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Thread: [Primer] R/G Lands

  1. #4961
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/r...14-cindervines

    Is this new toy good enough for us? Mixture between Krosan Grip and Pyrostatic Pillar (to hose Storm).. Saving sideboard spaces?

  2. #4962

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by slayjay View Post
    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/r...14-cindervines

    Is this new toy good enough for us? Mixture between Krosan Grip and Pyrostatic Pillar (to hose Storm).. Saving sideboard spaces?
    It's an interesting mixture, but it's not good enough.
    In comparison with sphere, having RG (versus2) available on turn 2 isn't evident.
    And taxing is way more efficient than pinging 1 damage, as they still have a window of 19 spells to go off.

  3. #4963

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    It's an interesting mixture, but it's not good enough.
    In comparison with sphere, having RG (versus2) available on turn 2 isn't evident.
    And taxing is way more efficient than pinging 1 damage, as they still have a window of 19 spells to go off.
    If we play this card, we do so alongside the usual combo hate (swapping KGrip).
    This card has the potential to shut down nausea, is pretty good against grixis and miracle, because it can be effective and useful even if no enchantment gets played.
    Ill try the 3/1 split with KGrip, i still want to have one to gamble for
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  4. #4964
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    If we play this card, we do so alongside the usual combo hate (swapping KGrip).
    This card has the potential to shut down nausea, is pretty good against grixis and miracle, because it can be effective and useful even if no enchantment gets played.
    Ill try the 3/1 split with KGrip, i still want to have one to gamble for
    That is exactly the way I want to use this. Instead of Grip additional to Sphere.

  5. #4965
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Have any Lands players tried Scab-Clan Berserker yet?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  6. #4966

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Have any Lands players tried Scab-Clan Berserker yet?
    At 3 mana is much better to try denial + trinisphere.
    At 2 mana we could try eidolon but having RR its too unreliable, also, if we run tomb, we have a good chance to be able to cast a turn 1 thorn/sphere/cotv
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  7. #4967
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    That all makes sense, I just figured it was hate + pressure. I know the typical path is to just make a 20/20 and the sideboard is there to give you time to do so. I know Tireless Tracker is sideboard tech for Lands, but for different reasons. I just figured you could curve this out: t1 Thorn, t2 Berserker, attack, and while opponent's are trying to get enough mana to find an answer to thorn you can be pressuring their life total, all the while still having something they will likely need to deal with before they combo. It's mostly for storm, but I can imagine it being good against cantrip-heavy control decks (Miracles and Grixis).

    I figured if this new enchantment was being considered it might be an idea to evaluate similar effects. What tips the scales for the enchantment is the Naturalize effect, right? Pyrostatic Pillar deals more damage but is narrower, Berserker deals even more damage than Pillar but costs more.

    I was just curious, it's been tech for Ruby Storm to fight opposing storm decks. Did Damping Sphere ever become a thing for Lands?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  8. #4968

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That all makes sense, I just figured it was hate + pressure. I know the typical path is to just make a 20/20 and the sideboard is there to give you time to do so. I know Tireless Tracker is sideboard tech for Lands, but for different reasons. I just figured you could curve this out: t1 Thorn, t2 Berserker, attack, and while opponent's are trying to get enough mana to find an answer to thorn you can be pressuring their life total, all the while still having something they will likely need to deal with before they combo. It's mostly for storm, but I can imagine it being good against cantrip-heavy control decks (Miracles and Grixis).

    I figured if this new enchantment was being considered it might be an idea to evaluate similar effects. What tips the scales for the enchantment is the Naturalize effect, right? Pyrostatic Pillar deals more damage but is narrower, Berserker deals even more damage than Pillar but costs more.

    I was just curious, it's been tech for Ruby Storm to fight opposing storm decks. Did Damping Sphere ever become a thing for Lands?
    Mainly this deck folds to moon, so you must run 3/4 disenchant effects, so this card can be considered because it can overlap the two main weakness of the deck.

    Surely this card is not amazing against combo, its quite possible that even ANT can combo under it, but being able to "shut down" nausea, forcing a pif (that we can beat with crop rotation for bojuka) is decent.
    Being able to do free chip damage to grixis could allow some free punishing fire wins, its also decent to use this card instead of grip because some grixis player run moon, some dont, so at least with this card you are getting some value during the game if you have no target, same for miracle and possible CB/B2B/Moon.

    The main weakness of this card compared to KGrip is ofc being soft to answers (needle/revoker + counters), which may be enough to not run it
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  9. #4969
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Did Damping Sphere ever become a thing for Lands?
    Nope. Not taxing (first played) cantrips is a huge downside, as they can find combo pieces, lands and bounce/artifact removal more easily. It's also weaker against SnT and Miracles (some people tend to board in Spheres against the latter).
    I riffle shuffle so hard. Bitch, my Tabernacle twitters #metoo.

  10. #4970
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    One side is worse that Sphere, the other side is redundant because we loop Wasteland.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  11. #4971

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Looks like new rules change made Tabby triggers non-detrimental: if opponent forgets and draws, they are still able to pay. Doing this intentionally is still cheating of course.

  12. #4972

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by baboontilt View Post
    Looks like new rules change made Tabby triggers non-detrimental: if opponent forgets and draws, they are still able to pay. Doing this intentionally is still cheating of course.
    Huh? Where do I find this?

  13. #4973
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by whocansay View Post
    Huh? Where do I find this?
    https://blogs.magicjudges.org/tellio...ca-allegiance/

  14. #4974

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by whocansay View Post
    Huh? Where do I find this?
    informative...

    i would guess we have three choices concerning tabernacle triggers:

    1. remind opponent during upkeep that their creatures now have an upkeep cost and hope they "hear" you before drawing a card; can't prove intent.
    2. if opponent forgets the upkeep costs and draws a card, we remind the opponent during draw step (tabby trigger goes on stack) and then they can pay
    3. or... wait until the opponent has moved past upkeep and into main phase or even combat to remind them about the missed tabby trigger (goes on the stack then) which they still have to pay or have their creatures destroyed.

    so yes, in instance number 3, you can have the tabby trigger go on the stack somewhat later in their turn and even after they've tapped out.

    These "changes" affect several other cards like the Pacts and even cards like Kataki, War's Wage

  15. #4975
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    The thing that I dislike, because you can now miss the trigger, there is no benefit to shortcutting by putting a land under a creature. Why do that when they could miss the trigger now? It will add time.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  16. #4976
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    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Played today a small local tournament. Tested 3 Cindervines instead of K-Grip. Feeled bad. They had no real impact in the games, but the fear that opponent had Force of Will was there...
    And 3 of 5 players were aware of the new Tabernacle rule and seemed to want to talk me into mistakes with this. But I played decent and nice all the time :D

    Played against

    Grixis Control (2-0)
    Reanimator (2-0)
    Small Eldrazi (2-1)
    Death Shadow (0-2), even against a mulligan to 5 I lost, he just had the nuts in the two games. Thought this matchup is quite easy for us?
    Man of Steel (2-1)

    Was good enough for second place and an Engineered Explosives, Death Shadow won the whole thing.

    Played a similar RUG list like the one who top 8ed MKM series Bologna with some small changes. Really like Explosives more in this meta than Punishing (Moon, Back to Basics, Chalice, Death Shadows). Still unsure at 4 Port / 1 Ghost or 3/2...

    35 LANDS
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Bojuka Bog
    4 Dark Depths
    1 Forest
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Karakas
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Maze of Ith
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Riftstone Portal
    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Taiga
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 Thespian's Stage
    1 Tranquil Thicket
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Windswept Heath
    4 Wasteland
    1 Barbarian Ring
    13 INSTANTS and SORC.
    4 Crop Rotation
    3 Gamble
    4 Life from the Loam
    2 Punishing Fire
    12 OTHER SPELLS
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Engineered Explosives
    4 Exploration
    1 Molten Vortex
    4 Mox Diamond
    SIDEBOARD
    1 Ancient Tomb
    3 Chalice of the Void
    2 Choke
    1 Drop of Honey
    3 Cindervines
    2 Sphere of Resistance
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Tireless Tracker




    Overall I will swap the Cinders back to K Grips after this. Split second is just too relevant against Counterbalance.

  17. #4977

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    I've been out of it a while. What's the new Tabernacle rule?

    gigapatrick

  18. #4978

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    I've been out of it a while. What's the new Tabernacle rule?

    gigapatrick
    Welcome back! I'll never forget how useful your videos were when I was first starting to learn Lands.

    Regarding the change, here's the relevant announcement: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/tellio...ca-allegiance/

    It's pretty confusing, but here is my basic understanding (note: am not a judge)... there are no longer default actions meaning for Tabernacle if your opponent moves to their draw step all their creatures no longer automatically die. Instead it is more or less your responsibility to remind the opponent before/during their upkeep about the trigger. It sounds like there's opportunity for bad intentioned opponents to essentially ignore your reminder and blow through to their draw step by untapped/drawing quickly, thereby gaining extra information before decided to pay the trigger. Repeating this action can result in judge intervention if they find that your opponent is doing it on purpose. In the scenario where your opponent misses the Tabernacle trigger and you conveniently also "forget", you're allowed to remember the trigger and put it on the stack later in the turn. So for example, the opponent taps out to cast a spell and then you remember the trigger the opponent's creatures will be wiped. This again, could be subject to judge intervention if you're forgetting the Tabernacle trigger intentionally. Again, the rules are still very unclear and it seems like most players are still trying to figure out how this all shakes out in practice. I've just been reminding people very clearly at the beginning of each turn and trying to avoid the whole mess about what happens after the upkeep.

    Again, I'm not a judge so if any other players can jump in to add additional context or correct the above, I'd appreciate it!

  19. #4979

    Re: [Primer] R/G Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by filln View Post
    Welcome back! I'll never forget how useful your videos were when I was first starting to learn Lands.

    Regarding the change, here's the relevant announcement: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/tellio...ca-allegiance/

    It's pretty confusing, but here is my basic understanding (note: am not a judge)... there are no longer default actions meaning for Tabernacle if your opponent moves to their draw step all their creatures no longer automatically die. Instead it is more or less your responsibility to remind the opponent before/during their upkeep about the trigger. It sounds like there's opportunity for bad intentioned opponents to essentially ignore your reminder and blow through to their draw step by untapped/drawing quickly, thereby gaining extra information before decided to pay the trigger. Repeating this action can result in judge intervention if they find that your opponent is doing it on purpose. In the scenario where your opponent misses the Tabernacle trigger and you conveniently also "forget", you're allowed to remember the trigger and put it on the stack later in the turn. So for example, the opponent taps out to cast a spell and then you remember the trigger the opponent's creatures will be wiped. This again, could be subject to judge intervention if you're forgetting the Tabernacle trigger intentionally. Again, the rules are still very unclear and it seems like most players are still trying to figure out how this all shakes out in practice. I've just been reminding people very clearly at the beginning of each turn and trying to avoid the whole mess about what happens after the upkeep.

    Again, I'm not a judge so if any other players can jump in to add additional context or correct the above, I'd appreciate it!
    Well, if I still played in paper, I think I'd be peeved. I sold all my paper cards a couple years ago and just play online now, where you can't forget triggers in the first place. Sounds like a major headache for the paper scene. Ugh.

    Edit: And I'm glad my videos helped you out.

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