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Thread: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

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    March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

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    Hang onto your hats: we’re changing how tuck works for commanders.

    If your commander would go into the library or your hand, you may choose to put it into the command zone. It’s as simple as that. Just like with the graveyard, if you want it to go into the library/hand, you’re more than welcome to let it. Note that this is a replacement effect, but it can apply multiple times to the same event.

    There are four major points in how we arrived at this decision. None of them individually was the silver bullet; the combination of factors got us to where we ended up. In no particular order:

    1) We want to engender as positive an experience as we can for players. Nothing runs the feel-bads worse than having your commander unavailable to you for the whole game.

    2) The presence of tuck encourages players to play more tutors so that in case their commander gets sent to the library, they can get it back—exactly the opposite of what we want (namely, discouraging the over-representation of tutors).

    3) While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible.

    4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commander’s locationin the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).

    When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander—which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    I'm bummed about the change in the sense that I personally exploited the rules loophole since I put Cromat together.
    But this rules change has logic on its side in the sense that the intent was to always have access to your general and now that is possible.

    I am reminded of the rules change that neutered Clone's ability to kill generals. I look back on that as a positive change because clones shouldn't have been able to do that really... and I haven't noticed the game is less fun without that silly loophole.

  3. #3

    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    This change just feels bad on all levels to me, and I am typically the person that is getting targeted by the 'tuck effect' type spells.

    1) We want to engender as positive an experience as we can for players. Nothing runs the feel-bads worse than having your commander unavailable to you for the whole game.

    -I don't agree with this on the basis that decks still do things regardless of what the commander is or does. While most decks won't work optimally under those conditions, I think many can and still function in different ways without their general. I think that is part of the fun in building a resilient and unique deck. It's the customization of a deck from the perspective of the color pie, the meta you play in, and the support system you build into the deck.

    2) The presence of tuck encourages players to play more tutors so that in case their commander gets sent to the library, they can get it back—exactly the opposite of what we want (namely, discouraging the over-representation of tutors).

    -False, I was playing those tutors anyways. Instead of getting card X, I picked up my General instead. Inferring that people wouldn't play those cards because they don't have to worry about their general ending up in their library is misleading at worst and probably just a poor conclusion to draw from whatever conversation the rules committee had at best.

    3) While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible.

    -Also not true. And for what it's worth, the color pie exists for a reason, other colors get things that blue and white don't have access to, and that's ok.

    4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commander’s location in the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).

    -Like....?

    When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander—which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.

    -Whatever, so obscure who gives a shit, even if I disagree. If your general is face down, it's a 2/2 with no creature type, name, or any other identifying characteristics.

    When I look at this update on the whole, they shoehorned in a new set of rules, at the cost of cards not playing how they read. That seems like a mistake all the way around.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Honestly, this change seems like a mistake to me.

    Realistically, there are 2 reasons you'd tuck someone's general:

    1. The general is problematic (e.g. Prossh, Zur, Maelstrom Wanderer etc.) or otherwise difficult to deal with (e.g. Theros block gods), thus limiting the amount of realistic ways to ensure that it stays good and dead.

    2. You're being "that guy" and doing it because you can.

    I suppose there is also a subset of incidental general tucking where you fire off a Hallowed Burial or whatever to hit the Maelstrom Wanderer and also get my general as collateral damage...but whatever.

    My point here is that by attempting to keep things "feel good", they've made already powerful commanders even more powerful. This, in turn, makes the more "fair" commanders worse because now it's even harder to keep up with the big guys. I would be less dubious about the change if "banned as a commander" were still a thing, but in what universe does this change not lead to more banned cards because their power as a general is now too strong?

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    I'm pretty ambivalent on it.

    First a tangent: Tuck is stupid. AFAICT tuck started seeing more print at a playable cost as creatures in general became more resilient and more effectively costed, to the point where people were questioning whether or not traditional draw-go control could even exist anymore. It answers durdly guys with indestructible and/or hexproof; let us not forget that Terminus was printed in the same block as Geist of Saint Traft. I can only imagine that these insanely resilient creatures all just slipped under the radar a few at a time until someone looked around and said, "hey woah woah wait a minute, creature decks are almost as un-interactive as those old control decks now. How fix?" It exists for a clear reason, but I kind of despise the reasons that prompted tuck in the first place. I don't just mean like Plow Under type stuff, I do mean like Hallowed Burial/Condemn/all those things.

    As for the subject at hand - I don't mind the idea that a deck should 'always' have access to its commander. The busted commanders that have no problem being recast are more annoying now, sure - but there are just as many decks that don't care if they ever actually cast their commander to win, and honestly I've always found those decks to be more abhorrent than the Scion of the Durp-Dragon insta-kill type. This is probably vicious anecdote but the majority of players I've seen that actually stroll in with 5-color Storm decks or whatever are honestly just there to troll the format with its typical lack of countermagic just to showcase how "stupid" EDH is. It's like, yeah man, great jorb you did there, you broke the format by turning a Vintage deck into an EDH deck, nobody cares, gosh how do you get dressed in the morning with a dick that big, etc etc...

    So yeah, I guess stuff like Theros Gods become a bigger PITA and things that were already unfair might get a little worse. FTR while I'm talking about dumb things, it does make things really dumb to 'track' your commander as a 2/2 face-down creature, I don't know why they would even bother with that unless it totally screws with the commander rules that are already in place. And yeah there are some printings like Chaos Warp and Unexpectedly Absent that suddenly suck a bit more - but those are bad in EDH already because spot removal is generally dumb unless you're 1v1ing it.

    I dunno it could just be that I'm not giving it the right read, I spent the last 24 hours with a nasty stomach bug and it's dicking with my brain power. On the whole though this feels like a neutral change to me.
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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I'm pretty ambivalent on it. *SNIP* On the whole though this feels like a neutral change to me.
    I agree. My flagship deck runs 5 tuck effects (Terminus, Hallowed Burial, Hinder, Spell Crumple, and Bant Charm). Of them, I will probably only cut Bant Charm because of the new rules. The rest still do what I want them to do most of the time. Again I am reminded of the legendary rule change and how I cut Phyrexian Metamorph as a result. No biggie, now the game is played as intended and a loophole is closed. French rules EDH has handled tuck effects this way for a while now.

    It is quite funny to see people's heads a'splode over at MtG Commander Forums:

    Rules Committee Should Disband
    More unnecessary changes
    What ways do we, the player base, have for repealing rule?

  7. #7

    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    I have actually played this ruling for a while as a house rule and it feels like a natural extension of the power of your commander. After a few games, it began to feel like the change that took place when clones were neutered. Yes, it sucks at first, but other cards fill the void that is created.

    Also, go buy your Ixidrons before they shoot up in price!

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Does this affect Tiny Leaders?
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
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    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
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    You have been kicked out of the game.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    I think this ruling is, in general, not great.

    That said, there are plenty of groups out there for whom this ruling is a godsend because the most prevalent use of tuck is, "Some asshole UW/x Control player tucked my Anax and Cymede because he's an asshole," and this change prevents those sorts of feel-bad moments. It's just a pity the rules committee adamantly refuses to actually balance the format competitively because the above situation has now been replaced with, "Some asshole Maelstrom Wanderer player roflstomped us and there was nothing we could do because we couldn't deal with Maelstrom Wanderer," which is feel bad in an entirely different way.

    I suspect there's going to be a lot more crying about busted generals now. Always having access to a specific card in your list sounds great until you realize how incredibly broken it is to always have access to a specific card in your list.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    "Some asshole UW/x Control player tucked my Anax and Cymede because he's an asshole."
    This change is keeping with their banning philosophy as far as I see. Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial were banned because they were cards that made casual players into dicks (whereas broken stuff like Lion's Eye Diamond and Hermit Druid were only ever used by dicks, mostly to play cutthroat games against other dicks). Hey! My Mimeoplasm deck runs both those cards...

    For example:
    Jimmy the Dick runs a cutthroat Derevi list, so Timmy and Johnny run Hinder and Hallowed Burial (respectively) to keep Jimmy the Dick from dominating the local store. Unfortunately Timmy and Johnny don't only play against Jimmy the Dick... Sally and Kyle have commander precons and play with Timmy and Johnny more often than Jimmy the Dick does, so they have to deal with getting their commanders tucked more often than Jimmy the Dick.

    Now Timmy and Johnny are dicks because of Jimmy the Dick. Sure Jimmy the Dick is going to win every game he plays now, but social pressure should solve that. I plan on being more vocal about not allowing decks that kill a pod in 4 or 5 turns in the games I play.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    I suspect social pressure will be the go-to solution now for broken commanders because I just can't see the rules committee going on a banning spree to handle those cards. I just hate refusing to play against people because it feels so juvenile.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    I just hate refusing to play against people because it feels so juvenile.
    Good point. But I'm talking about the guy who's deck consistently ends a 4 person pod by turn 4 or 5. If you can eliminate one player by turn 5, good on you! Maybe he deserved it. If I can't stop you by the time you get to me, let's shuffle up and try again, now it's 3 on 1.

    The games that go: sac Academy Rector to High Market, herp derp Omniscience, tutor, I win! on turn 4 are fun for no one.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Jesus Fuck just play LD though.

    Like seriously, they'll change the rules to make tuck suck but they just say "welp" when it comes to Geddon and friends. Dislike huge commanders, blow up they land
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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Good point. But I'm talking about the guy who's deck consistently ends a 4 person pod by turn 4 or 5. If you can eliminate one player by turn 5, good on you! Maybe he deserved it. If I can't stop you by the time you get to me, let's shuffle up and try again, now it's 3 on 1.

    The games that go: sac Academy Rector to High Market, herp derp Omniscience, tutor, I win! on turn 4 are fun for no one.
    My general way of dealing with this is to say, "Okay! Congrats. You won. Now we're going to play for second place." Winner McWinnerson then gets to sit there for the next 45 minutes to an hour or whatever watching the game and being bored while the rest of us enjoy ourselves. It's usually a pretty good way to send a message.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Tsumi, don't you know that LD is forbidden in EDH? Only Jimmy the Dick would play it, but he's far too occupied with his Vintage-into-EDH five-colors Druid combo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    My general way of dealing with this is to say, "Okay! Congrats. You won. Now we're going to play for second place." Winner McWinnerson then gets to sit there for the next 45 minutes to an hour or whatever watching the game and being bored while the rest of us enjoy ourselves. It's usually a pretty good way to send a message.
    I hope you're not against wins at all. Because sometimes it's exactly what the table needs, an instanto win out of nowhere that ends the stalemate.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I hope you're not against wins at all. Because sometimes it's exactly what the table needs, an instanto win out of nowhere that ends the stalemate.
    No, I just don't want the game to be over on turn four every time. If I want to win brutally I'd rather play a format with an actually reasonable banned list that's designed for competitive play.

    My ideal game length is probably in the neighborhood of 30-45 minutes. It's long enough that people can do cool things but not so long that it gets tedious.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    I suspect social pressure will be the go-to solution now for broken commanders because I just can't see the rules committee going on a banning spree to handle those cards. I just hate refusing to play against people because it feels so juvenile.
    The problem is some of the guys with the "broken" decks don't seem to get the hint - we had a guy show up at EDH night a couple weeks ago with his turn 3 Kozilek deck who couldn't fathom why everyone was blowing up his stuff and attacking him exclusively. Same deal with a different guy who resolves Iona naming a color 50% of the table is at least splashing who can't figure out why he's getting attacked - all he kept saying was "C'mon guys, everyone hates blue! Why are you attacking me?" Then Iona dies and he's rushing to find some way to reanimate it, because he needs to save us from ourselves or whatever.

    My point is that the "social contract" is effective if your group is constant. Anyone with reasonable observation skills can easily tell when his buddies are having a bad time, and adjust his deck and/or play accordingly. Once you add a new element to that group with a different idea of what's "fair" or "fun", the whole thing goes to hell. Things like Hinder were broad enough to deal with whatever your group thinks is "fair" while also keeping the random turn 3 Kozilek in check.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Jesus Fuck just play LD though.

    Like seriously, they'll change the rules to make tuck suck but they just say "welp" when it comes to Geddon and friends. Dislike huge commanders, blow up they land
    Isn't running out a 'geddon because that one guy has a Maelstrom Wanderer or whatever a bit like punishing the whole class because little Timmy was late this morning? I mean, you're not wrong - LD is a perfectly valid solution to the "problem" we're all whining about. I suppose this will spur me to actually use my Strip Mines and Wastelands for more than colorless mana on occasion.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    Isn't running out a 'geddon because that one guy has a Maelstrom Wanderer or whatever a bit like punishing the whole class because little Timmy was late this morning? I mean, you're not wrong - LD is a perfectly valid solution to the "problem" we're all whining about. I suppose this will spur me to actually use my Strip Mines and Wastelands for more than colorless mana on occasion.
    This one aspect of the 'gentleman's agreement' I have never gotten behind, and it is the primary reason why I have disliked certain bans from older times (namely giant Green things that get/blow up land) for the fact that people aren't willing to just accidentally the world. I play Kaalia of the Vast, in fact it was my firstest EDH deck and it is why I fell in love with the format - KotV is Goblin Lackey for giant fucking beatsticks! The obvious problem being that she is a candy-ass and dies to everything under the sun. So the obvious lines of keeping her around and making her stick are to get to 4 mana, start dropping fatties, and then being a cock and casting Bust or Geddon or Cataclysm or something. If I didn't play those spells that deck would be ass and could not offer anything over a longer game.

    It's true that a poorly timed Armageddon effect will prolong a game, but so does any "spell flailing", which is my least favorite attribute about PUGs; you get those randoms that just wanna cast dat Terminate, and so they target some random fucking thing of yours, even though there is no reason to do so except "I did something! I did something! Wheeeee" So yeah if you do that with your LD, then of course the game goes stale.

    I mean the RC is clear on excising things that aren't "sportsmanlike" as demonstrated by their rules changes from previous times including this one, so if they didn't honestly want some amount of LD around then they would ban the hard stuff. And it doesn't have to be all lands all the time; Wildfire is still a card, and it keeps people from topping out too quickly while also punishing a quick start with Green ramp spells. Impending Disaster is still a card for that matter; sure fine, Explosive Vegetation away, Maelstrom Durpener. Seems strong.

    And a lot of this doesn't even apply to more competitive tables, right - but that isn't the point. The point is, the earlier statements regarding "dicks play cards ABC, other guys play cards XYZ" is totally right, and that's really the motivator behind a lot of the question marks of the RC list - they're banning and changing rules in ways that appeal to all parties instead of trimming the fat by catering to one group. Ultimately, it pushes the little Venn diagram of cards that both groups play a little closer together, and so ultimately the 'little kids' have to start realizing that control is Not A Bad Thing, and that they should expect some lands to get blowed up from time to time in order to preserve some actual sanity. And for God's sake, casting
    your spells in the right order helps too.
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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    No, I just don't want the game to be over on turn four every time. If I want to win brutally I'd rather play a format with an actually reasonable banned list that's designed for competitive play.

    My ideal game length is probably in the neighborhood of 30-45 minutes. It's long enough that people can do cool things but not so long that it gets tedious.
    Then we can agree to agree.

    Thing is that an occasional combo is fine as long as it isn't the linear combo deck that wins 99% of time with the ever same play. I'd love to build a GW EDH full of small combos (like Melira-Primus-Altar, Mike/Trike, Rip+Helm, etc.) just for the fun of playing a combo deck in the least combo colors. In a 100-cards deck and with lots of interchangeable pieces, this might be different every time, moreover I guess it could be easily disrupted due to the fact of no protection included (ok, other than City of Solitude effects.)

    But I do understand why this is frowned upon and in fact I'd be extremely dishonest if I'd leave Legacy with its streamlined boring repetitive gaming only to defend the streamlined boring repetitive EDH decks.

    One memory I got in mind, though, is when we played a pentagram and we left a friend of us completely unchecked coz reasons... and he went like Demonic Tutor, Entomb, Eternal Witness, SotF, Vampiric and then killed us with infinite Shivan Hellkite, all this over a few turns (so it wasn't a "real" combo) and in context of an old-frame only EDH plus an extreme stalemate. "Congrats man, this was hilarious, brilliant, well-played and relieving!" was what could be heard all over the table.

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    Re: March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    It's true that a poorly timed Armageddon effect will prolong a game, but so does any "spell flailing", which is my least favorite attribute about PUGs; you get those randoms that just wanna cast dat Terminate, and so they target some random fucking thing of yours, even though there is no reason to do so except "I did something! I did something! Wheeeee" So yeah if you do that with your LD, then of course the game goes stale.
    "Spell flailing" is the perfect description for my most frequent complaint about the format. I can't tell you the number of times someone has killed my "scary" thing while the guy to my left has drawn some stupid amount of cards and has a dominant board position simply because "well, his guy has hexproof...and I wanted to do something...so yeah, kill your thing I guess". It's like the cardboard in their hand is on some sort of ticking clock or whatever and it'll blow up if they don't windmill it onto the table...but I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I mean the RC is clear on excising things that aren't "sportsmanlike" as demonstrated by their rules changes from previous times including this one, so if they didn't honestly want some amount of LD around then they would ban the hard stuff. And it doesn't have to be all lands all the time; Wildfire is still a card, and it keeps people from topping out too quickly while also punishing a quick start with Green ramp spells. Impending Disaster is still a card for that matter; sure fine, Explosive Vegetation away, Maelstrom Durpener. Seems strong.

    And a lot of this doesn't even apply to more competitive tables, right - but that isn't the point. The point is, the earlier statements regarding "dicks play cards ABC, other guys play cards XYZ" is totally right, and that's really the motivator behind a lot of the question marks of the RC list - they're banning and changing rules in ways that appeal to all parties instead of trimming the fat by catering to one group. Ultimately, it pushes the little Venn diagram of cards that both groups play a little closer together, and so ultimately the 'little kids' have to start realizing that control is Not A Bad Thing, and that they should expect some lands to get blowed up from time to time in order to preserve some actual sanity. And for God's sake, casting
    your spells in the right order helps too.
    The stigma and the salt from 'geddon is definitely real. Hell, I once had to sit through a 10 minute rant about how much of an asshole I was because I had the balls to disrupt someone's "combo" with an Obliterate and kill him 3 turns later with a fatty of my own. Apparently having the foresight to play a spell that neatly interacts with the otherwise untouchable as a win condition makes me a jerk or whatever...I guess I should stick to the usual 2 card combos like 99% of the rest of the world.

    Point is, I don't think that the RC is always acting with everyone's best interests at heart. This change in particular seems squarely out of left field, and addresses a "problem" that I personally have never seen. I'd feel the same way if they came out against LD, or Storm, or any other "feel bad" component of the game simply because some subset of the playerbase can't be arsed to figure out how to work around the cards that exist.

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