I mean, this is all matchup dependent. People are assuming I just YOLO for the combo vs. any opponent which is obviously not the case or I'd be terrible at this game. However, there are plenty of decks where going for it early will win you games that could become iffy if your opponent is given time. Agree to disagree seems like the thing to do.
Lord of the Chalice
Originally Posted by Julian23
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
That's definitely true, you might combo yourself to death sometimes. However, usually it's just swords and wasteland that screw your combo game 1, and a bit experienced player knows how to deal with that. Those cards are also played in fair decks and we are already well positioned against them. If you run 4 depths in your 75, I don't see why you wouldn't start with 4 maindeck copies, as it gives you a better shot at racing bad matchups (where you don't have time to loam into your stuff). This deck is pretty unfavored against some decks, and it is such a sweet feeling to steal game one nonetheless :)
Those new wastes looks sweet!
Regarding depths, automatic four of. I play urborg to allow it to tap for mana. In bad matchups, the 4th depths is a winning card. Depths is also inevitability. We play depths and they have to respect what will happen next turn.
Here are my pet cards: http://imgur.com/a/b4z1q
Last edited by Cfetchcaviar; 12-03-2015 at 12:20 AM.
indeed.
i got to play this deck 2 times. first time i played w/ 3 depths, and got 2 draws. (sometimes, it is hard to resolve a gamble or a crop =/)
but w/ 4 depths, indeed i got to combo kill way better. last night i got 3 combo kills T2. (playing a 8-man)
so, for now, i guess 4 depths is the way to go.
i thought about riftstone, but i guess it is stronger in the jund shell, since they got entomb.
The draws are a function or your inexperience with the deck, not playing 3 Depths. As you gain more experience with the deck you will have fewer draws.
♀
I think the difference between 3 and 4 Depths comes down to this question: Combo or Control?
Personally I am a control player. Lands, MUD, Miracles, Thopter Blade, Painter, these are the kinds of decks I play around with. (Infect on the side and sometimes Elves) From my view point, that Depths, a card that does exactly nothing on its own, is a card I could better use as a Bog, Quarter, Karakas or Tabernacle.
The idea of playing a card like Urborg or Portal to make it useful to me is a double hit. Now I am losing that Bog, Quarter or Tabernacle AND a land slot to make my choice of another otherwise dead card more effective. That stinks. Sure, I sometimes will make my Witch faster, but the gains are not worth (to me) the costs at that point. I would sooner go to 2 Depths main if I needed another Control piece in the main then I would go to 4.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
The other thing about dropping all of the utility lands (Bog, Quarter, Karakas) is that when you don't have access to them - you'll REALLY miss them in matchups where they're relevant.
Also, I used to run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in Lands for some time but after a while I came to the opinion that it's quite poor unless you're going deep with something like Raven's Crime or Worm Harvest. Allowing a deck like Miracles to tap their fetch lands to spin the top and creature-based decks to pay for Tabernacle with fetch lands is really rough for you.
The one extra Depths is just a fringe difference, but I value the comboaspect of this deck quite high. Like Chatto said, it has to do with playstyle and being proactive rather than reactive. I believe (that's subjective ofcourse) that a more combostreamlined maindeck wins me more games than the addition of extra silverbullets would. The combo can win you the game against any opponent, silverbullets can only prevent you from loosing versus some matchups (but ultimately don't win you the game, although granted some silverbullets are almost a win versus some decks). In the end, winning is more important than controlling the game, as long as you know the deck well enough to prevent yourself from fizzling and setting yourself back into a loosing position.
4 Depths is for me comparable to the 4 copies of Loam and Pfire, you only need one but you pack four because you want chances as high as possible to get a hold of one. Ofcourse 2 Depths in your openerhand sucks, but actually 2 loams or 2 Pfire in the opener aren't optimal either. It is the nature of a deck that draws a large part of its consistency in 4-offs, making it more likely to dredge into them or have them in the opener.
This is actually not true. Instead of tapping fetches for mana under urborg, your opponent might as well have fetched for a nonbasic, because it exposes him to wasteland just the same.
Last edited by Rivfader; 11-01-2015 at 11:01 AM.
If you're under a Counterbalanace lock they don't need to play around Wasteland. When your only outs are to get them to break their 3 top by fetching or to lock down all White Sources and go for the combo - allowing them to eot spin top with a fetch is miserable. I know the Lands/Miracles matchup better than any other decks in mtg.
What is the best way to interact with Miracles? Nowadays the deck runs lot of basics (like 5 island and 2 plains) and the wasteland lock is not as utile as with other MU...
Last tournament I just draw with a miracle deck (that cause me bot to enter the T8), I win the first game, but second he plays 2 blood moon (I'm expecting only one) but the game is too long and I just want to win (or die obviously) in short time...I will never go to turns every time I meet miracles
Yea you are right, but, not meaning to be a nitpicker here, this is a very particular scenario in a particular matchup (counterlock in Miracle matchup), in comparison to what you posted earlier (and even here it is conditional, in having a wasteland on our battlefield or not, during the EOT tapping).
It's not just against Miracles. Let's say you're playing against RUG Delver. You have no Exploration in play, are on a quick clock and staring down a Nimble Mongoose. Your route to victory is a Tabernacle/Wasteland lock. With Urborg in play you effectively have to double Wasteland them without the aid of Rishadan Ports if they keep on playing fetches. I know it sounds like another extreme corner case scenario and a lot of lesser opponents won't even catch that they can tap their fetch lands for mana. But honestly, I've playtested with Urborg for quite some time and these weird situations kept on coming up (especially in fair creature matchups) where Tabernacle should have been doing a lot more board control then it was doing in conjunction with Urborg.
Honestly, I don't see it. If he taps a fetch under Urborg (as a Tabernaclepayment, or anything else), his fetch gets wasted. If he doesn't tap the fetch, well then you'd need double waste for this fetch regardless if there's Urborg on the table or not.
Sorry, I didn’t explain that too well. Basically, you don’t want to be using your resources having to Wasteland fetch lands as opposed to actual lands - especially in tight games and especially without the ability to cheat land drops.
Well im sorry but you didnt explain it well this time either, because your statement simply isn't correct. If your opponent taps a fetch to pay tabernacle, then you get to waste it. If he doesn't tap the fetch, you'd need double waste with or without urborg.
So please correct me in a simple rational argumentation, or pm me with some elaborate gamestates, because this discussion is probably getting cloggy.
I'll try to help here - correct me if I am wrong, but what he is getting at is RUG delver, for example, plays 18 lands. 10 tap for mana (4 wasteland, 3 trop, 3 volcanic). Once you destroy these lands they are 100% locked out. With Urborg, they have 8 fetch lands that now can tap for mana to play out of a tabernacle/wasteland lock. Point is it gives them 8 more outs.
So I am watching the replay of the Modern SCG event right now and something odd came up. According to Gerry Thomson, Chris Anderson played a single Koth of the Hammer in his Lands build. It's not on the site though so... I mean it's interesting. Still not much of a step up from just being dead to a Moon.
RUG has exactly 3 cards they can use that mana with. Force, Daze and Gofy. Giving them colourless is not exactly a big deal. Wastelands are close to dead lands for them mana wise.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
If the greatest asset to the riftstone is to combo faster, wouldn't an ancient tomb be better in its place? Previously tomb was used in the sb to give you 9 ways to turn 1 a sphere but it also allows you to combo with 1 stage 1 depths 1 forest and a crop rotation. I've played lands for over 4 years to a fair amount of success, and usually play very controlling. This is the ghost quarter spot for me and I don't see it as necessary since the combo, and it will also give you the consistency to play turn one sphere post board. Also turn two choke/3 sphere vs miracles.
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Also I don't like 4 fetches/3 fetchables. I've been playing the one canopy in the fourth fetch spot for some time.
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Hi RSTein, in addition to what Dicebox just said, your opponent should use his fetch to protect his manabase from wasteland when he doesn't need the mana. Tapping a fetch for mana under Urborg, is exactly the same as fetching for a nonbasic in terms of vulnerability to wasteland. And now I promise this is the last time I post about this :)
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