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Thread: [Primer] R/G Lands

  1. #161
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    I agree. It felt like everything the Infect player was trying to do was stymied by just having executing our normal gameplan. They typically play one Forest which makes Wasteland live. Maze of Ith forces them to have exactly Vines of Vastwood, which they have only four copies of total. Tabernacle pinches their mana and so does Rishadan Port.

    Obviously it's important, as always, to have Exploration or Manabond. Never Punishing Fire in combat and you'll be fine.

    After sideboard they have a hard time with Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance.


    (Edit: I mean Infect, not Elves, as I had written originally.)
    Last edited by barcode; 04-02-2015 at 07:50 AM.

  2. #162
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    I find Infect quite manageable, because they're vulnerable to almost everything you run. So many nonbasics for wasteland, all creatures within punishable range, no preboard answers to Marit Lage. That doesn't mean it's an easy matchup, they can kill you very quick, but usually they need more resources to do so than you need to hold them off.
    Infect pressures much harder than Lands. They tend to close out games by turn 5-6 at the very latest, giving you very little time to set up Loam loops, and without those you just don't have the resources to bleed them dry. It's true that you've got a deck chock-full of relevant cards, but those cards tend to be strongest when recurred with Grove/Loam. Outside of this recursion, however, the decks components are relatively weak, they do very little without Loam + time to set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    You can look at the matchup in an opposite way: They need to defensively invest resources (crop rotation, Pendelhaven, pumpspells) to beat Punishing Fire, which won't be spent for the offense. They need Vines of Vastwood to bypass Maze of Ith (don't side them out), so that's another card to cantrip for besides infectguys and pump. If you hold on to crop rotation, you can get Glacial Chasm after they pumped their guy with vines (and hopefully berserk) for an alphastrike (unless they have a (hard)counter as well, besides the setup of an infectguy + lethal pumpspells). I think their best shot of winning is in the first few turns, after that they'll have a hard time punching through manadenial, Pfire, maze/chasm, and Marit Lage lurking around the corner.
    You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.

  3. #163

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Sure Infect pressures harder than Lands, it's a deck that can kill you turn 2 with the perfect hand, versus a control deck (with a combofinish). But you seem to disregard Lands as a slow recursive loamengine, which it (evidently) isn't. Exploration, manabond, crop rotation, gamble, they're all 1 mana cards which make Lands explosive. Lands has 8 1-mana tutors, how is that not consistent?

    (Edit:rewrote last part of the post cause it was badly written)
    Against Infect, all strategic lines as manadenial, Pfire, Mazes, Tabernacle ... can be effective. And they come back from the graveyard, which they do at a much greater speed and consistency than you suggest and can trade one-for-one over and over (while Pfire/Grove and exploration breaking the symmetry), which Infect cannot, as it is limited to the recources it cantrips together. Keeping infect creatures alive from punishing fire is not that easy, especially with exploration creating lots of mana, and using Invigorate or a Vines to keep them alive makes you loose an offensive card. Beating Maze with Vines works great, but you need to have/cantrip one first, whereas Lands has a very good consistency in finding the land it needs, while holding back a crop rotation for stack interaction that can mess up the Infect combo plan through Vines afterall.
    From a Lands player point of view, I like playing the matchup. Not because it is overly favored (I do think we're favored though), but because Infect allows us to fully play our game in all its facets, manadenial and creaturecontrol.
    Last edited by Rivfader; 03-31-2015 at 06:04 PM.

  4. #164

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.
    You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.

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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.
    You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.

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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.
    I really think that its depends on the pilots skill level, an experienced lands pilot or infect pilot makes a huge difference especially in the non common match ups which lands vs infect is. I have personally noob crushed the hell out of infect but it doesn't mean much.

    If you talking about two pilots of high skill levels then it depends on a couple factors like who is on the play, how powerful the opening hands of the respective decks are etc but its probably 55-45 lands. The only reason I say that is Lands as the Lands deck is able to interact at every level of infects gameplan while that is not true for infect.

    Also lands can squeeze a win out of an aggressive tempo deck before the game even starts as the deck is built to crush creatures decks. There is some opening hands that you get with lands that are over before the game even starts, its just how long it takes for your opponents to scoop.

    additionally I was wrong about seismic assault. I just finished my weekly legacy night with me discarding ten lands form my hand on turn 4 or 5 to kill a death and taxes pilot after I broke a Pithing needle naming assault on turn two. Insane






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  7. #167

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.
    Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.

  8. #168

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.
    Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
    Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.

    I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
    Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
    All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
    All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
    An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
    Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
    We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
    They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.

    Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
    They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
    But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.

    It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
    This is written from the point of view of Lands.
    It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.
    Last edited by Ingo; 04-02-2015 at 10:32 AM.

  9. #169
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingo View Post
    Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
    Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.

    I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
    Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
    All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
    All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
    An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
    Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
    We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
    They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.

    Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
    They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
    But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.

    It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
    This is written from the point of view of Lands.
    It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.
    I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.

    Example: Imagine you have a Punishing Fire, so you're now searching for a Grove in order to set up the soft lock. Cards in stock Infect list that would interact with this plan are:
    Every Counter Spell (Daze, FoW, Pierce)
    Most Pump Spells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense)
    Crop Rotation (Pendelhaven, Wasteland)

    Total is about 20 cards, give or take per list

    As an example, Punishing Fire does 2 damage and every creature in infect has 1 toughness, so it seems like a catch-all answer for threats. But that card is a 4 of in your deck, and you need a pretty strong hand (engine card + Grove) otherwise in order to Gamble for it. In the face of G1 soft counters (Daze, Pierce), Pendelhaven, Crop Rotation to fetch Pendlehaven, and 10-ish pump spells, how likely are you to set up a turn that lets you Punishing Fire a creature out? You'd need until about turn 4 or 5 in order to set up a turn where you can Punishing Fire twice, excluding any soft counters they might have. Even if they're using their pump spells in a purely defensive manner, Infect is still poised to win 5 or so attacks.

    This is just a small snippet on Punishing Fire, but what it comes down to is Infect's tools are more versatile. Counterspells are just tools to tempo Lands out, generally for time-walking Loam plays or stopping Crop Rotation in its tracks. Vines of Vastwood is an All-Star, as it addresses Maze, Punishing Fire, and Wasteland in some situations. Crop Rotation does work in this matchup, doing double duty to both Waste out problem Lands and to fetch up Pendelhaven to fight Punishing Fire (also fuels delve, but that's more of a secondary benefit). In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.

  10. #170
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:

    +4 Sphere, -4 Port.
    +1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.

    Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.

    Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.
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  11. #171

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.

    ... In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.
    You are right about disregarding an analysis from A to B, games are much more complex than that. You have listed how a Punishing Fire can be answered in about 20 ways. Ofcourse this argumentation can reversely be used versus an infected attacker:
    3x maze + 4x crop rotation to get it.
    4x punishing Fire + 4x gamble to get it.
    4x Grove of the Burnwillows to retrieve the Punishing Fire and play it again, and 4x crop rotation to get the Grove of the Burnwillows
    4x Life from the Loam to blindflip into any of these pieces (preferably backed up by exploration).
    And 4x crop rotation, as a final backup, to get Glacial Chasm, blanking a comboattack.
    This listing is also simplistic (but I think i've beaten you in having listed more than 20 cards ), and you won't be convinced ofcourse, as I'm not convinced by yours.

    You have too much faith in the counterspell package, which is less elaborate than for example RUG Delver. R/G Lands was made to deal with the fastness of such tempodecks, with gamble and croprotation as one-manatutors getting under softcounters, especially with exploration or Mox Diamond accelerating Lands' manasources. Softcounters can be a Timewalk, but versus 1-manatutors and an accelerated manabase, they're also often dead cards. Softcounters also trade one-for-one, and Punishing Fire comes back every turn with 2 mana and a Grove. RG Lands exploits Punishing Fire to the fullest, having gamble to get it, crop rotation to get Grove, and mana acceleration to pay for it.

    You also listed growspells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense will need time to cast) to protect the infecters. The Punishing Fire might as well have been a Thoughtseize here stripping you of a valuable combocard, trading you down one for one. That's the equivalent of 4 singular attacks (if a softcounter can be perceived as a Timewalk, then Lands is timewalking here as well). The next turn though, Punishing Fire can come back for another shot. How many times can you protect your infecter with growspells, and still set up a succesful attack with multiple poisoncounters, through a returning Punishing Fire? Pendelhaven serves as protection, but this card is up against wasteland, loam and exploration, and so are the other nonbasic lands Infect runs.
    Maze of Ith is a problem as well, as it stops every infecter from connecting. Vines will guide an infecter past the Maze, but if you don't have them, Maze halts any of your attacks, no matter how many counters or other resources you have in hand. Crop rotation is a virtual Maze 4-7, while Vines is usually a 3-off with a limited cantrip package (4 brainstorm and a ponder?) to find them. That's a rather low amount of cantrips and combined with 10 growspells that do nothing on their own, this is less consistent than most bluebased decks usually are. Then again, Infect also runs the lone maindeck crop rotation which could get the single wasteland.

    Getting a Glacial Chasm with crop rotation is a very efficient response to an infected comboattack. Multiple growspells are spent, poison counters dodged, and the price paid (crop rotation and a sacced land) is returned through the cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire. Infects growspells though are gone forgood, and it will take time to cantrip into business again. You can argue that the crop rotation can be countered, but you would probably need a Force of Will, as a 1mana croprotation is hard to softcounter. Holding back a crop rotation for a card like Chasm also potentially gets one of the missing Depths - Stage combopieces. Just like Infect crop rotates EOT for Inkmoth Nexus, Marit Lage pops up in the same way. Infect has no maindeck way to deal with the token, and in the fastest circumstances it attacks turn 3 (disregarding a perfect manabond hand).

    You overestimate Infects efficiency by basing it on superb infect hands, where you have an ideal cardmix of infecters, lands, growspells, cantrips and superefficient softcounters (essentially timewalking the opponent), while you depict Lands as a slow deck needing 4/5 turns to get any form of defense online. That's not a realistic portret of the matchup. I do not underestimate the versatility, consistency and fastness of Infect (I respect it as it is also an original and powerful concept, refreshing in a cantrip Legacy scene stitching staplecards together). I do think though you underestimate Lands ability to deal with Infect, as R/G Lands is basically designed to deal with this kind of (small creatures, nonbasic manabase) deck.
    Last edited by Ingo; 04-03-2015 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #172
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

    What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:

    +4 Sphere, -4 Port.
    +1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.

    Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.

    Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.
    I would not side out all of the ports. They are maze of iths for Inkmoth Nexuses and make the overall mana denial plan better. Instead, I'd go with taking out 1 port, 1 thicket, 1 karakas, 1 bog or maybe 1 stage. Also i'd think about siding Chalice, because it turns off 3/4th of the infect's spells.

    Overall about the matchup in my vision: infect's best line is a well prepared 1 turn kill (not to confuse with a first turn kill). This case is a hard day for lands. If the game goes to mid/late stage, than infect will soon run out of cards, due to recurrable fires, mazes, etc. The practical question is, does the infect player realize that or not.
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  14. #174

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

    What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
    Seems like a great little video. It would be a good intro for anyone who has no idea what the deck is trying to do and just wants a quick overview.

  15. #175

    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

    What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
    It's a nice vid, just 1 comment, somewhere there's mentioned Dark Depths can be stifled. It can, but it makes no difference as it will trigger again immediatly.

    Seismic Assault is described as a sidecard versus control featuring StP. I side it though against every deck giving me enough time (midrange - control), basically replacing manabond. It cheats with loam just like manabond does, exchanging speed for a mid- lategame blowout. It has also come in handy for me versus cards that shut of a line of play, like extraction on Depths/Pfire, or Meddling Mage on PFire, as another killcondition and a way to control troublesome creatures (like Knight of the Reliquary).

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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.

    I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.

    I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.
    Primeval Titan IS the anti-Moon tech. Fetch your Forest and use your Moxes to cast P-time to bide your time until you draw a Krosan Grip.

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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    @ barcode: then why do all the last lists doing good only pack Seismic Assault? It also doesn't make sense seeing Prime-time as Anti-moon tech: you need to go through a lot of hoops getting him on the table, whereas Assault gets pretty easy cast. Only fetch your Forest to cast Loam and voilą!

    Don't get me wrong, I love Prime-time and almost always pack one in my SB, but stating it's Anti-Moon tech is something I disagree with.
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    Double post, but I found this article on Legit MTG I would like share. I'm not sold on everything he writes, but it's a good, pretty basic, straightforward article, nevertheless.
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    Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands

    With the scores as they are, we are set to be a DTB this month.

    Also that write up is not too bad. What it shows me though is the deck is gaining respect. People are paying attention, people are looking for information, people are taking lands seriously. While the Combo build is the more common, I am expecting an uptake in Control builds too making for an interesting cross pollination of ideas and builds. The hybrid build I think will have its own fans too. (Like myself) This is exciting.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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