Sure!Originally Posted by Morte
Main deck 61 cards:
1 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Riftstone Portal
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
Sideboard:
1 Dark Depths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Choke
1 Seismic Assault
1 Zuran Orb
I am currently happy with the list. Would only add the 4th Sphere if I had to play a GP tomorrow. Very little of combo decks in my local meta. However, the last tournament went awful, only 4 points per 4 rounds... Still not perfect with the deck.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
What is the point of Seismic Assault in the SB? It seems good against death and taxes and other fair decks but aren't we already favored enough main board? I know it's also useful against miracles but it's so difficult to resolve against them.
First of all, congrats to all who brought thoses nice results; it's nice to see this deck claim his place in the DTB section! (also, awesome Primer!)
Then quick questions:
1/ Considering the light U-splash list, and thus, a list who is able to play Zuran Orb. How has it been for you guys? And in which M-U do you side it in (burn and UR Delver, but i don't see other deck) ?
2/ In all versions playing Seismic Assault alongside Titan, how strong could it be against Miracle as an extra wincon that's doesn't fear hate g2/3?
Thanks in advance!
edit: cross-post with Krion. ^^
Zuran Orb is our only answer to Price of Progress outside Glacial Chasm, sure, I'd side it in against ANT too. 6-10 more potential life could gain a useful amount of time.
I have the same question. door can you give your feedback? It seems that in many matchups, like Miracles, you can side in both at the same time, for example S&T often sides in Blood Moon too. Generally speaking, Seismic Assault seems more popular (see SCG Baltimore lists), but why exactly?
D&T has a lot of powerful answers to our plans, as extensively explained in the primer, where it is ranked "even to unfavorable". Don't underestimate it. About Seismic Assault, I'm still investigating about its proper use, for sure you should consider it as our best B-plan in case of Blood Moon. Indeed it's not easy to generatein normal conditions, but conveniently the dreadful Moon effects make it very easy to cast (unlike Titan, which would require something like double Mox or Mox + Forest). Once you resolve Assault you go out from oblivion and gain a clock, and if you have a Mox or Forest to produce
and an active Loam you virtually propose 6 damages per turn, which is not bad at all. Also don't forget that your Gambles are active even if you only have red mana. I'm very interested in this topic, thoughts?
Last edited by Morte; 03-04-2015 at 03:09 PM.
OK lets see how much of this I can remember. I might have to start taking notes.
Miracles: (I start I believe)
I do not know what he was on, I remember what I had clearly enough though.
Game one:
Wasteland, Wasteland, Depths, Stage, Gamble, Exploration and I think the last one was Maze.
Me: Waste go.
Him: He plays a fetch, goes for a basic Island, plays out a Top and pases.
Me: Waste go.
Him: Plays a fetch, passes.
Me: I still have not drawn a coloured mana source, I play the Stage and pass.
Him: He plays a Tarn, cracks it, in response I make a copy of it with stage and he then plays out another top.
Me:I finally draw a fetch, play it, play Exploration, drop a Depths, pass.
Him: He draws, taps two of his lands for a Counterbalance and passes.
Me: I draw, drop a Port, drop another land I do not remember, pass.
Him: He draws, again has no mana, passes. I port his one basic Plains and punch him in the mouth for 20.
Out:
3 Maze
3 Fire
1 Tabernacle
1 Wasteland
In:
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
Game two.
I remember very little of this game other than two things, One, having a Pithing Needle in your opening hand is good and them not having Force is better. Oh and being a total lucksack. That helps too.
I do not remember the play by play, What I do remember is that he went turn one Top, I respond with a Pithing Needle. His answer "Well that sucks." told he he had no countermagic. I then play out a Mox and pass, on my next turn I Draw and Loam back the cards, he plays a Counterbalance. I will not Dredge this game, only draw from now on. A choice that I thought was best. Since my next three draws where in order: Exploration, Choke, Port. I think I am a total lucksack and he gave up the game soon after.
Infect:
I had a blast here. I will see how much I can remember, but it was great fun. This person I was playing against is still building his deck. He is a much older man that owns a lot of really old cards, so you get this strange mix of things you would think he should have but does not, and things you would wonder how anyone found it and he just had it at home.
I know what I am against, I look at my opening hand and just laugh. I have never seen a mix like this before and I love it.
Mox, Mox, Mox, Wasteland, Gamble, Loam, Grove.
What a hand. I mean really, look at that.
Him: He goes first and drops an infect creature.
Me: Mox, Mox, Loam, Mox, Play the Grove, Gamble for Punishing Fire, pass.
Him: Land, Attack, buff, hit me for 7. (Ouch)
Me: Loam, tap Grove, return Fire, kill the creature, game really. I have a wasteland lock and Punishing set up.
Out:
1 Manabond
In:
1 Chalice
Game two
Lets see if I can remember my opening hand.
Exploration, Chasm, Loam, Stage, Rotation, Wasteland, Forest
Me: Ok so this is the tricky one. I draw EE, I went turn one Forest into Exploration and Wasteland.
Him: Forest pass. (Slow hand I guess)
Me: Draw a fetch, play the fetch, play the chasm, rotate the Chasm, find Depths, sac depths to Chasm, Loam, pass.
Him, Kiln Fiend, pass.
Me: WTF? Play out the Chasm, Waste him, Loam, Pass.
Him: Draw, buff, attacks me, goes to write down damage, I tap the top of the Chasm, he passes.
Me: I am not sure what happens next but I remember that I ended up with EE on two, then I made the Witch and killed him a turn or two later.
DnT: Against pandaman
I do not remember the first game, I just know I won it. The second game I was looking to lose, he had Aven Mindcensor and a Mirran Crusader equipped with a SoFI. I was on a ton of life thanks to Swords, so I could take another 3 hits, but I really had no outs since he had Reliced by grave before. I top decked EE, dropped it on 3 and prayed he did not have a revoker, he did not. I popped it the next turn and held on to draw that game. This is the one time all night EE had an impact.
AnT:
Game one. Yea. Lets just say I am on the play game two.
Out:
3 Punishing Fire
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
In:
1 Zuran Orb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
Game two.
Sphere into Sphere wins this game. I am willing to say it was a very lucky draw not so much still that won me this.
Game three:
Ok, so here is the question. You have no Mox, multiple Land, Sphere, CotV and some other things, what of those two options do you play first? Chalice or Sphere. I played out the Chalice on two, but I do not know if that is right. He nearly comboed out with two drops.
He started, Probe, probe, fetch (15). Then he Pondered and passed.
I play land, it is all I can do. I cross my fingers and pass.
He does some more pondering, passes after what I swear is about 3 minutes and me asking him not to slow play.
I play Chalice, I do not know if Sphere was not the better option, but I know he has Chain of Vapor as a possible out so I made the call.
He needs to empty his hand, so he casts Surgical paying Life (countered), and then after his fetches, plays a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor and Ad Nauseam. He is on 11 life and kills himself.
I still wonder if I made the right call. It was close.
Did you miss Ghost Quarter against Miracles?
No, because I was a total luck sac. I think over time though, yes I would have. Choke does help remove the pressure of not having Quarter though.
Are you satisfied with your 3-1 split of Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge?
Yes, very. I am even happier with it now I have a main deck removal card.
How's been Ancient Grudge in general?
Very strong. I have had games were Gambling for it has meant no risk whatsoever and that has been very useful. Also milling into it is strong too. Since DnT and artifact grave hate are common locally, I am happy to have it at hand.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
first of all, my position is that 4 gambles allow to play singletons after board. Yes, there's always a risk to get the tutored card discarded, but it's the philosophy of the deck with the resulting pros and cons compared to intuition lands. Second, in general cards like Titan and Assault are sided in when you expect long games with less loaming and more drawing. The longer the game goes, the more chances you have to find/topdeck the card, the less countermagic your opponent has left. The rest is about what matchups you expect and how many slots you have in SB for an alternate win condition. Sometimes I side in Seismic Assault not as an extra win con, but more as an extra creature removal (Elves, DnT, Maverick, Infect and sometimes Goblins, Merfolk, some delver decks). Assault is a good SB card against Blood Moon decks (Painter, Dragon Stompy), while the Titan is not. Both are good against Miracles, both are hard to counter with Counterbalance. In vacuum, the Titan seems a bit more powerful allowing to do much more in a single turn, however, sometimes Miracles (and UR delver) can play Blood Moon after SB. Besides, it's always good that your opponent does not expect the other card. This is how I justify the 1-1 split between Primeval Titan and Seismic Assault.
When is it worse than playing just 2 Titans in SB? It's when you strictly need a Titan and you want to raise a chance to naturally draw it. There are not so many matchups, when it is so important. I can name 12-posts, Sneak Attack and may be Nic Fit among them, though I am not so sure. I do not see much of these decks nowadays.
Would I play 2 Assaults? It's a hard question, but I think, no. I would have to push on having 3 red mana in every game, knowing that I have 2 Assaults in the deck. It should be a very special metagame to make me do that. I prefer more freedom in games with an ability to gamble for a single Assault when it is relevant or get it later. As for Elves and DnT, they are winnable with Elves being easier, but you can never have enough removal against them. Both decks can change a situation upside down in a single turn out of nothing. I never feel safe against them.
I hope, my thinking is clear, but I'm open for a discussion. I might be mistaken somewhere.
2 Dice_Box
It's a good idea for finding a Taiga this way, but actually you could not do that. Sacrificing the fetch is a part of the activation cost, so it's already in a graveyard when you are just thinking about making copy of it.Him: He plays a Tarn, cracks it, in response I make a copy of it with stage and he then plays out another top.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
How did the cast a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor into Ad Nauseam when there was a Chalice on 2?
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
I suspect he meant Chalice X=1, paying 2 mana, since he later mentions countering Surgical.
Could you tell us what "some other things" were in your starting hand? It's important whether you had a Crop Rotation and a green source or not, and perhaps combo pieces, Waste, etc.
In my mind, the first order of business is not to die, and that means getting a hate piece onto the board ASAP. Their biggest chance to kill you before you untap for turn two probably involves artifact mana. Much as I'd like to have my Chalice on 1 or 2, with a slow hand on the draw I think I'd put it at 0 and hope to survive long enough to drop Sphere. The reason I asked about Crop Rotation is so you could get Bojuka Bog and either kill their PiF route or simply hose the threshold for Cabal Ritual -- considering that's the other big mana source besides LED (which you've already stopped through Chalice at 0).
So in general, to clarify. Do you Gamble for Assault, Titan, Spheres and Krosan Grip?
In testing I always gambled for Grip vs. pesky enchantments and I never had to discard the tutored card (I guess I'm a lucksack), so that was funny.
Also: how highly do you prioritize controlling the board? I guess vs White decks you need Control first because of STP etc. & vs. non-white you go for a quick 20/20.
In testing it was hard to decide imo, especially when I tested vs Sneak Show. If I make the 20/20 now I could steal the game, but what if they win on their turn? Maybe I should get a Karakas instead? The thing is, a lot of the time you can't wait on the Crop Rotation because of Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm etc. or it's the same vs like DnT/Aven Mindcensor.
There are definitely interesting lines of play with this deck.
How do you feel about Color Screw? The deck has only a few sources, 4 Grove/2 Taiga/1 Forest/3 Fetch/4 Mox = 14 sources
I thought about adding the 4th Fetch and 3rd Taiga and cut karakas/g.quarter and some spell maybe. Especially useful when you board into Assaults.
@ Alexeezay; I Gamble for the card needed, so yes for Assault, K-Grip or Primetime. Usually I try to fill my hand with lands through Loam, thus having a better chance keeping the card.
The first time I played this deck I was eager to combo out as soon as possible. I've learned to play it slow, focusing on the control first. Don't know if it's the best route, but it gives me the feeling I understand and see the different routes better. Of course, I will combo if I know I can.
Speaking of knowing when to combo, what went wrong during this game? Or was it just bad luck?. I would like to hear your opinion, perhaps we think alike.
Also, you have acces to more colored mana, but it's slow: copying lands with Stage, Tranquil Thicket and Horizon Canopy. But, because of the way I like to play the deck it's good enough if the situations presents itself.
Last edited by Chatto; 03-06-2015 at 06:16 AM.
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Like Chatto says, I think with this deck you should (almost) always prioritize control, especially when you don't know what you're playing against. And while playing control, you're opportunisticly looking for or actively shaping the right moment to combo. There are quite some scenario's where you're opponent can handle your token, like swords, but also wasteland versus sorceryspeed removal (Liliana or Jace).
Thing is, creating the token sets you back two lands, and that's fine when you know your opponent has no answers or you have loam (and an accelerant) available. But if you don't, you might have lost the game.
Controlling the board also comes in different forms. Some decks loose to Grove/Pfire, others can be wastelocked, some are best kept at bay with mazes and Tabernacle, and some can be dealt with through a quick combo. You'll have to invest in these gameplans with crop rotation and gamble, so identifying your opponent and knowing which gameplan is the strongest, is very important. D&T for example isn't very vulnerable to the combo or manadenial, but is vulnerable to Punishing Fires. Patriot has a shaky manabase and is a slower delvervariant, so here a manadenialplan is very good. Generally, setting up a loam with an accelerant will dredge you into all of these plans, but sometimes you should keep hands with a very specific gameplan.
Usually crop rotation is a good thing to hold on to. It's about the only card that interacts with the stack, so wait for your opponent's play to see what you want to croprotate for. If you really need the Karakas to stop you from loosing, you should get it. If not, hold on to it for an opportunity to combo first. Don't fear the softcounters because you should have the mana available for activating Thespian's Stage.
I think 4 Grove/2 Taiga/1 Forest/3 Fetch/4 Mox (not counting thickets) is very tight, and that an additional fetch/taiga/Canopy is preferable, at least this how I experience it. Having loam + exploration in your openinghand but no green source is very frustrating ...
Good call. Missed that.
@Alexeezay
I always control before I kill. I have had games where I have had the kill open to me for 3 turns in a row and choose to prioritise their mana first. You want to leave them without options. Sometimes you only get to make one token, one creature, keeping her alive matters more than winning 3 turns sooner. Also, not to be an ass, but it is not exactly unfavorable to make a game go slightly longer sometimes.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Interesting video, nice hearing comments from the opponent's point of view!
Game 1 he shouldn't have cast the Pfire over making the token. Julian would have had 3 green mana, no additional landdrops and no untapped elves, and I don't see a scenario how to combo out for Elves at that point (unless perhaps with a crop rotation for Cradle, but I don't think he played crops) (Edit: casting glimpse, quirion ranger and nettle sentinel could start a chain). One other thing I also noticed later in the game was him casting his Pfires in response in Julian's turn, but this allowed Julian to play a Cradle and tap for an additional mana. Burning the heritage druid during his turn would probably have been better.
Game 2 he was manascrewed, and he only had mox, port, waste to begin with. He probably should have kept on recurring Pfires instead of dropping the sphere, as it hurt him way more than the Elves, especially after he set himself back a landdrop by wasting a cradle.
But it's also hard to say without knowing the other cards in hand. What's your opinion?
Last edited by Rivfader; 03-06-2015 at 02:01 PM.
I agree with you. Game 2 he didn't foresee Julian's Cradle, but he's been too impulsive in playing its piece of hate. Going on recurring Punishing Fire for a turn or two and ensuring to have a plan after playing Sphere of Resistance would have been more robust, while he definitely should have removed Heritage Druid and the Bayou in his turn, before letting Julian use them in his upkeep to pay for Tabernacle.
Game 1 he just did a bad mistake. The probability of Elves to answer a turn 2 Marit Lage are negligible, he should have just gone off and win. It's not always correct to "control first". Many decks have few or no outs to the combo, or can win quickly, and comboing fast is evidently the best strategy. But also versus decks with answers, sometimes, the fast route should not be excluded a priori. You should consider how much your disruptive power outclasses their capability to find more answers. Suppose you're playing vs. Miracles. You could go for a turn 3 combo but you wait because you want to leave them with no white mana, maybe because you have Ghost Quarter recursion. In the meantime they sees cards with top and have time to use cantrips to find lands, Counterbalance, Swords/Terminus, and setup the best combination to stop you. Or, just consider the game 1 of the video. Maybe the plan of the Lands player was to kill all Julian's creatures, but Julian was able to deploy an army of elves even if under Punishing Fire recursion. The examples are many. Many decks have the capability to setup a board difficult for us if we give them enough time. There is no blind optimal choice between the control or fast combo strategy, it strictly depends on the scenario.
Greetings!
I've been reading through the different primers here and on MTGsalvation and I just have a question about sideboard set ups for larger events where the meta could be anything. I will be going to a 300-400 person event next weekend and I'm having a difficult time deciding on a sideboard set up. Top 28 prizes all include some form of black bordered German dual lands and I do love me some German lands.
Right now the sideboard is;
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Seismic Assault
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dark Depths
I'd really like a Chalice of the void but I don't really know how effective a one of that I can't tutor for or get back from the yard will actually be but wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on sideboarding for an unknown meta.
Another card is Zuran orb because Price of progress is just brutal if I can't get rid of some lands in response but this suffers from the same thing as Chalice of the void or really any non-land permanent.
Choke is mainly to assist with the Miracles match up but I don't know how many other potential match-ups it's good against.
The 6 sphere affects seem to me to just be too much, but I don't know how prevalent combo will be but I've had just 4 before and never really thought I'd have liked more, but I haven't played hundreds of games yet so it's completely possible that I just haven't played enough to know what I want.
The 4th dark depths I usually forgo but I have noticed that sometimes I would just like to be able to side in the 4th so the combo becomes easier to just draw into.
Seismic Assault isn't going anywhere, I've only gotten it out twice but both times it won me the game. Though I have reservations about running a second copy.
Krosan Grip used to only be a 3 of but far too many times did I need one sooner rather than later and a 4th could help with that.
Karakas, well, it's pretty self explanatory. I used to run it main but kept siding it out so now it's in the side just in case.
Pithing needle is really versatile and can often buy me a few turns that I need and even completely ruin my opp's initial game plan if I choose properly.
If it will help here is the main deck, it's pretty standard;
Lands (35)
3 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
Instants (7)
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
Sorcery (8)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond
Enchantments(6)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration
Well, game one he just had to go for it and game two he took a different path and made some poor choices regarding which Elf to burn. I think we both had roughly the same idea, Rivfader. The reason I think this vid is interesting, is because of what Morte says: you have to be able to shift along a game from one strategy to another
Hi Nikolai004, regarding your SB; it looks good to me. Pretty straightforward and standard. Regarding sphere-effects: you could do with less if combo isn't dominant. Just one remark: of course you can tutor for your one-off's, just use Gamble. How else would you be able to get the other one-offs? Now getting them back is a whole other scenario (one that some of us have been exploring with a light U-splash)
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Have been wanting to play lands for a while and I finally purchased that Tabernacle.
First time playing the deck and took it to a local IQ. I was totally fried from not sleeping for two days and working a full shift prior to the tournament. So my results were:
0-1 Miracles
2-1 Dredge
2-0 Goblins
2-0 Dredge
2-1 Sneak & Show
Made top eight and went
2-1 UWR delver
2-1 UWR delver
2-1 Esper Deathblade
So I ended up winning, the top eight matchups definitely fell in my favor. Between being new with the deck and a zombie after round 4 I made tons of mistakes. I want to get peoples' opinions on the Sneak & Show matchup.
Painful but not unwinable. They run enough non basics you can still punish them but in all honesty it is one of those games that when testing against, I would focus more on post sideboard games because they give you a far better chance of winning.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I'd have to second Dice_Box sentiment. Unlike omnitell the sneak and show variant is winnable but will require tight play and being able to manage your spells and mana properly.
I'm pretty sure winning against omnitell is almost impossible. I'd compare it to miracles beating 12 post. Kind of 95-5 in their favor.
2-2 tonight. Word to the wise, don't lend Painter to a friend and then play lands...
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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