which means it is a nice option but is win more at the end of the day. I typically feel ahead of DnT as long as I can establish a mana base, if I need to run Marit into swords a few times so be it. Having several answers to prelate main board would be critical if DnT is super popular in a meta but they have no real way to respond to a board sweep backed by recurring removal after sideboarding.

I have brought in needle several times to turn off any vial tricks that they play to some success but not as strong as a sweeper especially kozilek's return.

It really feels like a flex slot in the main board should be rotated around depending on your meta, a Bog for graveyard decks, Karakas for Show and Tell, Boseju for Miracles and Barbarian Ring for DnT...

any more silver bullet lands?

[DudeItsCorey]

It really feels like a flex slot in the main board should be rotated around depending on your meta, a Bog for graveyard decks, Karakas for Show and Tell, Boseju for Miracles and Barbarian Ring for DnT...

any more silver bullet lands?

I'm not sure how good barbarian ring is against D&T. RIP makes that card very awkward. In play testing it was good maybe three times out of 20-ish post board games. You usually have to sandbag it so it doesn't get wasteland and then getting thresh hold post krosan grip on a rip really have to have the stars align. The only time I found it to be great was when rip wasn't in play and I crop rotated in response to prelate/vial activation (which is easy to know because they sorcery speed prelate vials). And I had to already have threshold. Too many factors in play. I'm trying anarchy, because I have come across situations that I get a 2nd prelate on 3 to lock out Krosan Grip from killing the revoker on my Molten Vortex (if there is only 1 revoker out). To be honest I haven't drawn it enough or tested throughly to see if it's worthwhile.

[lavafrogg]

I'm not sure how good barbarian ring is against D&T. RIP makes that card very awkward. In play testing it was good maybe three times out of 20-ish post board games. You usually have to sandbag it so it doesn't get wasteland and then getting thresh hold post krosan grip on a rip really have to have the stars align. The only time I found it to be great was when rip wasn't in play and I crop rotated in response to prelate/vial activation (which is easy to know because they sorcery speed prelate vials). And I had to already have threshold. Too many factors in play. I'm trying anarchy, because I have come across situations that I get a 2nd prelate on 3 to lock out Krosan Grip from killing the revoker on my Molten Vortex (if there is only 1 revoker out). To be honest I haven't drawn it enough or tested throughly to see if it's worthwhile.

Do you have another single card that fits with the rest of the deck so strongly and varies our CC's for prelate? It is tutor able with both of our tutors and requirable with loam after it kills the first prelate. Also, I am strictly talking preboard games where RiP shouldn't be an issue, my original question is what you should change to the list to make sure you won game one against miracles but is has since expanded to include DnT.

What would you change to the list to give yourself the best chance to beat Miracles preboard?

Eldrazi?
DnT?
Delver?

I only ask these questions because I am going to start playing on a fairly regular basis and the thought of how you would change a deckles for a local meta is running through my mind.

[Layalouhamesh]

Is repeatedly GQing their plains too slow?

Another thing to mention is that GQ works quite bad on Flagstones of Trokair to cut off white, since it will turn into 2 lands with GQ

[Chatto]

Another thing to mention is that GQ works quite bad on Flagstones of Trokair to cut off white, since it will turn into 2 lands with GQ

I haven't seen Flagstone in ages, but a fair point.

[Ingo]

Do you have another single card that fits with the rest of the deck so strongly and varies our CC's for prelate?

The latest list from David Long with 3Vortex/2Fire and manabond made me think of Keldon Megaliths. Its very conditional, but unlike B-Ring it's independant of the graveyard (RIP) and both Vortex and manabond help you getting hellbent. It only deals 1 damage, but as this list focuses more on vortices, it kills revokers to keep Vortex active. Don't think it's necessary (or good enough) though, as there's already a mix in Vortices and Fires as removal.

If you're looking for postboard options, I like the suggestion of Anarchy, as it sweeps like Kozilek's return and destroys RIP's too. I think Helm of Obedience would be an interesting inclusion as well because D&T cant counter it, some/many lists run 3 RIPS, and because it brings tremendous joy to kill someone through his own RIP.

[Djehuti]

The latest list from David Long with 3Vortex/2Fire and manabond made me think of Keldon Megaliths. Its very conditional, but unlike B-Ring it's independant of the graveyard (RIP) and both Vortex and manabond help you getting hellbent. It only deals 1 damage, but as this list focuses more on vortices, it kills revokers to keep Vortex active. Don't think it's necessary (or good enough) though, as there's already a mix in Vortices and Fires as removal.

If you're looking for postboard options, I like the suggestion of Anarchy, as it sweeps like Kozilek's return and destroys RIP's too. I think Helm of Obedience would be an interesting inclusion as well because D&T cant counter it, some/many lists run 3 RIPS, and because it brings tremendous joy to kill someone through his own RIP.

If you were to run megaliths, you'd also have another red source to activate vortex which can be relevant. I'd worry about prelate locking spells in your hand, to which manabond would be the only out to get megaliths online again. That being said, I think i'll take the card for a spin and see how it feels. I just wish it didn't come in tapped :/

[lavafrogg]

Megaliths seems really bad.

I don't see how one damage a turn while you are hellbent does anything. If you are loaming and manabonding every turn then you are winning anyways so the care is strictly win-more .

Blighted Gorge seems like a better way to worry about Prelate if the threshold requirement of Barbarian Ring bothers you.

[Ingo]

Megaliths seems really bad.

If you are loaming and manabonding every turn then you are winning anyways so the care is strictly win-more .

The question isn't if it seems bad in a vacuum, but how useful it is under problematic circumstances. Neither Bring, Gorge nor Megaliths is required when you're loaming away without resistance, but when your opponent has cut off your engine (Prelate, RIP, Counterbalance).

I mentioned Megaliths in the context of 3 Vortices, who don't care about prelate (but are shut down by Revoker). Also, the D&T matchup isn't only about Prelate but also about the 2/3 postboard RIP's that neuter our recursive removal. And while Bring and Gorge are much better at shooting a Prelate, Megaliths is the only DamageLand that keeps trading off creatures under RIP.
The same applies to Counterbalance, where Megaliths is the only land guaranteed of being repeatedly activated. With 2 Megaliths in play (stagecopy), Miracles should be cut of from all wincons (Mentor, Snapcaster, Clique, Jace) apart from Entreat, while being on a slow but inadvertible clock (at least game 1, as there will probably be postboard bloodmoons). There's a certain charm in this independance of the graveyard or Life from the Loam, but as I already said before, it is probably not good enough.