It felt like I gave up very little with that list I played and gained a lot. I will try it some more, but at this point I am very happy with EE and feel it's a valid addition if you wish to use it.
I understand the desire to pull back, with some tweaking though that might become my primary list.
I like buried ruin, but I also like having a fetchable option to set EE on 3.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Don't forget Ensnaring Bridge as another major reason that EE on 3 is relevant. Getting the blue off a land also gives you a far more realistic chance (Mox) of reaching 4 colors to hit Jace.
We're all learning. That why video coverage is so valuable.
I was surprised towards the end of the final round that you didn't Krosan Grip the Vial@3 to force the opponent to cast Flickerwisp in the main phase before you made the token, or Punishing Fire the Flickerwisp once it was on the board to get your damage through turns earlier. It seemed you had inevitability so perhaps these plays weren't necessary, but with D&T I always worry about some combination of Cataclysm/RIP in a key spot and don't want to give them extra draws to find it.
I agree with Rivfader. You've got Gambles for hate. There's also Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog on a Past in Flames line, or even just messing up their threshold in response to Cabal Ritual. Crop --> Tabernacle vs Empty the Warrens. For the R/G players testing Engineered Explosives, you've got the added benefit of using it to wipe out Goblins or any Lion's Eye Diamonds, Petals, or Chrome Moxen they play out early to beat Sphere effects. You also threaten to make Marit Lage and just win. At this point the only thing left is a Ghost Quarter for their basics. Finally, there's the benefit that many storm players underestimate Lands' ability in the matchup. You've by no means given up the matchup.
BTW, was that the same Ben who piloted Storm to top 8 at SCG Indy recently? It was a very impressive run.
I believe it was.
Just a question: anyone else feel like you could get away with just three K grip?
That's why I have been using for a while. Swapped the 4th out for a Grudge.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I was experimentimg with 3 K-Grip/ 1 Ray of Revelation. Still not sure if I like it.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
depends on how prepared you'd like to be for miracles match up. With other good miracle haters in board, e.g. choke, titan, etc. you could. However, going with less than 3 will make it painful against RIP in any deck.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Today I won a 51 tournament in Milan with this list (mini blue-splash for Academy Ruins):
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tropical Island
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Dark Depths
2 Primeval Titan
Tomorrow I'll write a report and my impressions on the blue splash! Good night
Nice job, Morte! Looking forward to your report.
Also congrats to David Long and Ralph Betesh!
Hope you guys post a little report as well.
Here we are! Report from MLL 7 in Milan on March 1st, 2015. It was my first tournament experience with the deck, I just tested for a few hours with my friends, the most of my knowledge of the deck comes from the awesome primer of this thread and the video reports included. Really a great job.
In my meta Miracles is probably the most popular deck and especially the deck of choice of many of the strongest players. Combo, mostly ANT and sometimes S&T, are present but much less popular; same for Burn, even if some months ago I faced Burn twice in the same tournament. Fair decks are very popular with all the usual archetypes of Delver decks, Elves, BUG Shardless, D&T etc.
The idea behind my tuning was to mostly keep David Long's fast combo route but to have more diversified answers against complex matchups. I added the Academy Ruins plan with a minimal pack of 1 Academy Ruins, 1 Engineered Explosives and 1 Tropical island. I cut 1 Taiga for 1 Tropical Island in order to keep the same amount ofsources, 1 Ghost Quarter for 1 Academy Ruins, as both are colorless lands with an ability sometimes not very useful, and 1 Maze of Ith for 1 Engineered Explosives: both are not mana sources, are situational answers, and anyway I'm still keeping 3 Mazes. So, I tried not to unbalance the general equilibrium of the deck in order to keep its strength substantially unaltered (the question is, is it also an improvement?)
The list:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Academy Ruins
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Dark Depths
2 Primeval Titan
I wanted to leverage the Ruins plan with the sideboard, so I added some artifacts in the form of a Zuran Orb, since i considered probable to face Burn, the versatile Pithing Needle and the usual combination of Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void. I cut Thorn of Amethyst to make room, with the rationale that Ruins gives me more capability to keep my sphere effect and that anyway the main plan is dodging ANT (ehm). Lastly, I added a 2 Primeval Titan as my B-plan against hate and silver bullet against S&T.
Now let's go with the report! 51 players for 6 rounds of Swiss + top 8.
ROUND 1: GBr Nic Fit
G1: he deploys a couple of Veteran Explorers while I found the combo. I think my main effort here was not to play Tabernacle, really an easy matchup.
Sideboard: something like
+2 Primeval Titan (I was fearing Surgical Extraction on a dredged piece of the combo)
+4 Krosan Grip (I think I always sided in all my KG after G1)
+1 Dark Depths (more speed less control, see the plan to cut all Maze of Iths below)
-2 Manabond (often my first choice when choosing how to make room for the sideboard)
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (detrimental for Veteran Explorer, useless if Nic Fit is able to go late game)
-1 Glacial Chasm (useless)
-3 Maze of Ith (I want to be much faster than the beaters of this slow deck)
G2: he succeeds in Therapying away my Exploration and plays a Needle on Thespian's Stage, but he can't threaten me before I Grip his Needle EOT, deploy the combo and win.
1-0-0
ROUND 2: Jund
G1: He starts of Thoughseize into my Engineered Explosives. His Deathrite Shaman removes my first Life from the Loam and he let me discard some cards with Hymn to Tourach and Liliana while he's beating with a Tarmogoyf, but I naturally draw another Loam and his deck has no answers to the combo after I removed his Wasteland.
Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
G2: He keeps a bad start with a Grove of the Burnwillows, a Wasteland and a couple of Shamans. Totally useless because I have Exploration and the combo in hand for a turn 2 20/20.
2-0-0
ROUND 3: BUG Shardless
G1: I have a modest hand of Manabond, Gamble and many lands. I open with Manabond go, turn 2 Gamble into Life from the Loam and I start deploying a stupid amount of lands. But, it takes time for me to finish the combo while his beating me with two 5/6 Goyfs (my dredged Engineered Explosives was pumping them another +1/+1). When he's attacking me for lethal I have a Maze of Ith and the combo ready, but for some reason I don't want to create the token and block the second goyf and I pick up my cards! Sorry guys! At the end of the match oppo will ask me what the heck:-)
Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
G2: My revenge is terrible with an opening hand of Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam. He plays a Wasteland on my Dark Depths only to see a Crop Rotation for another one as an answer and he can do nothing else.
G3: He forces my Exploration but fails to find real hate. I pass with 3 mana + Thespian's Stage and a Crop Rotation in hand, thinking to dig for a Punishing Fire for the Baleful Strix he played the turn before. But I don't need it, he attacks me! Maybe an example of fair play after my misplay in G1;-) I crop into Depths and kill him next turn.
3-0-0
ROUND 4: Mono Red Goblins
G1: His start is not exciting and I calmly Punishing Fire the Goblin Chieftain before killing him.
Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle (Vial into Stingscourger)
-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
-1 Tranquil Thicket
G2: I can't block his Goblin Lackey into Goblin Ringleader. I have Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows ready for his Magus of the Moon, but sadly the Ringleader sends 2 of them on the bottom of his deck and he draws no other hate before it's too late. He told me he switched Blood Moon and Pithing Needle for Magus of the Moon and Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker because more suited against the meta. I think I'm the only Lands player in the room in fact. Super sad!
4-0-0
ROUND 5: URw Delver
We are the only two players at 4-0-0 and there are 6 turns in total, so we ID.
4-0-1
ROUND 6: UWr Miracle
He calculates the rating and his sure to be in with a draw, so we ID again.
4-0-2
TOP 8:
UGw Infect (for people debating Infect in the Format & Article Discussion forum: yes he was successfully running Swords to Plowshares + cool sideboard options)
RG Lands (me)
BUG Shardless
URw Delver
UWr Miracles
MOST (I suppose few of you have heard about it - I'm explaining more later)
BUG Shardless
Stoneblade? I'm not 100% sure, but it wasn't something I was fearing.
So, I think the only matchup I'd like to avoid is MOST, since I have no idea how to fight it properly. And obviously... I'm paired with MOST
SEMIFINALS: MOST
So let's introduce what is MOST. The acronym means Merieke-Opposition-Survival-Tradewind, where Merieke is the most popular legend of the game, Merieke Ri Berit, Opposition I think is not played any more, Survival has been replaced by Fauna Shaman and Tradewind is the old school hero Tradewind Rider. It plays a horrible GWub manabase of like 15 lands, with some forests, a lot of mana dorks, Green Sun's Zenith and a lot of utility creatures. We have an Italian thread here, Google translate should help you. In practise, it seems shit but it's actually very strong if you can run it properly, because it has answers to everything. Also the 4-5 players in the world playing it use to customize a lot their toolboxes, so it's hard to exactly predict what they could do. I have one only certainty: it's a small-creatures based deck with a fragile manabase, I have to attack it as much as I can and not let it setup it's Merieke-Tradewind-Venser-Sower-whatever engine or I'll have no out.
G1: I have a higher rating and I'm starting with a hones Mox + Loam. He setups Mother of Runes + Quirion Ranger before I can Punishing Fire or Wasteland anything (all his lands are forests so he can bounce them with the Ranger), and then Fauna Shaman into Meddling Mage. But my last Loam before his Mage founds The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, he must sacrifice something, I have triple waste and he scoops.
Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle (he has a lot of nasty activated abilities)
+1 Chalice of the Void (he has a lot of one drops)
+1 Dark Depths (I need to be fast)
-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
-3 Maze of Ith (if he's at the point where he can attack me, I have lost)
G3: He starts of Birds of Paradise. I have a good start with an opening of Mox, Exploration, Loam, Grip, Depths and some lands. Turn 2 he exiles my Loam with Rest in Peace, plays again Quirion Ranger, activates her and plays Fauna Shaman. In my turn 2, I could Grip his RIP but I don't need it: I deploy the combo and pass with other 2 mana open. Turn 3 he thinks a lot. He discards Squee with Shaman and he can search everything, but he can generate 4 mana only during his turn since he requires his land drop, so he can't go for Venser. He chooses and plays Tradewind Rider. His plan is to untap Birds of Paradise with Quirion Ranger in my turn and block the 20/20, then the next turn he has an active Tradewind Rider. He passes and I generate the 20/20.
In my turn I untap, and then I Punishing Fire his poor Birds of Paradise
Now he's obliged to block Marit Lage with the Rider, but then he has not enough mana left to assemble another answer next turn, so he shakes my hand.
In top 4 we split the prizes.
So! Very funny tournament, I dodged the bad matchups all day like a pro (a couple of ANT were close to enter top 8 in round 5, one scooped to Miracles, one could not race Infect). The question is, how good is the Ruins splash?
It's hard to comment since I substantially never drawed it. When I had to tutor, I always tutored for the combo. The only time I drew Engineered Explosives oppo Thoughseized it, apart from that all I got from it was giving +1/+1 to some goyfs. Anyway, in almost all matchups Engineered Explosives would have been a great tool. It's mass removal against many decks including complicated matchups like D&T, and it's a very flexible removal, my only maindeck removal for enchantments and artifacts, in theory we could be able to destroy Jace too. So, I'd say Engineered Explosives it's the piece of the "triplet" which convinced me the most.
Academy Ruins is not totally terrible alone as a colorless mana source, for sure it's been worse than the Ghost Quarter it replaced in my list when I drew it during this tournament. But Explosive recursion is often game over alone.
Tropical Island never annoyed me, the only time when I had it and I didn't have red for the Gamble I wished to play next turn I drew a Mox and I had another land in hand, so it never hurt me in these 11 tournament games - no a statistical evidence yet... My honest feedback is that naturally assembling Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives is not very probable, and Tropical Island is only useful in that case and only if you don't have any Mox. And, at that point, or you already have it in play, or you should tutor or fetch for it (I only play 3 fetchlands ATM).
In conclusion, at the moment I suggest you to look at David Long's list before going to a tournament with the Ruins splash! But personally I'll go on testing it, I cannot stop after an almost-perfect win
Lands by David Long
2nd @ SCG Baltimore March 1, 20154 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Dark DepthsSideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Seismic Assault
4 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
Just a couple of comments about David's list:
- He kept the fast combo plan (all tutors, 6 enchantment acceleration, 4 Stages + 3 Depths main, 4th Depths in side) and I totally agree with him. I almost always planned to combo ASAP and I almost always succeed in comboing between turn 2 and turn 5
- He switched Karakas and Bojuka Bog, Bog main and Karakas in side. Probably correct in my meta too.
- He's fine with 2 Taiga, like me (but he has 4 fetchlands)
- He's fine with 3 Maze of Ith, like me
- He cut Ghost Quarter for better stuff, like me
- He's using the space for a 2nd Tranquil Thicket and a full set of Punishing Fire
- Sideboard:
- he's going for a very straight plan instead of versatility: no Zuran Orb/Pithing Needle but 7 mana lock artifacts (if we fight ANT let's fight seriously)
- full set of Grips (totally agree)
- mandatory Karakas
- 4th Depth for faster combo plan
- 2 B-plan sideboard cards (I agree, one is luckster), he prefers Seismic Assault over Titan. It's easier to play against Moon effects but you don't have silver bullets against S&T. I should analyze where the meta is going
Thank you for reading guys, let's go on improving this amazing deck!
Congrats to all! I'm still not convinced about the U-splash, and you just summed up al my doubts, Morte!
Also, I would love to read reports of David Long and Ralph Betesh. I like how they both just cut the crap and went for the all-in.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
+1! (Blue splash not exciting, need more David Long and Rakph Betesh!) I suppose I posted my reply right while you were writing, my tournament report is above your post
Jup, so I had to edit
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
I'm especially interested in feedback about sideboarding:
- Outside of the obvious matchup tuning, I usually board in all Grips, I board out the Manabonds and, if the opponent attacks with creatures but is much slower then how I expect to be, I board out Glacial Chasm and some Maze of Ith. Do you agree?
- What B-plan wincon do you prefer? Seismic Assault, Primeval Titan, other? Why?
- I also would like other opinions about when siding in Seismic Assault / Primeval Titan (always when we're facing Moon or Rest in Peace, only if we see Surgical Extraction / Extirpate, etc.)
- How do you board against Elves? Do you board in Sphere effects?
- Do you agree with the sideboard choices in my report?
- Do you prefer a straight forward sideboard plan focused on the main issues or do you value versatility more?
Would running living wish over gamble solve these problems?
Even though it's slower and lets the opponent know what you are doing, it helps you vs extirpate type cards and you can also get your primeval titan. And because your already in the colours, you could also put goblin sharpshooter vs green mana dorks. Even an acidic slime vs blood moon. I think it would give the deck better G1's versus tough matchups. But yes not being able to get loam with it is pretty bad.
Hi, Morte. Congratulations with a good finish! I'll try to answer some of your questions.
1. I would not go all in with 4 Krosan Grips unless you are 100% sure they find the targets. More or less agreed about CHasm and Mazes.
2. I prefer both. I side Assault as an extra creature removal against such decks as Elves and DnT, and both Titan and Assault when I expect heavy hate or long games.
3. Assault is not sided if you expect Surgical Extraction, otherwise see 2.
4. Recently I've sent the Elves matchup write up to Dice. Hope he inserts it in the primer soon. My SB plan is:
Side in: All Sphere of resistance, All Chalice of the Void, Seismic Assault, Dark Depths (if there's space)
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Karakas, 1-3 Maze of Ith, 1 Tranquil Thicket, 1 Manabond (I prefer to leave 1 as a Gamble target)
5. I do not agree with 4 Krosan Grips against Jund. Were you 100% sure you would face Pithing Needle in game 2? Still, you had EE as an answer.
6. Versatility is good when you do not know what to expect. Otherwise a straight plan is prefered. Usually you have 1 chance to gamble for a card, the rest of the game you loam and the chance to naturally draw those versatile singletones is low, even with a cycling Tranquil Thicket.
And my 5 rubles about the blue splash. I would recommend to start with a classic build and then decide about a splash. I play classic and I think the blue splash is not necessary. The worst thing about that is that you loose some really good utility lands for including Academy Ruins and EE. First of all, I mean Ghost Quarter, an irreplaceable land against Miracles. Also before blue I would go black for SB Abrupt Decays, but even that is an extreme measure.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
All new additions to the primer (Like Elves and new lists as well as Patrick's links) go up when I get out of bed tomorrow.
Just got home from Legacy, 4-0 against Miracles, Infect, DnT and ANT. (That last match is becoming a ritual.) I was playing an adapted splash list and I won a game against DnT with a single shot EE. Outside of a timely top deck, the only other time I used it was to play it against Infect but not blow it. I killed him before I was ever in any risk. So far I have loved it when I have seen it and I am thinking of running two, but it's not yet run its course in testing and I might give up on this little experiment later.
I like the strengths it brings to the long game, I am not sure it is it worth it though. To this point I have not been punished for running it so I shall continue. If I was to go into a large event tomorrow though, I feel like I would run a more standard list.
Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
Spells
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
Enchantments
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
Mana Lands
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Mana Denial
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Combo
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
Draw
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
Utility
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
As I am sure you can see, I blindly stole and adapted the sideboard from Morte. In my meta Choke is more effective than Titan and I did not regret the choice. I also learnt an interesting trick where if you play a Chasm, Rotate it in response to its trigger, you can find a land and sac it while keeping all you other lands in play. This proved handy as I needed to keep my Mana sources available for next turn and I rotated into the missing combo piece, saced it and Loamed it next turn. I saw the play from my opening hand, I just had to check with a Judge first to make sure it would work how I hoped it would. It does and it's handy even though I am sure it will almost never come up.
Highlight of the night, getting paired against Omnishow and then getting a repair called and going up against DnT instead. Better to be lucky...
Last edited by Dice_Box; 03-03-2015 at 04:30 PM.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Well, that's a weird interaction, but if a judge says it works.
LOL
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Well done Dice! I'm interested in a report of your ANT and Miracles matches. Did you miss Ghost Quarter against Miracles? Are you satisfied with your 3-1 split of Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge? How's been Ancient Grudge in general?
Thank you very much door, precious support here. Can you share your current sideboard and list?
I noticed that both winning lists of SCG Baltimore ran no Ghost Quarter, but it is possible that Miracles is less popular in US than in Europe, or that the straight fast-combo plan makes it not relevant anyway if you're never going into a grindy game. Also, both lists cut down Maze of Ith and Taiga (to 3 and 2 respectively) for a full set of Punishing Fire (good with the rise of Deathrite Shaman) and minimum 2 or 3 Tranquil Thicket (N.B. only Tranquil Thicket, never Horizon Canopy with its land drop cost). Those highly focused lists did well in a quite diversified meta, looking at the SCG Baltimore top 16, proving that's a robust choice. What do you think?
After some testing I found that there is an issue with a color mana in this build - Specially if you want to loam + cycle + loam, which mean you need GGG, maybe it's because of my play style (more controlish then fast combo out - probably because of experience of older version of lands like U/G with Intuition/EE/Slaver lock) if anyone tried Riftstone portal - in U/G it was one of the solutions to problems which colored mana ?
Adding old tip/trick:
If opponent save lands with fetchlands (not cracked) and you have rishadan port online - just tap fetchland their eot - they will be forced to crack then, or lose them by wasteland.
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