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Thread: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

  1. #21

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I'm going to build this list, it seems incredibly fragile in the sense that you can't afford to counter any of the million ways your board gets swept because you won't have countermagic for the next players who are going to cast something even more scary, but we'll see.

  2. #22

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Have you tried Call to Mind or a Time Spiral type effect?

  3. #23

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by xbento View Post
    Have you tried Call to Mind or a Time Spiral type effect?
    Call to Mind probably needs to have a spot in the deck. I've been thinking about adding it as a recursion package along with Deja Vu, Sage's Knowledge, Relearn, and Pull from the Deep. Call is clearly the best, but Pull is probably worth running as well because of the card advantage. The others may not pan out due to being narrow. It all needs testing.

    I ran Time Spiral and friends for a while and they are definitely quite splashy and have won me games. The deck doesn't really need them outside of corner scenarios, though, and they were eventually cut to bring down the average CMC of the deck to make it faster. I could definitely see running Time Spiral because it does so many things for just one card. You might look at adding Mind's Desire at that point because you could absolutely crush tables if you resolved them in the same turn.

  4. #24
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    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    So with the new changes, I'm thinking about making my deck more of a control deck as opposed to combo. I'm talking about 40 lands with more "mass removal." I'm also trying to make an optimal 1v1 build. I'll be back with lists.
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  5. #25

  6. #26

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by BBG|Scott-Spain View Post
    I want to play this in both multiplayer and Duel tournaments, so I'm trying to follow both ban lists. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    I have found that Talrand functions pretty optimally in a quasi-Threshold shell which allows you to not only easily take advantage of his Drake-spamming ability, but also see a larger than average portion of your deck to find answers to various board states. You are skewing more towards a Mono-Blue Control build so I'll make suggestions based on that.

    Discounting counterspells and removal, this is what looks to be your solid control core:


    Isochron Scepter
    Torpor Orb
    Vedalken Shackles


    I would work on beefing this up with more hardline stuff like Back to Basics, Propaganda, Invoke Prejudice, Land Equilibrium, and Mana Vortex. Enchantments can be difficult for some pods to deal with and these provide effects that are either entirely asymmetrical or can be easily exploited by your deck to be asymmetrical.

    I would also look at adding a beefier ramp package starting with Jace's Sanctum. Both modes of that card are extremely relevant, but knocking a mana off almost every spell you play is good enough.

    I have had some luck with Alhammarret's Archive boosting the power of my cantrips. It's a late game spell, but it does a lot of work if you can get it to stick.

    Finally, you probably need draw that is more powerful. Something along the lines of Rhystic Study and friends. Mystic Remora could work well and could even be bounced to reset the counters for additional draw.

    Sphinx of the Final Word seems to be an interesting card from the new set. It could be quite powerful as a Proteus Staff target.

  7. #27

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I have an updated Talrand, Sky Summoner list for anyone still playing this guy. I went through and tried to trim out the fat to make the deck function more consistently:

    26 Snow-Covered Island
    Flooded Strand
    Polluted Delta
    Misty Rainforest
    Scalding Tarn
    Riptide Laboratory
    Academy Ruins
    Reliquary Tower

    Jace’s Sanctum
    Mana Crypt
    Sol Ring
    Sapphire Medallion
    Extraplanar Lens
    Gauntlet of Power
    Caged Sun

    Sleight of Hand
    Serum Visions
    Ponder
    Preordain
    Thought Scour
    Whispers of the Muse
    Brainstorm
    Mystical Tutor
    Personal Tutor
    Anticipate
    Telling Time
    Merchant Scroll
    Impulse
    Muddle the Mixture
    Frantic Search
    Long-Term Plans
    Fabricate
    Intuition

    Oona’s Grace
    Keep Watch
    Stroke of Genius
    Blue Sun’s Zenith
    Fact or Fiction
    Coastal Piracy
    Bident of Thassa
    Gush
    Treasure Cruise
    Dig Through Time

    Call to Mind
    Relearn
    Pull from the Deep
    Opposition
    Alhammarret’s Archive

    Tidespout Tyrant
    Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
    Proteus Staff

    Time Warp
    Temporal Manipulation
    Capture of Jingzhou
    Walk the Aeons
    Temporal Mastery

    Pact of Negation
    Envelop
    Swan Song
    Negate
    Arcane Denial
    Counterspell
    Mana Drain
    Forbid
    Mindbreak Trap
    Cryptic Command
    Misdirection
    Force of Will

    Into the Roil
    Cyclonic Rift
    Boomerang
    Capsize
    Wipe Away
    Wash Out

    The average functional CMC (example: Mana Crypt costs 0 and makes 2 mana, so it’s fCMC is -2) of the deck is 2.95 which is pretty good for a non-combo deck. The ramp is pretty important which is why Extraplanar Lens has a spot. You generally have enough protection to be able to untap with it, but it’s important to read the board.

    The cantrip and draw package feels about right. Talrand obviously functions very well with these cards so they form the backbone of the deck. The more cards you see, the more likely you are to win the game.

    Time magic is still very good. The counterspell suite is up to 12 cards which has worked well. I kept in the best bounce spells because that’s really the only kind of removal we have available.

    I’ve found that the deck can leverage very limited resources into game wins. For example, simply having Talrand out, a mana doubler, and Capsize can equate to a win if played conservatively.

    It’s nice to have the recursion pieces in the deck as they function as additional time walks, removal, and draw so they are pretty much never dead.

    The weakest cards in the deck:

    Opposition: I’ve had trouble finding a consistent use for this card. It’s good, but you can generally control the board with the cards in your hand and use your creatures to attack to push through damage to end the game. There have been scenarios where it’s been effective, but it’s usually when I’m ahead in the game

    Alhammarret’s Archive: Without a doubt, this card is win-more, but it supercharges your cantrips and is really fun to play.

    Proteus Staff: This and the two fatties I play may not be necessary. I generally win with Drake damage.

    Everything else has tested well and I’d say I’m 90% happy with the deck.

  8. #28

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Hi Baumeister,

    What do you think of Runechanter's Pike in one of these slots that you're not satisfied?

    A lone Drake or even Talrand can do letal damage with it.

  9. #29

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Zzz678 View Post
    What do you think of Runechanter's Pike in one of these slots that you're not satisfied?

    A lone Drake or even Talrand can do letal damage with it.
    I see what you're trying to do and it's probably worth a test slot. My reservations are that it's not an instant or sorcery which have a higher than average impact with Talrand and that it doesn't really facilitate the deck to win along the path it wants to. However, the cost to get it in play isn't terrible and having the ability to end the game earlier than expected can be nice.

    I'll test it out and see how the card functions.

  10. #30

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I don't have the money to buy Capture of Jingzhou, do you think that another time magic like Temporal Trespass or Part the Waterveil can be a substitute to it ?

    Or it is better to add another cantrip/counterspell ?

  11. #31

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Zzz678 View Post
    I don't have the money to buy Capture of Jingzhou, do you think that another time magic like Temporal Trespass or Part the Waterveil can be a substitute to it ?

    Or it is better to add another cantrip/counterspell ?
    The short answer is yes.

    The deck wins by chaining time magic off draw triggers from Keep Watch, Coastal Piracy, and Bident of Thassa. Five iterations seems to be the sweet spot due to tutors, card draw, and cantrips so I simply picked the best five. I've thought about adding Temporal Trespass which is likely the next best time magic card but room is tight in the deck and I haven't really had a pressing need to do so.

  12. #32

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I tried Runechanter's Pike and it does not work well. It don't have synergy with delve mechanic, the graveyard suite and it is even worse with Temporal Trespass.

    I have problems with the fatties as I didn't have mana to cast it and wasn't able to return it to grimoire.

  13. #33

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Zzz678 View Post
    I tried Runechanter's Pike and it does not work well. It don't have synergy with delve mechanic, the graveyard suite and it is even worse with Temporal Trespass.
    That's the same conclusion I came to. Global pump like Gauntlet of Power is better because it adds about the same amount of damage while also supercharging your mana base.

    I have problems with the fatties as I didn't have mana to cast it and wasn't able to return it to grimoire.
    I'm not really sure where the "grimoire" is, but if you're having issues with the top end creatures, they can probably be cut. Sure, Tidespout Tyrant certainly wins games, but it's pretty much only when I'm ahead to begin with. The biggest issue we need to fix is fighting to catch up when you're behind and those cards don't really do anything to help that. Also, cutting Proteus Staff, Tidespout Tyrant, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur frees up spots for protection and removal which would be more useful for advancing your game plan.

  14. #34

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    That's the same conclusion I came to. Global pump like Gauntlet of Power is better because it adds about the same amount of damage while also supercharging your mana base.



    I'm not really sure where the "grimoire" is, but if you're having issues with the top end creatures, they can probably be cut. Sure, Tidespout Tyrant certainly wins games, but it's pretty much only when I'm ahead to begin with. The biggest issue we need to fix is fighting to catch up when you're behind and those cards don't really do anything to help that. Also, cutting Proteus Staff, Tidespout Tyrant, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur frees up spots for protection and removal which would be more useful for advancing your game plan.
    Maybe drop those three for Pongify, Unified Will, and Back to Basics?

    I run B2B and, while you can't tutor for it, with all the cantrips it can just straight up win some games.

  15. #35

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by rawburt View Post
    Maybe drop those three for Pongify, Unified Will, and Back to Basics?

    I run B2B and, while you can't tutor for it, with all the cantrips it can just straight up win some games.
    If I were to remove the Proteus Staff package, Temporal Trespass would be the first card to get a slot simply to bolster the time magic up to six for a little more consistency.

    Unified Will is good, but it's one of those cards that's better when you're ahead in the game. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum. I think Familiar's Ruse or Delay would be better simply because they are nearly always a hard counter. Delay probably gets the nod due to being extra good with time magic. Honestly though, I've been happy at 12 counterspells.

    I used to play Pongify and it's reprint, Rapid Hybridization and they worked, but they only hit creatures. I think I ended up liking Repeal more for the flexibility at the cost of being more expensive to play.

    Back to Basics probably needs a spot in the deck to form a prison core with Opposition. Good call.

  16. #36

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    If I were to remove the Proteus Staff package, Temporal Trespass would be the first card to get a slot simply to bolster the time magic up to six for a little more consistency.

    Unified Will is good, but it's one of those cards that's better when you're ahead in the game. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum. I think Familiar's Ruse or Delay would be better simply because they are nearly always a hard counter. Delay probably gets the nod due to being extra good with time magic. Honestly though, I've been happy at 12 counterspells.

    I used to play Pongify and it's reprint, Rapid Hybridization and they worked, but they only hit creatures. I think I ended up liking Repeal more for the flexibility at the cost of being more expensive to play.

    Back to Basics probably needs a spot in the deck to form a prison core with Opposition. Good call.
    I actually cut Opposition (before I added B2B) becuase it really only had niche applications. Let me know how testing the two together works.

  17. #37

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I added Back to Basics too, simple because it shuts down many decks.

    My concern with the remotion of Proteus package is that we will have only 1 win condition. The fatties sometimes are dead cards in hand as we can't put it back in the library. Jace TMS can solve this problem for us?

    In another way, If we remove Proteus package, maybe we can add some combo with Intuition.

  18. #38

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    I managed to test a few games this weekend with a slight change to the deck:

    - Proteus Staff
    - Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
    - Tidespout Tyrant

    + Back to Basics
    + Unsubstantiate
    + Delay

    The spoilers for the new set have been kind of frustrating. I understand the need to decrease the flexibility and power of the blue cards in recent sets so there wasn't much to pick from. There are actually quite a few cantrips and card draw spells, but they're all pretty terrible. Unsubstantiate seems like the best of the bunch.

    Back to Basics is obvious as a card that does a lot for a very small upfront cost. Delay merely satisfies my need for one more counter. I was very close to adding Temporal Trespass, but I just don't know if it's necessary. It's nice that there is a spot for it if it's needed later.

    Anyway, the games went well even though we are down to one win condition in the deck. Luckily, that condition is both mana efficient and highly resilient. I also can't remember the last time I won with Jin-Gitaxias or the Tyrant, so the cuts make sense. It brings the fCMC of the deck down even further and I have a smaller chance of drawing dead when it matters. Interestingly, with Proteus Staff gone, we could potentially add Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall for even more recursion. Coupled with Ghostly Flicker and time magic, that would enable an arbitrarily large number of consecutive turns. Of course, Flicker is basically dead with all the other cards in the deck.

    I managed to set up a rude Back to Basics/Opposition situation that essentially forced the other players to play at instant-speed. I think with Back to Basics in the deck, Opposition actually makes a lot of sense. Testing obviously needs to be done.

    I only drew Unsubstantiate once, but it was delightfully flexible. It's not a permanent solution, but it can buy you a turn against a wide variety of threats which is all this deck needs sometimes.

    I don't know if anyone else is running the card, but Alhammarret's Archive can be pretty unfair. I managed to ramp into it pretty early one game and I drew so many cards over the course of a few turns that it almost didn't matter what my opponents did. I still understand that it may be overkill, but it makes every single cantrip in the deck even more busted which is crazy. I believe the outright raw power it provides may be worth it.

  19. #39

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    What do you think of Aetherflux Reservoir?


  20. #40

    Re: [EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Zzz678 View Post
    What do you think of Aetherflux Reservoir?

    I definitely like this card because it looks like it would play well with this version of Talrand. I do have a few reservations, though.

    It's not an instant or sorcery. The deck is currently around 55% instants and sorceries which I think is probably as low as you want to go. I'd feel more comfortable at 60%, but there's tension in the power level of the cards you want to run. So it's a trade-off between enablers and engines.

    You need 151 life to kill a typical pod. I know it's an alternate win condition which is always good, I just don't know if it's good enough. The drake plan has been effective enough in every game I've played and I don't know if I need another win condition. The passive life gain is nice though.

    Reservoir benefits from having a deck with a lot of instants so you can stack the triggers and gain extra life. I don't know if this deck has a high enough density to make it worthwhile. I also generally find myself casting only a couple of spells per turn at the most just to maintain tenuous control of the board. Cantrips are obviously great, but we only have a dozen or so of those.

    I will test the card when it comes out, probably in the spot where I have Alhammarrett's Archive. Off the top of my head though, I imagine this card is better in a control shell with Oloro, Ageless Ascetic where you are generating life gain all the time from your general.

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