[Primer] R/G Lands

[Sibelius]

yeah, omni is quite a terrible matchup. even more so than standard sneak and show decks. sometimes they durdle and you have to just hope for a game or 2 of that in order to pull ahead and back it up with some teeth.

on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.

as a side note, would slaughter games even be remotely playable in a g/r/b version of the deck? 4cc is a lot but for games like miracles or games where the opponent durdles with a combo, it just might be able to absolutely break a stalemate. seems like a high opportunity cost though and is not resistant to being dredged over.

If Omni tell decks are coming back then you MUST play Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard or even Trinispheres. It stops all of their spells being free so you still have a chance even if they resolve a Show and tell into Omniscience. The trick for this game is to not do anything until they play Show and tell. Keep Sphere and Grip in hand and let them put your Sphere into play uncounterably. Then just blow up their Omni with your grip. Rishadan Port is also A LOT better here then Ghost quarter. I know 4 Chalice and 4 GQ are the tech used in Daryl Ayers latest list but if you are going into an Omni or SNS meta then go back to playing Sphere and Port. They are just as good vs Miracles as GQ and Chalice but you need to play in a slightly different way.
Slaughter Games is too slow vs combo and doesn't do anything vs Miracles.
Miracles players should be taking out Terminus as resolving that vs us is pointless due to their main plan post board, being either a backbreaking enchantment like Bloodmoon or B2B, From the Ashes (not that good imo) or tempo-ing us with Mentors.

Lands is a deck where practice with it is much much more important than changing sb slots all the time. Its why all the lists that do well are run by the same people and they have their own takes on what is the correct build because of how they play with the deck.

Sib

[Ingo]

Slaughter Games ... doesn't do anything vs Miracles.

With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.

[.Ix]

If Omni tell decks are coming back then you MUST play Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard or even Trinispheres. It stops all of their spells being free so you still have a chance even if they resolve a Show and tell into Omniscience. The trick for this game is to not do anything until they play Show and tell. Keep Sphere and Grip in hand and let them put your Sphere into play uncounterably. Then just blow up their Omni with your grip. Rishadan Port is also A LOT better here then Ghost quarter.

That is still a plan that won't win us many games by virtue of us needing both Sphere and Grip. Game 1 is still almost free for them. I do agree that Port is better than GQ in this matchup, even though Lands with Ports is still not favored by any stretch of imagination.

I know 4 Chalice and 4 GQ are the tech used in Daryl Ayers latest list but if you are going into an Omni or SNS meta then go back to playing Sphere and Port. They are just as good vs Miracles as GQ and Chalice but you need to play in a slightly different way.
Slaughter Games is too slow vs combo and doesn't do anything vs Miracles.

Chalice and GQ are much better against miracles than Sphere and Port from my testing, especially since the GQ plan works in Game 1. Slaughter Games is not that bad against Combo. I've Slaughtered an Omnitell deck once when I was playing Elves. It doesn't seem that unlikely.

on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.

That's ok! If they have to find a W/T to kill a Chalice just to Plow Tracker or Marit Lage, it will be a lot easier for us. It also gives us more time to harass their white sources until they are completely unable to remove our threats.

[Alexeezay]

In my experience, it isn't that bad against Omni postboard. I had worse results versus straight SneakShow. If you got a Sphere, backed up by pressure in Tracker or just a fast combo you're in a good spot. One time I had 2 Grips in hand with Karakas out, but he just played 2 Omniscience (played the 2nd with the first one) LOL. Tracker is good pressure, double sphere is insane, Grip can ruin their day, if you play Primeval Titan or Choke that's also good (played both as a 2-off versus OmniTell in the past alongside 5 Spheres and he had no fun)

[Crimhead]

As they usually side out Terminus, chalice1 also means they die to the first Marit Lage (if they don't block with Clique / bounce with Jace).

Is this normal? Miracles pilots in my area do not usually side out Terminus against me. :(
Still I always bring in CotV!

With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.

Forces a shuffle too!

[Sibelius]

With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.

Waste landing anyone when playing Lands is the opposite of a huge effort.
It is what the deck is built to do.
As is Porting.
When playing vs miracles you need to be sitting down and preparing to run the 'remove all of their white sources plan'. Which is frankly incredibly easy when you run Boseiju main. Which everyone should now be doing. It makes the Miracles pre-board a good MU. The GQ version is better at this preboard because if they deal with Loam with CB you can still draw into a GQ for their plains. But both versions are playing Boseiju to crush the miracles MU. THAT is the important card.

Slaughter Games.
It is too slow for true combo matchups, and stories of 'this one time I once used it against Storm' etc don't prove that it is good. It costs 4 mana for gods sake. If you get to 4 mana vs combo then you should be winning anyway.

You want your SB cards to either diversify your attack plan or directly deal with their plan vs you. Guess what Miracles plan post board is? Blood Moon, Back To Basics, From the Ashes, hell even Tsabos Web, Ensnaring Bridge and Ruination see play. We already have the cards to deal with Plow. Its called Chalice and killing their white sources. Who gives a flying monkeys if they have no Plows if all we have are Mountains, or no lands at all? How are we winning that game?
Slaughter Games costs 4. At what point in the game do we get to take all of their Plows? Before we make a Token? That seems a little slow considering their hate gets online then. And we can't make the token before using SG because they will just plow it. We have to play the ultra long game.

Even more simply.
Post board the game sets up like this.
We can win any long game because of Boseiju and the life gain from having Marit Lage Plowed. We can eternally make tokens until they run out of answers.
Miracles therefore have to deal with Boseiju and our lands that make a 20/20. They do this with 3CMC enchantments and 4CMC sorceries. They also have a plan to deal with our recursion. Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace 2CMC enchantment.
Knowing all this makes our Sideboard plan blindingly obvious.
1. Have a plan in case they Surgical our Loam - Tracker is this plan
2. Stop them getting Red mana or to 3 or 4 mana in a main phase - Port and Spheres do this. Wasteland helps as well.
3. Bring in something to kill enchantments and artifacts, Miracles play a lot of these - Krosan Grip.

(4. Play around Surgical if you can - Tranquil Thicket)

How exactly does Slaughter Games fit into how the game sets up post board?

I hope this helps everyone with Sideboarding vs Miracles. Remember they get to board as well, we don't just have to beat their game 1 plan anymore.

Sib

[Ingo]

Waste landing anyone when playing Lands is the opposite of a huge effort.
It is what the deck is built to do.
As is Porting.
When playing vs miracles you need to be sitting down and preparing to run the 'remove all of their white sources plan'. Which is frankly incredibly easy when you run Boseiju main. Which everyone should now be doing. It makes the Miracles pre-board a good MU. The GQ version is better at this preboard because if they deal with Loam with CB you can still draw into a GQ for their plains. But both versions are playing Boseiju to crush the miracles MU. THAT is the important card.

Slaughter Games.
It is too slow for true combo matchups, and stories of 'this one time I once used it against Storm' etc don't prove that it is good. It costs 4 mana for gods sake. If you get to 4 mana vs combo then you should be winning anyway.

You want your SB cards to either diversify your attack plan or directly deal with their plan vs you. Guess what Miracles plan post board is? Blood Moon, Back To Basics, From the Ashes, hell even Tsabos Web, Ensnaring Bridge and Ruination see play. We already have the cards to deal with Plow. Its called Chalice and killing their white sources. Who gives a flying monkeys if they have no Plows if all we have are Mountains, or no lands at all? How are we winning that game?
Slaughter Games costs 4. At what point in the game do we get to take all of their Plows? Before we make a Token? That seems a little slow considering their hate gets online then. And we can't make the token before using SG because they will just plow it. We have to play the ultra long game.

Even more simply.
Post board the game sets up like this.
We can win any long game because of Boseiju and the life gain from having Marit Lage Plowed. We can eternally make tokens until they run out of answers.
Miracles therefore have to deal with Boseiju and our lands that make a 20/20. They do this with 3CMC enchantments and 4CMC sorceries. They also have a plan to deal with our recursion. Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace 2CMC enchantment.
Knowing all this makes our Sideboard plan blindingly obvious.
1. Have a plan in case they Surgical our Loam - Tracker is this plan
2. Stop them getting Red mana or to 3 or 4 mana in a main phase - Port and Spheres do this. Wasteland helps as well.
3. Bring in something to kill enchantments and artifacts, Miracles play a lot of these - Krosan Grip.

(4. Play around Surgical if you can - Tranquil Thicket)

How exactly does Slaughter Games fit into how the game sets up post board?

I hope this helps everyone with Sideboarding vs Miracles. Remember they get to board as well, we don't just have to beat their game 1 plan anymore.

Sib

I think you're a good player, but I have no clue what's itching you here. Maybe it's just monday for you.

Miracles will play the list of hate you've posted regardless of any sideboard card you play. It's why you play Krosan Grip or Abrupt Decay, and nobody is suggesting to cut down on them. The point is, regardless of any gameplan, wether it might be chalices, slaughtergames, needles, porting/quartering/wasting, boseiju, bloodmoon will ruin your day, and you will have to remove it or you'll loose, wether you would play SGames or not. In short, when Bloodmoon is on the table, with whatever sideboard cards I'm playing, the only flying monkey I really care about is Grip/Decay. Essentially this has nothing to do with playing a card like SGames besides them.

As for chalice, sure it is a great way to deal with swords, but I sure had the feeling you're advocating spheres instead.

And no we cannot make eternally tokens, even with Boseiju. The reason is Surgical extraction, and when it extracts Dark Depths the game is seriously franchised, and the card is usually played over RIP because its just better with Snapcaster. This is also why Chalice is so good against Miracles. A card like SGames can also take all swords, regardless of Bloodmoon (mox) or extraction or counterbalance or Wear/Tear, and ensure the first token to be lethal (just watch cliqueblock/Jacebounce). That doesn't invalidate all other gameplans you've described as it's not all in on this one card, but it sure is on hell of an effect for a single card if you draw into it. It's also not like the Miracles matchup is decided before turn 4. And ofcourse SGames is too slow for other matchups, but this was never stated otherwise.

I am not here advocating the use of SGames against the broader meta, but I definitely think you can play it with good results against Miracles for reasons previously stated. I also think that we should never discredit cards for not being on the stock list. Almost all renoveling of the deck has been initiated by players like David Long, whether it's playing Trini's in the Omnitell-period, experimenting with Darklands, playing Quarters instead of ports and vortices instead of Fires. You are right to promote knowledge and experience with the same cards, but it's also true that settling in your ways isn't always the best move in a changing meta. Not a single card of any deck is eternally set in stone (well, maybe except loam then).

[jhport12]

There are many reasons that I personally find Slaughter Games a poor SB card for Lands against Miracles. Not "less than ideal" and not "an edge-case", but just outright bad.

Even if there was only one card in Miracles that we needed to stop in order to essentially win the game, our manabase colors are not built for 2RB and on top of that a 4 CMC card takes time to deploy unless we have an Exploration in hand that doesn't get countered. And if we are building RGB Lands, then we have Thoughtseize out of the sideboard to strip a Swords out of our opponent's hand.

But Miracles post-board has a lot of problematic cards that are much worse than Swords to Plowshares. Miracles might have Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction or Karakas. And if we have Tireless Tracker as our remaining win condition, they could have chump-blocking Mentor tokens, Terminus, Moat, or Vendillion Clique with Karakas.

So I'm not really seeing why I would want a Slaughter Games in my SB.

[jhport12]

Is this normal? Miracles pilots in my area do not usually side out Terminus against me. :(
Still I always bring in CotV!

Forces a shuffle too!

I know that some Miracles players (i.e., the bad ones) have occasionally done this. It is a mistake that good Miracles players don't make because they know that Chalice of the Void is a thing and Tireless Tracker is a thing.

And if your only out to a Marit Lage is 1 of out 4 Swords, you leave yourself mighty vulnerable to a nuts draw from the Lands player.

[jhport12]

Lands is a deck where practice with it is much much more important than changing sb slots all the time. Its why all the lists that do well are run by the same people and they have their own takes on what is the correct build because of how they play with the deck.

Sib

I think your statement about practice extends well beyond Lands to most decks.

Beyond that, play-style does matter a lot. I've had friends tell me that I play Lands differently than they've seen it played, but not 'worse' than they've seen it played, just different. Some players harmonize more with the control side of Lands, while others the combo side. This can greatly impact what build you play and what your sideboard and maybe-board are.

Sometimes even after you playtest a card and see its benefits, you still don't like it. Some people just don't want to utilize Tireless Tracker, so they find a different way to have an alternate win condition like a Primeval Titan or a planeswalker.

I personally have a strong aversion to the RUG version of Lands because I love the Depths/Stage combo a lot and I remember playing Lands in 2008 with Mishra's and Nantuko Monastery--that was okay back then, but I like the new combo flavor. As a result, I resist the GRB black version with Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize, as well. And when I play, I accept that sometimes I am the control deck, but I don't seek it out.

[Ingo]

I know that some Miracles players (i.e., the bad ones) have occasionally done this. It is a mistake that good Miracles players don't make because they know that Chalice of the Void is a thing and Tireless Tracker is a thing.

And if your only out to a Marit Lage is 1 of out 4 Swords, you leave yourself mighty vulnerable to a nuts draw from the Lands player.

As I wanted to be sure, I posted the question on the Miracles thread. Although answers were diverse, I trust Hyperions (Miracles/landsplayer, made top8 GP Colombus) opinion on the matter, which is siding the 4 Termini out. There wasn't a consensus about the topic though.

[jarvisyu]

As I wanted to be sure, I posted the question on the Miracles thread. Although answers were diverse, I trust Hyperions (Miracles/landsplayer, made top8 GP Colombus) opinion on the matter, which is siding the 4 Termini out. There wasn't a consensus about the topic though.

Having played a bunch of both sides of the matchup, I strongly believe Terminus is bad in the matchup.

[jhport12]

Having played a bunch of both sides of the matchup, I strongly believe Terminus is bad in the matchup.

Can you articulate why? Is the concern that you won't have the library manipulation available to make it work? Or is the theory that SB hate cards are more effective than Terminus and that there are fewer maindeck cards you would want to leave in over Terminus?

[Minniehajj]

Can you articulate why? Is the concern that you won't have the library manipulation available to make it work? Or is the theory that SB hate cards are more effective than Terminus and that there are fewer maindeck cards you would want to leave in over Terminus?

Chiming in for a moment: Terminus is only good if a) we're able to float it and have white mana to use it and b) you're raw dogging Marit Lage and we stumble upon it.

Neither option is optimal for either side post board. a) is taxed because of port/GQ denying us that plan, as well as hate for Top and Brainstorm in the form of Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip and b) is extremely risky.

[Chatto]

With recent inclusion of enchantments like Vortex and Assault, I think it's save to drop Manabond? Tested it yesterday at a local tournament, and never missed the card. Any thoughts?

[jarvisyu]

Chiming in for a moment: Terminus is only good if a) we're able to float it and have white mana to use it and b) you're raw dogging Marit Lage and we stumble upon it.

Neither option is optimal for either side post board. a) is taxed because of port/GQ denying us that plan, as well as hate for Top and Brainstorm in the form of Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip and b) is extremely risky.

agreed with these good reasons.

[Ingo]

With recent inclusion of enchantments like Vortex and Assault, I think it's save to drop Manabond? Tested it yesterday at a local tournament, and never missed the card. Any thoughts?

Loam needs a minimum of cards to abuse it's effect, or you don't translate the cardadvantage in boardadvantage. In a way, Vortex is similar to exploration and manabond as it gives you boardadvantage - not on your side of the field but by burning away your opponents creatures. So yes, you can drop the manabond for some Vortex'es/Assaults as you just traded it for a different kind of card that abuses loam in a different kind of way.

[rlesko]

What are everyone's thoughts on how Lands is positioned for upcoming GP Louisville ?

[Chatto]

Loam needs a minimum of cards to abuse it's effect, or you don't translate the cardadvantage in boardadvantage. In a way, Vortex is similar to exploration and manabond as it gives you boardadvantage - not on your side of the field but by burning away your opponents creatures. So yes, you can drop the manabond for some Vortex'es/Assaults as you just traded it for a different kind of card that abuses loam in a different kind of way.

I wasn't even thinking about Loam, only about the discard at the end step With two enchantment in my main this effect is less desirable. Not saying it happens all the time, but still... After Wednesday-night I just didn't missed Manabond at all.

[Sara_Anderson]

Has anyone tried Nissa, Vital Force as an alternate win condition?