[Primer] R/G Lands

[Teluin]

Is there a replacement for DoH? I thought about Porphyry Nodes but the splash of white is just UGHH at best. I am headed to Seattle and looking for anyone that might have a DoH I could borrow I could have you hold cards of equal value if this was feasible.

I'm not saying it would work, but perhaps a Riftstone Portal might work? Can also help vs Blood Moon. Just a thought.

[Wiktul]

Some interesting data from SCG tops:

11 Grixis Delvers in top 32 Worcester:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck..._name&limit=50

and another 4 in top 16 of another event:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...ester&state=MA

3 very different Lands lists in those tops, one with 4GQ and 0 Ports, one with 4GQ and 3 Ports, one "classic" with 1GQ and 3 Ports. One with 3 Mazes, one with 2, one with (finally!) Riftstone Portal main, quite similar sideboard options:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119254
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119286
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119291

[Wiktul]

And some more data - Luis Scott Vargas playing Lands on CFB:

https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-channel-lsv/

[J0n]

But EE builds take space (you'll want a Trip p!us Academy Ruins), so you end up running a slower prison build that combos less quickly.

I disagree that this kind of build will always be slower.

I am playing 4 Explorations + 1 Manabond and this manabase:

Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

And I absolutely don't have the feeling that this list is slower than the standard RG build which plays +1 Tranquil/Sheltered Thicket & +1 Karakas/another Thicket or Taiga. So there is basically no difference in terms of speed (regarding creating the token). The difference is in the playstyle - a recurring EE definitely takes time. But creating a token or assembling a recurring EE are two completely different things.

TL;DR: Yes, you end up running an even more grindy build but you won't combo less quickly. But I am happy to hear your feedback about your experience!

[Crimhead]

Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Exploration + Manabond
4 Mox
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Loam
4 PF/MV

That's 60 cards. I assume you have cut at least 1 spell to make room for 2x EE?

Normally people cut into the Stage/Depths package to make room for the EE package (hence the reduced speed). Just trying to figure out what you have cut instead (EE is a 4 card package, but you've listed only 2 cuts).

Your build does look like it would transition from fast to slow smoothly. Giving up a bit of utility and protection though.

[J0n]

That's 60 cards. I assume you have cut at least 1 spell to make room for 2x EE?

Exactly, I am playing a 2/2 split pFire/EE. I absolutely don't need 4 EEs.

Giving up a bit of utility and protection though.

Also true. But to be honest: I don't like playing Karakas (S&T / BR Reanimator is still a bad MU, even with Karakas) and think that Canopy is overrated. I could play a second thicket to protect my loam... but as you already mentioned: I needed to cut the slots somewhere! ;-)
What I like the most is a) maindeck answers to annoying permanents and b) more SB slots as I don't need to play 4 Grips c) even after the second surgical I can still have a functional engine. The grind is real, especially with crucible in the SB...

And I guess that playing 4 DD seems to be absolutely necessary in the current meta, we need to be a able to jam a very fast token on the board.

[TLK]

J0n,

What’s your current list?

[J0n]

J0n,

What’s your current list?

Spells:25
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam

Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Drop of Honey
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Tomb

[Darkgobs]

Spells:25
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam

Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Drop of Honey
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Tomb

Interesting list. Few questions:

1) Do you feel you really need the Drop of Honey while running the EE engine?

2) Same question for Barbarian Ring

Thanks! =)

[J0n]

Interesting list. Few questions:

1) Do you feel you really need the Drop of Honey while running the EE engine?

2) Same question for Barbarian Ring

Thanks! =)

DoH is extremely good in the current meta, especially against TNN or just to slow-down the opponent without spending too much mana. Most of the Drops won't live long anyway - but the goal is to just trade better than the opp or remove critical creatures. Putting it in the Show & tell is nice but won't help you too much... anyway: It's not an engine and it won't live long. But it's a key card against D&T and TNN.

Barb ring is more than a removal to me. In many MUs it feels more like an alternative win con, especially with exploration & crucible. I would not miss this card and love it. Originally it was introduced because of Sanctum Prelate but it also comes in very handy when removing annoying blockers like strixes, etc.

The lack of Trackers in this list is just due to my personal playing style.

[Darkgobs]

@J0n: Thanks for the answer =)


@everyone:

Speaking of Trackers, what is your sideboard plan with them? I am having a confusing time trying to figure out what are the right in/out to play them. And in which m-u do you play them exactly now?
(I know I have asked this question here in the past, but the meta changed and I am still not sure what I am supposed to do here.) In advance, thank you!

[J0n]

And in which m-u do you play them exactly now?

They're basically not just very good beaters but a card draw engine which helps a lot in a "post surgical" board state but also protects loam against surgical. So board them in MUs where you expect a) grindy game b) need alternative clock c) have free slots (f.e. maze against storm, etc)

[Tittliewinks22]

Broken Bond
1G
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.

Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.

These look like they have potential.

[Ingo]

Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.

Pretty sweet against Serra's Sanctum or forests covered with Wild Growths :)

It's basically Sol Land hate, but I don't know if I'd prefer it over spheres as the first spell remains untaxed.

[Tittliewinks22]

Pretty sweet against Serra's Sanctum or forests covered with Wild Growths :)

It's basically Sol Land hate, but I don't know if I'd prefer it over spheres as the first spell remains untaxed.

Doesn't work vs enchant lands, the enchantment produces mana not the land itself :(

[Ingo]

Doesn't work vs enchant lands, the enchantment produces mana not the land itself :(

Ah, too bad, I've got 2 Enchantress players in my local store

[Epeirogeny]

Looking for some advice. Went 3-2 today. Luckily it was a team event and I got backpacked through my two losses. Both losses were against proficient miracles players. I have not been able to get a game in against them. It seems the only way I can’t win the matchup is hoping my opponent plays poorly. But when against optimal opponent, I can’t find a line to victory. My sideboard no longer contains Boseiju, Nissa, Boil, Choke, etc since Top was banned. Is it time to go back to a slightly older board plan now that miracles is making a comeback?


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[Dice_Box]

I'm running Choke.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Been playing this list for a few months, I really like revoker in the SnT matchup and miracles games. Pressure life total or soaking up a stp to clear the way for tracker or ML is great and stops Jace+nahiri. Fallout has been great in matchups that go wide. I've seen so many drops get countered or ThoughtS, id rather just EE+ruins them.
The biggest drawback I've had has been speed, but I'm not afraid of a nice looooong grind my play style is conservative. Could swap Karakas for ancient tomb and speed it up.
RGCL (EE+Ruins):

Maindeck (60)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ancient Tomb

[Elfkid]

Hi, i have GP Birmingham in a few months, im still searching for a deck, before buying a tabernacle, can i ask if drop of honey is really necessary?

thanks in advance and sorry for the weird question :D