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Thread: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

  1. #21
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    If opponents keep asking for Oracle text because you're playing a 99% obscure deck, there are time considerations. You might get some wins/losses/draws that you didn't mean to, and opponents didn't mean to, because the gameplay is slowed down.

    I'll also echo the sentiment that old English cards are terrible for being up-to-date, and that consulting Oracle is always best. Makes me wish you could append a marker to cards that are dramatically different, for those that wish to exhibit sportsmanship.

    Having said that, as a pimp-in-training, I can safely say that if you can read your cards, you're doing it wrong
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Plague Sliver View Post
    Having said that, as a pimp-in-training, I can safely say that if you can read your cards, you're doing it wrong
    I'll just take off my glasses while playing. That'll save me some money :P
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  3. #23

    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    , I've never seen anyone actually asking about intentionally buying foreign cards to gain an advantage. Personally, I play with Japanese cards, but I can read Japanese (and there's no way I'd play with cards I couldn't read). I play in Japan so it's not like I'm really running into players who can't read my cards, anyway.
    What I've heard Thopter foundry was quite popular in chinese due to thopters being blue (dunno why it was relevant), Tabernacle fx is destroy not sacrifice, Ruric Thar has to attack (who remembers outside of elves players), there is someone bolting a Mongoose once in a while., a lot of small things on cards... if you played some weird shit like xyz charm I'm quite sure most people have no idea of the other modes after 5 mins even if they read the oracle

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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    I play fully foreign Lands, so in order to save time, it’s become second nature for me to state both the full oracle and then explain what it will actually do in practice. Can almost hear myself talking about The Tabernacle, Dark Depths and Glacial Chasm in my sleep.

    Sometimes I even help them pick the correct card when they have to choose from my Intuition pile, because if they can’t figure it out within half a minute, usually it means I’m gonna win anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If your deck is off the beaten track but not entirely out there, on the ball players will pick it up fast. Those who don't, well they were unlikely to be in with much of a go to start with.
    Pretty much sums it up accurately, you won’t be getting any advantages against a strong opponent, consequently it’s not scummy.

  5. #25
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I am in favor of players having prints of the cards they play in the local language's of the environment they are playing in. When I go to Japan for Legacy, I would take a full print off of all my cards in Japanese just to make life easier. Granted, at this point if you don't know what Lands is your a bit behind the times.
    If you do this at a tournament, be certain to only include the card itself in the print. Most such printouts will include the Oracle text with the print. And while every judge who shows such pages to players requesting them during matches allows them to see this, it is illegal for a player to do so on their own. It falls under the outside assistance category, since the chain of Oracle rulings, and often specific examples are also noted, and I have had friends get losses for doing so.
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  6. #26

    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I mean, let's not be too hasty here. I'm never coy with my opponent as to what a card does. I know the Oracle from memory for any card I'm playing, and if they ask, I always read the full text of the card, with the added clause, "If you're not sure, feel free to call the judge to get the oracle."

    It's just that when the cards aren't in English, sometimes if your opponent is not on their game, they forget special abilities of creatures, etc. That's just the same if you had an English Thalia and they forgot. Relying on the card text, especially in Legacy, isn't an excuse. Many cards have errata that is FAR different than written text, so players need to ask or learn it. If my opponent is not on top of their game and their sloppy or forgetful play turns into a fortuitous turn of events, wonderful for me. If not, I'm not heartbroken. I'm not looking to scum anyone. I'm looking to pimp.

    -Matt
    See, this is what I'm talking about right here.

    How many free wins against average players can you get in the Swiss just by running foreign language cards? And the corollary is - what's the downside (in terms of time lost, matches dragged out, bad karma, etc)?

    If I run a card they are unfamiliar with that has close-to-Oracle english text, and they make the correct decision based on that, BUT if I were playing the Japanese version of that card, and they make an assumption about its abilities and lose the game because of that assumption... maybe playing the foreign language card is worthwhile.

    Again - I'm not purposely misleading them - it's their responsibility to be up-to-date on the correct wording of all the cards they will likely run into - and furthermore, their responsibility to call a judge if they are unsure at any given moment.

    Obviously, really good players will not be so sloppy, so this tactic probably doesn't apply to the top-8 matchups or anything like that - but in the Swiss, sometimes you run into sloppy and/or mediocre players with decks that are *bad matchups* for your deck, and getting a free win against a bad matchup is always nice to have, isn't it?

  7. #27

    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    See, this is what I'm talking about right here.

    How many free wins against average players can you get in the Swiss just by running foreign language cards? And the corollary is - what's the downside (in terms of time lost, matches dragged out, bad karma, etc)?

    If I run a card they are unfamiliar with that has close-to-Oracle english text, and they make the correct decision based on that, BUT if I were playing the Japanese version of that card, and they make an assumption about its abilities and lose the game because of that assumption... maybe playing the foreign language card is worthwhile.

    Again - I'm not purposely misleading them - it's their responsibility to be up-to-date on the correct wording of all the cards they will likely run into - and furthermore, their responsibility to call a judge if they are unsure at any given moment.

    Obviously, really good players will not be so sloppy, so this tactic probably doesn't apply to the top-8 matchups or anything like that - but in the Swiss, sometimes you run into sloppy and/or mediocre players with decks that are *bad matchups* for your deck, and getting a free win against a bad matchup is always nice to have, isn't it?
    So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

    Is that illegal?
    Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?

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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    If you do this at a tournament, be certain to only include the card itself in the print. Most such printouts will include the Oracle text with the print. And while every judge who shows such pages to players requesting them during matches allows them to see this, it is illegal for a player to do so on their own. It falls under the outside assistance category, since the chain of Oracle rulings, and often specific examples are also noted, and I have had friends get losses for doing so.
    It would be a print of the card only, sleeved in a different colour sleeve to the ones I am using using a token as the back.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

    Is that illegal?
    Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?
    I'm no judge, but only telling your opponent half of a cards ability seems pretty sketchy.
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  10. #30

    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'm no judge, but only telling your opponent half of a cards ability seems pretty sketchy.
    I agree. I'm just trying to see if that's exactly what OP is asking, and if so, what others think.

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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

    Is that illegal?
    Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?
    Yeah, that's not okay. If they ask, you have to respond to them truthfully.
    You are welcome to refer to a judge, if you don't want to tell them yourself, but you cannot lie (or withhold information, which in this case is basically the same)

  12. #32
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    Yeah, that's not okay. If they ask, you have to respond to them truthfully.
    You are welcome to refer to a judge, if you don't want to tell them yourself, but you cannot lie (or withhold information, which in this case is basically the same)
    You can withhold information. If you say thalia is a 2/1 human that makes spells cost 1 more, that's fine.

    Oracle text is derived information. While you aren't allowed to lie about it, you do not have to tell the whole truth. Don't answer judge questions for which you do not know the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Tournament Rules
    The following rules govern player communication:
    •Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the
    type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
    •Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
    •Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
    •At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.
    Notice it only says free information has to be answered completely if asked by a player. Else you'd have to state every single aspect of a card should your opponent asks you.

    In your world, if you ask me what is that card and it's a grizzly bear, I'm getting in trouble for simply saying it's a 2/2. In your world I gotta say its 2/2 with no abilities that is creature-bear and is green and other details.

    Edit: more exhaustive: http://www.magic-league.com/article/...unication.html

    Toby Elliott on Player Communication Guide

    Basic information consists of publicly viewable information, the base characteristics of the cards in play (including choices made) and actions taken. Derived information is what you get when you put together all the basic information and your knowledge of the rules to form a picture of the game state.

    However, statements do not need to be exhaustive - honest answers with careful omissions or "non-answers" designed to misdirect opponents into making suboptimal - but not illegal - plays are acceptable.
    2nd Edit: Further reading: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...icle/20070911a
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    You can withhold information. If you say thalia is a 2/1 human that makes spells cost 1 more, that's fine.

    Oracle text is derived information. While you aren't allowed to lie about it, you do not have to tell the whole truth. Don't answer judge question for which you do not know the answer.



    Notice it only says free information has to be answered completely if asked by a player. Else you'd have to state every single aspect of a card should your opponent asks you.

    In your world, if you ask me what is that card and it's a grizzly bear, I'm getting in trouble for simply saying it's a 2/2. In your world I gotta say its 2/2 with no abilities that is creature-bear and is green and other details.

    Edit: more exhaustive: http://www.magic-league.com/article/...unication.html



    2nd Edit: Further reading: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...icle/20070911a
    Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

    It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

    *No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.

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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

    It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

    *No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.
    It is certainly bad sportsmanship.

    Why is the bear case not comBEARable? If I don't answer fully leaving nothing out and it becomes relevant, wouldn't I get in trouble?
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

    It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

    *No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.
    Why not? I'm playing foreigned-out bear tribal with the best bears in Magic, and I tell you my Forest Bear is a 2/2 when you ask. You decide to play Engineered Plague on Ape because, well just check out this sweet art:


    Is that unsporting to not say that my Forest Bear is a Bear?
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    I wouldn't ever not say Thalia doesn't have First Strike. I think that's scummy. If they don't remember after I told them it had first strike, tough beans.

    -Matt

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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
    There is no real advantage. But possibly a percieved advantage from insecure players.

    A player who legitimately doesn't know the precise wording and function of a card should call a judge. One who does not in those circumstances, probably wasn't going to do well anyway.

    Except for that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. That's like cheating.
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I wouldn't ever not say Thalia doesn't have First Strike. I think that's scummy. If they don't remember after I told them it had first strike, tough beans.

    -Matt
    Yeah, agreed. It's just not technically against the rules.
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    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmutant View Post
    Why not? I'm playing foreigned-out bear tribal with the best bears in Magic, and I tell you my Forest Bear is a 2/2 when you ask. You decide to play Engineered Plague on Ape because, well just check out this sweet art:


    Is that unsporting to not say that my Forest Bear is a Bear?
    Those scenarios aren't alike, however.

  20. #40

    Re: Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

    So I guess basically to answer the OP, yes you MAY get free wins or a slight edge against players who are unfamiliar with your cards if they are foreign, and you can even leave out key information if they ask you what your cards do. However, it's probably not the nicest thing to do--karma wise.

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