[Primer] R/G Lands

[Ingo]

I think you're thinking about the card wrong. You can't dream of 4 for 1'ing your opponent with it. Imagine being on the draw and your opponent played a turn 1 deathrite. On turn 2 he may even cast a true name or something, at which point you are very far behind. Well, if you play the card on turn 1, your opponent now will probably let his shaman die to get rid of the drop of honey. Its only a 1 for 1, but you bought yourself a TON of tempo. Same scenario can apply to elves or taxes.

You are right about this tempo-aspect, and maybe it's even better to wait for a second creature to hit the board.

For example:
T1: Deathrite, you T1: gamble for DoH
T2: Leovold/TNN, you T2: DoH

Now your opponent is in a big dilemma, even huger tempoloss and wait for Drop and his creatures to be destroyed over the next 3 turns, or try to cantrip into new creatures to keep one threat alive and attempt to ride it to victory (feels very unlikely to me, even without further disruption from Lands' side).

[Lormador]

It sure would be hilarious to keep the Drop around with a Marit Lage on the board, but with Big Girl there chillin' I doubt we need Drop of Honey to be there.

[Dice_Box]

I think its mostly for Snt. To take out large creatures you can't Fire off the table.

[Crimhead]

How so? http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=124470 "This is the timeshifted version of Drop of Honey."

What I mean is that even if you are running Savannah, white is off-colour mana. If your opener has Drop and Gamble, you fetch Taiga. If you are looking at Nodes and Gamble, what do you fetch? If you have a Grove instead of a fetchland, you're gold with Drop but kind of screwed with Nodes.

[djxstream]

What I mean is that even if you are running Savannah, white is off-colour mana. If your opener has Drop and Gamble, you fetch Taiga. If you are looking at Nodes and Gamble, what do you fetch? If you have a Grove instead of a fetchland, you're gold with Drop but kind of screwed with Nodes.

fetch taiga, gamble for riftstone portal, obviously. (joking)

I'm a fan of drop of honey, but honestly it's too conditional and this deck shines when it's proactive not reactive. So having a card that we hold up for opportune moments doesnt fit IMO.

[rlesko]

You are right about this tempo-aspect, and maybe it's even better to wait for a second creature to hit the board.

For example:
T1: Deathrite, you T1: gamble for DoH
T2: Leovold/TNN, you T2: DoH

Now your opponent is in a big dilemma, even huger tempoloss and wait for Drop and his creatures to be destroyed over the next 3 turns, or try to cantrip into new creatures to keep one threat alive and attempt to ride it to victory (feels very unlikely to me, even without further disruption from Lands' side).

Agreed, you could wait longer. But wait too long, and you're dead!

I think its mostly for Snt. To take out large creatures you can't Fire off the table.

Meh, I would think most Sneak players wouldn't just drop an emrakul game 2/3. And if its grisel they get to draw 7-14 and we already lose. I don't think its great vs SnT

What I mean is that even if you are running Savannah, white is off-colour mana. If your opener has Drop and Gamble, you fetch Taiga. If you are looking at Nodes and Gamble, what do you fetch? If you have a Grove instead of a fetchland, you're gold with Drop but kind of screwed with Nodes.

Ah, I see what you meant. I thought the card had been slightly errata'd or something and I was missing the difference. Either way, I wouldn't seriously entertain silly things like splashing white for porphyry nodes. If we are splashing a third color I'm going blue for EE pretty much every time.

[kravkenov]

I think you're thinking about the card wrong. You can't dream of 4 for 1'ing your opponent with it. Imagine being on the draw and your opponent played a turn 1 deathrite. On turn 2 he may even cast a true name or something, at which point you are very far behind. Well, if you play the card on turn 1, your opponent now will probably let his shaman die to get rid of the drop of honey. Its only a 1 for 1, but you bought yourself a TON of tempo. Same scenario can apply to elves or taxes.

Ok, I agree. But anyway, if this scenario happens, opponent can still cast a Delver or another Shaman, and you still get beaten by True-Name. I don't think Drop of Honey is that strong and you will need some other source of creature removal to stay in the match. But yes, in some specifics situations Drop can shine. Does it deserve a sideboard slot ? Hum, I doubt, it's very meta dependant.

[rlesko]

Ok, I agree. But anyway, if this scenario happens, opponent can still cast a Delver or another Shaman, and you still get beaten by True-Name. I don't think Drop of Honey is that strong and you will need some other source of creature removal to stay in the match. But yes, in some specifics situations Drop can shine. Does it deserve a sideboard slot ? Hum, I doubt, it's very meta dependant.

I'm not sure what you mean. The card is best when your opponent has 2 creatures committed to the board. As someone stated earlier your opponent would then need to allow themselves to get 2 for 1'd and get rid of the drop OR try to make an enormous board presence and ignore the drop, in which case we can punishing fire / maze / chasm while drop does its work.

On another note, I'm having a particularly hard time beating UWx decks post board with our deck. The combo of multiple snapcaster mages and surgical extraction is brutal. If I go turbo 20/20, they just cast swords to plowshares on the token and extract loam / dark depths. If I play it slow I feel like I just allow them to draw into more outs. Anyone have any advice on how to approach this match up? Or hot tech?

[Crimhead]

On another note, I'm having a particularly hard time beating UWx decks post board with our deck. The combo of multiple snapcaster mages and surgical extraction is brutal. If I go turbo 20/20, they just cast swords to plowshares on the token and extract loam / dark depths. If I play it slow I feel like I just allow them to draw into more outs. Anyone have any advice on how to approach this match up? Or hot tech?

Run more Chalice. Stops Extraction and Plow both.

Cycle lands help protect Loam. Cutting back on Depths helps prevent exposure. Tracker or Crucible help you win without Loam or Depths respectively.

Also, sometimes you can CR into a DD in response to extraction. This puts one into play where it dodges the exile.

If your UWx opponent is on Miracles they run very few threats. You should be able to play control and grind them out with BRing or PFire. If they are playing Blade that's a much more aggressive deck, but you might still pull it off

[Dice_Box]

I have had no issues dealing with the new Miracles deck personally, but I feel like that will change as those playing them get more practice with that deck. I have a 2 and a half year headstart on knowing my deck. Some of these people have just picked this up.

That said, Ghost Quarter really plays hell with them. I prioritise killing their White mana, keeping them off ever having double White so yeah Angels is not a problem. I try to keep Punishing Fire in hand to kill Jace. If you can do those two things, you will win the first game. Post board it's a pain. Because there seams to be no set sideboard, so I get stung by both the usual suspects and shit I don't see coming. Do not be afraid to conced game two in the opening turns if you get hit hard and need the time to win.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Played it yesterday for the first time and molten vortex plus a few ghost quarters was more than they could deal with in both games. Scariest thing out of the board was a back to basics.

[rlesko]

It was actually more of a deathblade / stoneblade deck, which is why I think it is fundamentally different than new miracles. I should have specified that.

The trouble is, they just land a true name and then our ability to play around all their other hate cards goes out the window.

Can you guys share your board plans for both new miracles and stoneblade style decks?

Chalice sounds good, also saving rotation to beat surgical on dark depths seems great too...that is something I haven't done yet.

[Dice_Box]

Yea TNN... Fuck that card. It hits the board, I'm on the clock.

[Crimhead]

The most recent Deathblade list I saw runs 20 lands (10 that make mana, 7 that make coloured mana, and 0 that are basic).

If they are able to land a True Name, surely we can kill it with our Tabby? A lot of people not on the splash have a sweeper in the board too.

I haven't personally faced a Blade deck for quite some time, but it seems like a match we should like playing.

[Dice_Box]

The issue is that you suddenly hit a clock and TNN takes up all your energy. If you don't have Waste/Quarter or Tabernacle your in a bind with limited options. TNN is a card that I singlely haven the most issue with. DRS is a pain, but a very manageable one. TNN I need the exact right sequence of cards and if my opponent knows what I am doing they will force my Loam for a turn or two.

Seriously, TNN is a problem that only Chasm loops and Tabernacle can deal with and if you don't have either and you can't race it time, there is no answer. The card is a royal pain in the arse.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I haven't played against deathblade lately but for new miracles I boarded like the following with a 34 land, molten vortex, and ghost quarter build.

- 1 Manabond
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Glacial Chasm
- 3 Maze of Ith

+ 2 Tireless Tracker
+ 3 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Chalice of the Void

It was a mentor build so I kept tabernacle in but I could see cutting that depending on what you are facing and how the board is configured.

As for TNN... the only match I dropped in my league yesterday was versus merfolk. The two post-board games against them were just TNN into more TNN or a phantasm with some force of wills slowing me down enough to not be relevant. How many basics was the deathblade deck you faced playing rlesko?

[Crimhead]

TNN I need the exact right sequence of cards...

So do they. They need 2 lands plus a dork plus TNN, and for us not to draw a Wasteland (we have 8) or removal for the dork (unless they also have a Force). And even then, it's not a very fast clock without help (and it can't block Marit Lage).

Sometimes they'll get there, but I wouldn't consider this a tough match.

If you don't have Waste/Quarter...

Seriously, TNN is a problem that only Chasm loops and Tabernacle can deal with and if you don't have either and you can't race it time, there is no answer.

No mana denial, no Chasm, no EE, no combo...
What do we have in this worst case scenario?
I guess we can't win if our deck gives us literally nothing.

Blade decks are not a free win like Canadian Thresh or Elves. But we have a lot of ways to beat them and plenty of time to do it. I'll bet my nickel on the Lands deck every time.

[Dice_Box]

The issue is to take out a TNN you need 3 parts, working together and on time. I get that sometimes you will get shat on, that's not my point. Sometimes you will get what you need but too late. Also for you to do this you have to focus only on their mana, while ignoring your own development and then if they draw a fetch it's you having to start all over again.

I get that it might look like I am saying "This is the most extreme example" but it doesn't feel that way. If you don't have a Exploration on the table, a TNN is likely to kill you before you can stop it with Tabernacle in my opinion.

[Crimhead]

I get that it might look like I am saying "This is the most extreme example" but it doesn't feel that way.

I've taken my lumps against Stoneblade, and I agree it's harder in practice than it seems like it should be in theory.

But I believe we are favoured and I stick to that (maybe 2:1 or 3:5 for us, as an estimate). They don't require extreme luck to beat us, but they need luck nonetheless (especially if we splash for EE).

[rlesko]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15546&d=294834

The most recent Deathblade list I saw runs 20 lands (10 that make mana, 7 that make coloured mana, and 0 that are basic).

If they are able to land a True Name, surely we can kill it with our Tabby? A lot of people not on the splash have a sweeper in the board too.

I haven't personally faced a Blade deck for quite some time, but it seems like a match we should like playing.

The list was more like something above. So, enough basics to be troublesome and consistent. As far as I know, it isn't possible to chasm lock around surgical unless two thespian's stages are involved.

The issue is that you suddenly hit a clock and TNN takes up all your energy. If you don't have Waste/Quarter or Tabernacle your in a bind with limited options. TNN is a card that I singlely haven the most issue with. DRS is a pain, but a very manageable one. TNN I need the exact right sequence of cards and if my opponent knows what I am doing they will force my Loam for a turn or two.

Seriously, TNN is a problem that only Chasm loops and Tabernacle can deal with and if you don't have either and you can't race it time, there is no answer. The card is a royal pain in the arse.

Correct. So we spend all our mana trying to beat the true name, and then we aren't taxing our opponent at all (now opening up opportunities for equipments to come into play). It is also difficult to dedicate 1-2 extra mana for rotations / cycle lands under this type of pressure.

I haven't played against deathblade lately but for new miracles I boarded like the following with a 34 land, molten vortex, and ghost quarter build.

- 1 Manabond
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Glacial Chasm
- 3 Maze of Ith

+ 2 Tireless Tracker
+ 3 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Chalice of the Void

It was a mentor build so I kept tabernacle in but I could see cutting that depending on what you are facing and how the board is configured.

As for TNN... the only match I dropped in my league yesterday was versus merfolk. The two post-board games against them were just TNN into more TNN or a phantasm with some force of wills slowing me down enough to not be relevant. How many basics was the deathblade deck you faced playing rlesko?

3-4. I posted a list above. I am also not on the quarter build right now. I agree with your boarding plan against unexpected miracles.

So do they. They need 2 lands will plus a dork plus TNN, and for us not to draw a Wasteland (we have 8) or removal for the dork (unless they also have a Force). And even then, it's not a very fast clock without help (and it can't block Marit Lage).

Sometimes they'll get there, but I wouldn't consider this a tough match.

First of all, they have basics and it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a turn 2 true name. Initially I thought the same as you. Game 1 we are definitely favored. Game 2 I think we are definitely underdogs when you consider they bring in surgical extraction, meddling mages, and potentially a number of other problematic cards (rest in peace, pithing needle, etc). Also the fact that 2-3 surgicals really can become 4-6 virtual copies when you factor in snapcaster mage and it allows them to throw the card around aggressively.

Initially I boarded in multiple Grips but I actually think that is a trap. The equipments aren't necessarily problematic its just the true names and / or meddling mages. Maze kind of sucks too, but it is nice to be able to hide behind it if they meddling mage punishing fire. So, all things considered, I definitely want to bring in the following cards

+2 Tracker
+2 Chalice
+1 Grudge (basically the 4th grip in my list)

In terms of cards to cut the first two are easy
-1 Manabond
-1 Karakas

In a post board game like this where we need to be a little more precise on when we make a marit lage I trim a copy of Dark Depths. I've been experimenting with a ghost quarter in my SB too and I think I would bring it in.
So
-1 Dark Depths
+1 Ghost Quarter

I think I would trim a maze because True name is really the problem card and I don't wanna draw a bunch of mazes while staring one down. Meddlng mage and equipped stoneforge could be problematic so thats why I'll only shave a single copy
-1 Maze of ith

So thats 4 cuts, but I still need to trim 2 more cards. I definitely think they should be 1 drops because I'm planning to play a chalice for 1. So trim 2 of gamble / crop rotation. Not sure of the split here...I lean towards trimming the gambles just due to the unpredictable nature of the card. In games where we have to be hyper conscious of what hits our graveyard and when, rotation seems to be better suited for a game like that. I also like being able to rotate for barbarian ring with meddling mage on board...

What do you guys think?