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Thread: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

  1. #481
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    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Yes TsumiBand.

  2. #482
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    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by maritlage View Post
    This does not work. Mainly do to the fact that you can in response to something like swords to plowshares you just sac the minister to the exploit trigger. The exploit mechanic does not care if the creature is on the field upon resolution only if the exploit cost was payed. Now there maybe a circumstance where in with the trigger on the stack i just let you kill my exploit creature and then sac a creature to the exploit trigger for some reason but that escapes me at the moment on what that situation maybe.
    It works.
    You can't just decide to satisfy the Exploit cost by sacrificing a creature when I point removal at it. Exploit uses a trigger that uses the stack like anything else. The sacrifice happens upon resolution and only at that time. It is the same deal as Standstill (gets sacrificed upon resolution of a trigger). Note that the text about what happens from Exploit is on a different line. This is important. The creature must be on the battlefield when the sacrifice resolves to Exploit something because that part is an independent trigger. It does not even go on the stack until the first trigger resolves, and that has not happened until after it is tilling the soil from StP.
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  3. #483

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It works.
    You can't just decide to satisfy the Exploit cost by sacrificing a creature when I point removal at it. Exploit uses a trigger that uses the stack like anything else. The sacrifice happens upon resolution and only at that time. It is the same deal as Standstill (gets sacrificed upon resolution of a trigger). Note that the text about what happens from Exploit is on a different line. This is important. The creature must be on the battlefield when the sacrifice resolves to Exploit something because that part is an independent trigger. It does not even go on the stack until the first trigger resolves, and that has not happened until after it is tilling the soil from StP.
    To clarify this a bit for people...

    An activated ability like this could not be stopped with removal...

    "Sacrifice this: Do a thing."

    ... because, in that case, the sacrifice is a COST and is paid by the person who wants to activate it as part of putting the ability on the stack. If you try to bolt it, they get priority and can now pay the cost. (Barring Split Second shenanigans).

    Exploit is not written that way. Exploit has two independent* triggered abilities...

    "When this enters the battlefield, do a thing."
    "If you do a thing, do this other thing."

    So when Golden Shower Crow or whatever else enters the battlefield, a triggered ability goes HAI I AM ON THE STACK and you then get an option to retain priority or not. If you dont, it goes to the opponent, who is now free to cast Lighting Bolt. Bolt resolves first, removing the creature from the battlefield.

    Then, Exploit resolves and announces "YOU MAY DO A THING." Now, you can still do a thing if you want. If you were trying to sac your own Bob to make sure you don't die from drawing Blightsteel Colossus next turn, then yea, you can still do that.

    However, if you do choose to Do A Thing, that will be the end of it. Why? Because the ability "If you do a thing, do this other thing" isn't around anymore - the creature died prematurely. Of course, any other cards that care about creatures getting sacrificed or dying or whatever will still see that you Did A Thing, but the particular Exploit card that got burned up isn't there to care.

    * - They might technically be "linked" since I think one trigger asks only if the first trigger resolved and did a thing. Not sure what the proper nomenclature is here.

  4. #484

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    To clarify this a bit for people...
    ...

    Exploit is not written that way. Exploit has two independent* triggered abilities...

    "When this enters the battlefield, do a thing."
    "If you do a thing, do this other thing."
    ...
    The template for removal-proof exploit would really be:

    "As ~ enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature."

  5. #485
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    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    There's a neat loop with the Aven they seem to have designed for standard:
    -Attack with Alesha and pay 3
    -Reanimate the crow. Sacrifice the Crow
    -Draw two

    Doubt it's legacy worthy, but this kind of trick is worth noting. Exploit is their attempt at a new version of Evoke by the by, but with no shenanigan possibilities (flicker) and less.. you know.. good.
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  6. #486
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    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    There's a neat loop with the Aven they seem to have designed for standard:
    -Attack with Alesha and pay 3
    -Reanimate the crow. Sacrifice the Crow
    -Draw two

    Doubt it's legacy worthy, but this kind of trick is worth noting. Exploit is their attempt at a new version of Evoke by the by, but with no shenanigan possibilities (flicker) and less.. you know.. good.
    Eeeehhh it's a kissing cousin of Evoke, right -- the idea with Evoke being that the creature doubled as a spell because it would self-sacrifice the moment it was in play. You can of course do the same with Exploit if need be, but also Exploit differs from Evoke because Evoke has both creatures with ETB triggers and Dies triggers so the "Evoke-ness" doesn't really change - the creature ETB and dies, and an effect is on the stack - whereas with Exploit, it's the chance to sac a crappy dude or a token or something for some greater effect.

    There's still plenty of shenan to igan, like Exploit + Athreos (in standard) or the aforementioned Alesha and there are, indeed, more than a few guys/spells in Standard which reanimate things with cmc < X and/or power < X, so there's some kind of weird under-the-radar thing that probably exists. Maybe it's already a deck, I have no idea, for as much as I enjoy Tarkir Block I haven't touched Standard for realsies since RtR.
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  7. #487
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    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    There's a neat loop with the Aven they seem to have designed for standard:
    -Attack with Alesha and pay 3
    -Reanimate the crow. Sacrifice the Crow
    -Draw two

    Doubt it's legacy worthy, but this kind of trick is worth noting. Exploit is their attempt at a new version of Evoke by the by, but with no shenanigan possibilities (flicker) and less.. you know.. good.
    It only costs 2 mana, not 3. I like the combo with Minister of Pain since it can sweep the board of opposing X/1s every turn. Sweep their board and grab a Master of Cruelity on the next turn ftw.

    @TsumiBand: Athreos and Alesha could probably go into the same deck, although that would probably end up pretty 3-drop+ heavy. Not sure if that is even too slow for Standard.

  8. #488

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Eeeehhh it's a kissing cousin of Evoke, right --....
    Or the love child of evoke and devour. Gurmag Drowner and Vulturous Aven seem like they could let you trade early drops into mid or late game value, but legacy is probably too sensitive to mana cost.

  9. #489

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Or the love child of evoke and devour. Gurmag Drowner and Vulturous Aven seem like they could let you trade early drops into mid or late game value, but legacy is probably too sensitive to mana cost.
    Aven seems good even though, as you mentioned, 4cc slots are competitive.
    Best to pair it with something like explorer or other graveyard triggers.
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  10. #490

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    Minister of Pain enters the battlefield.
    Minister of Pain's exploit trigger is put onto the stack.
    iamajellydonut smacks Minister of Pain with a Lightning Bolt.
    Minister of Pain is put into the graveyard and never sees its exploit trigger resolve and therefore will not have exploited a creature.
    I am guessing that Minister of Pain will still have exploited the creature. It will not be on the battlefield so the second triggered ability won't go on the stack.

    In other news, Strionic Resonator can probably help exploit creatures exploit twice.

  11. #491

    Re: [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread

    Quote Originally Posted by adm326 View Post
    I am guessing that Minister of Pain will still have exploited the creature. It will not be on the battlefield so the second triggered ability won't go on the stack.
    Yeah.

    1. Minister arrives. The "Sacrifice a creature if you want" trigger is on the stack.
    2. Bolt kills the Minister. Resolves. Minister dies.
    3. Minister's "Sacrifice a creature if you want" trigger resolves. You are free to sacrifice something if you want to. If you do, then, yes, Minister will have "exploited" something in a pedantic sense. Sure.

    HOWEVER...

    Nothing else happens. Minister is not around to SEE the exploiting happen. He's dead. Gone. His second triggered ability never does anything because he's not around to see the results of his action.

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