March 2015 Banned Announcement - Goodbye Tucking!

[Ace/Homebrew]

My general way of dealing with this is to say, "Okay! Congrats. You won. Now we're going to play for second place." Winner McWinnerson then gets to sit there for the next 45 minutes to an hour or whatever watching the game and being bored while the rest of us enjoy ourselves. It's usually a pretty good way to send a message.

I like this strategy and will adopt it.

On Combo-Win: BDP is correct, sometimes the game just needs to end. If a half hour has passed, anything is fair game. I wouldn't ever complain about a game winning combo requiring 4 or more cards. If it requires 3 cards and the game has gone on long enough, I'm good with it too!

I can finally combo off with Planeswalkers but it requires The Chain Veil, Rings of Brighthearth, big mana like Gilded Lotus or Xenagos, the Reveler, and an untapper like Tezzeret the Seeker, or Ral Zarek... Along with something that does damage like Sorin Markov or Ajani Vengeant. If I can assemble all that and you can't disrupt me, I deserve the win.

I'd feel the same way if they came out against LD, or Storm, or any other "feel bad" component of the game simply because some subset of the playerbase can't be arsed to figure out how to work around the cards that exist.

I think those feel-bads are safe. None of them directly involve your general.

[TsumiBand]

My general way of dealing with this is to say, "Okay! Congrats. You won. Now we're going to play for second place." Winner McWinnerson then gets to sit there for the next 45 minutes to an hour or whatever watching the game and being bored while the rest of us enjoy ourselves. It's usually a pretty good way to send a message.

+46

I like this approach. "urr you won, have a pizza trophy. rest of us play crds now kthx"

[Amon Amarth]

I don't know how to feel about this change.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Posting for completion's sake:

Tuck - An article by Sheldon Menery hosted at Starcitygames.com.

We believe this change will open opportunities for deckbuilders and players, not shut them down. I've been very happy to read over last several days folks saying things like "Now I feel like I can dust off that janky deck I've been wanting to play." I find they're more representative of our target player base than those who predict gloom and doom because of commander-tuck's disappearance. A few players have threatened that they're going to go out and build oppressive decks just to demonstrate how bad they think this change is. Although I suspect that's mostly wind, I'll argue that it's not the change or any card which makes oppression in this case, it's the player making a conscious choice to be oppressive. I've long said that it's not difficult to break this format. The secret is in not breaking it.

[Aggro_zombies]

One of the significant arguments for this change was that tuck (and bounce, although that's kind of a non-factor here since it's generally better for you for your commander to go into your hand instead of the command zone because then you won't have to pay the command tax) wasn't in line with going to exile and graveyard. Tuck and bounce worked one way; exile and graveyard worked differently. We thought it was worthwhile to provide consistency across the board.

Honestly, this is literally all they had to say about this change. All the other reasons they gave are weak or have obvious counterarguments, but this is a good, solid reason to make the change.

[TsumiBand]

I do sort of appreciate the fact that SM constantly reminds that the goal is not to hone the format in the same way as a typical Constructed format ban/restrict list. That person who builds Thraximundar-But-Actually-Storm-Combo-lolz EDH deck is always going to be "that guy", there's nothing you can do about that (except use Aggro_zombie's strategy of basically exiling the winner from the game and letting those poor plebes play to 2nd, boohoo for them who don't realize they aren't #1).

If Commander is fundamentally to be about experience crafting through deck building, then it follows therefore that any change which empowers more people to do that is positive. It's true that previously "bad" commanders are worth another look; I'm going to re-approach Skullbriar and give some consideration to other card choices in other decks now knowing that the commander can safely pop back to the command zone under virtually all circumstances.

I also like what he said about tutors in general, since they do seem to clash with the Highlander nature of the format:

We like to discourage the over-representation of tutors, believing that the singleton nature of the format is best enjoyed when you don't have the same kind of repeatability and regularity that you have in other Constructed formats. The whole idea of this format is to be different, not just a variant version of the same. I never wanted this format to be alt-Vintage, and as long as I'm part of the decision-making process, I'll try to keep that from happening. I get that some folks simply can't wrap their heads around that, that the only way they see things is to optimize their efficiency. That's just not the direction we want to head. We think the presence of tuck encourages players to play more tutors than they might otherwise so that in case their commander gets sent to the library, they can get it back-exactly the opposite of what we want. Some people have misinterpreted this as us thinking that the primary reason people play tutors is tuck. That's not the case at all. We considered it an additive/contributing factor, and a little extra discouragement is worth the effort.

Some folks have responded with "well, if you're so worried about tutors, then ban them all." This isn't sawing the board, this is sanding the cut. We're not panicky about tutors; this explanation was a nudge in the direction of getting players thinking about running them in great numbers. Discrete use of tutors is generally fine, but there definitely isn't a method of being objective about it. I can't tell you "two tutors is okay, but three isn't." My general rule, which is confessedly pretty broad, is don't tutor to just win, tutor to do something cool, deal with a threat, or to survive. I swear to you that I'm having more fun with the format the fewer tutors I play. I get that your mileage is certain to vary.

I don't necessarily envy the guy's position; he's got to try to moderate a format to work for a *lot* of different kinds of groups. We're accustomed to windmill-slammed control from the DCI; "Cards X, Y, and Z are banned in this format because Spike flat out owns this format and defines its legitimacy through and through, and Spike breaks those cards which break the format and so we removed them." EDH cannot ever actually do that, because it is for so many more people and aimed at a much different experience.

I had this talk with my LGS owner a little while ago; I know exactly what I'm doing when I go to the store and look for singles that say "Outlast" on them so I can build a new deck. I get it. I really do. It isn't 'real Abzan' like those decks with the $20-per-card mana fixers and $10 rhinoceroses and so on. I fucking know. I also fucking know that I'm building a deck that I think is going to be entertaining for me to play. Yes, Hardened Scales + Phantom Centaur is a fucking joke (but those centaurs are going to be HUGE, I don't even care). No, I'm not a moron who has no sense of real synergy - I'm just a guy who has had his relationship with the game change from trying to play higher tier Eternal stuff and then watching my community fall away, so I pivoted to playing with the guys at work and fueling up the roflcopter when it comes time to build a deck. I think I can play bad cards well, and I know what I'm doing, and that's the end of it.

I said that to say this - that I think, and I'm starting to think it more than previous, that the RC knows exactly what they are doing and are willing to leave the kinds of moderation people crave in EDH to its own members, in smaller and smaller affinity groups, precisely for this reason. That players know the game they want to play, and that players have a choice in signing on to play competitive Spike Magic, and that if a group of players get together and have some concept of that Magic they'd like to be playing and yet someone at the table insists on making life shitty by playing something contrary to that, it's a localized problem and not an issue that can be solved by edict from a foreign governing body. Spike was always going to break the game, lower the fundamental turn, decrease interactivity, win more. That's what Spike does. If that is the goal, then the rules are literally not the issue in this instance.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Honestly, this is literally all they had to say about this change. All the other reasons they gave are weak or have obvious counterarguments, but this is a good, solid reason to make the change.

Yes, that's it. I like this change.

I had this talk with my LGS owner a little while ago; I know exactly what I'm doing when I go to the store and look for singles that say "Outlast" on them so I can build a new deck. I get it. I really do. It isn't 'real Abzan' like those decks with the $20-per-card mana fixers and $10 rhinoceroses and so on. I fucking know. I also fucking know that I'm building a deck that I think is going to be entertaining for me to play. Yes, Hardened Scales + Phantom Centaur is a fucking joke (but those centaurs are going to be HUGE, I don't even care). No, I'm not a moron who has no sense of real synergy - I'm just a guy who has had his relationship with the game change from trying to play higher tier Eternal stuff and then watching my community fall away, so I pivoted to playing with the guys at work and fueling up the roflcopter when it comes time to build a deck. I think I can play bad cards well, and I know what I'm doing, and that's the end of it.

Tsumi, I'd love to meet you in person.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm going to re-approach Skullbriar and give some consideration to other card choices in other decks now knowing that the commander can safely pop back to the command zone under virtually all circumstances.

Skullbriar will still occasionally result in feel-bads if an opponent can get a -1/-1 counter on him.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm not a player of the format, so have just been reading this thread so people can tell me how to think. This last response from Sheldon sounds exactly like what I'd want it to be. They know shits as broken as you let it be, tutors are the best in singleton, there's no disputing that, but it's nice to see them try to push players away from it.

Anyway, I came here to ask, what do you guys think about EDH with a house-ruling of no tutors allowed? Including anything that may involve shuffling in general. I'm not against shuffling (though 100 card decks that are double sleeved do suck to shuffle if you do it every turn), I just have had mostly mediocre experiences with EDH in the past, usually because of power level concerns.

You guys probably know what I mean, you want to discourage the infinite turn combos, but how about the 2 card Mycosynth Lattice + Karn commander to blow up all your lands? The defense is always, "Well I only get that if the other opponent is using an oppressive strategy, and I don't have an infinite win combo in here." Sure, that's true, but if you have 50 ways to tutor up your "nuke all lands" combo then I don't want to play more than like 2 games against you, because you'll just wait until I'm in a winning state and then blow up everything. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love competitive magic, but EDH is not that, and never should be that.

Other thing I have against tutors is that we're playing highlander for a reason. I want to make a single deck with a lot of deckbuilding decisions and have like 500 different boardstates against other decks that do the same. I don't want to see, to use that example again, every turn 6 be Mycosynth Lattice + Karn. What's the point of highlander if you're going to do that anyway.

So, EDH Gurus, what do you think? Does no tutor restriction make for what I want to happen? Or am I not seeing some glaring oversight?

Also, part two of the question, would it be less fun to just say 100 or 60 card highlander with no commanders at all? Or maybe "random rotating" commander that you need to have like 3 viable commanders in your deck and you randomly get one for each game.

[TsumiBand]

it's not so much the tutors that's the problem, it's the targets.

I mean fetchlands are tutors, but banning those would royally suck because mana fixing is crucial in three-color decks. SFM is a tutor, and unlike Black or Blue she is not just another in a sea of them in White and is super-narrow compared to like Mystical Teachings or whatnot.

So yeah if someone's taking the 2-card combo angle and winning the cheesedick key to the city, then the issue isn't the tutors right, it's their dumb MikeTrike or whatever. This is precisely why I removed the 2 card combos from my Sedris deck; the clear paths to victory were already defined and so it was just a question of which one was the best to kill the table with (Hellkite + DEN, MikeTrike, DENchron + BSZ, etc etc). By just removing the easy buttons and keeping the modest tutors I had in there, the deck already played so differently - I actually needed to search for other things and got to play Cruel Ultimatum and Nucklavee and shit.

As for the rotating commanders idea, I dig it and in fact I tend to build with extra maindeck Legendaries just to see how a deck plays with different commanders. Seems good.

[kombatkiwi]

I'm not a fan of house rules.
I can agree that tutors often result in games turning out similarly each time, which gets boring, but I dislike having non-optimised decks, which means that either

a) You pick a commander with a limited colour identity so you can't play many tutors
b) You play cards like Mindlock Orb and build your deck around them so that you have a strategic reason for not playing tutors

It's normally easier to do a) than b), but playing fewer colours limits the number of fun interactions you can create due to the reduced cardpool, so it can be hard to find a balance that's enjoyable.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There's nothing wrong with house rules, just don't expect them to extend to stores or other areas Magic players gather. There is also nothing wrong with setting personal restrictions for deck building.


Nucklavee is baller shit! It should be Creature - Potato Beast though.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's normally easier to do a) than b), but playing fewer colours limits the number of fun interactions you can create due to the reduced cardpool, so it can be hard to find a balance that's enjoyable.

This is not true. I found it extremely fun to build (and even to play) a GW EDH deck. There are what, 4000 possible cards to play alongisde Karametra. I don't find that pool too small, moreover it's nice how the two colors limit the deckbuilding and force/help to play the deck differently. I'm not a fan of the usual 5C Good Stuff decks and the mono/stereocolored decks are challenging to build and really unusual to see in action.
A frined of mine, datanaga on Source, plays a five-colors deck with a money limit, no tutors. It's pretty funny and it's pretty speedy gameplay-wise, as there's far less shuffling and other stuff that hinders from the actual gameplay. Also, it's nice to see the deck without the usual suspects (DT, VT, MT, ET, GT), and the occasional WT is not that hard to bear.

[AngryTroll]

Anyway, I came here to ask, what do you guys think about EDH with a house-ruling of no tutors allowed? Including anything that may involve shuffling in general. I'm not against shuffling (though 100 card decks that are double sleeved do suck to shuffle if you do it every turn), I just have had mostly mediocre experiences with EDH in the past, usually because of power level concerns.

The problem with this is that all of the green ramp falls into the "tutor" category. Green would be much, much worse if it had to play mana rocks like all of the other colors. Kodama's Reach, Cultivate, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Elder, and Krosan Tusker are all pretty good reasons to play green that cost less than $1 each.

Fetchlands are also tutors, but your manabase isn't that much worse if you leave out the good fetchlands, and the comes-into-play-tapped fetchlands might not make it into your deck even without the good fetchlands. Obviously this is less painful if you would only play the on-color fetchlands (Verdant Catacombs but none of the other green or black fetchlands in a Golgari deck, for example).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The problem with this is that all of the green ramp falls into the "tutor" category. Green would be much, much worse if it had to play mana rocks like all of the other colors. Kodama's Reach, Cultivate, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Elder, and Krosan Tusker are all pretty good reasons to play green that cost less than $1 each.

Fetchlands are also tutors, but your manabase isn't that much worse if you leave out the good fetchlands, and the comes-into-play-tapped fetchlands might not make it into your deck even without the good fetchlands. Obviously this is less painful if you would only play the on-color fetchlands (Verdant Catacombs but none of the other green or black fetchlands in a Golgari deck, for example).

Yep, exactly.
On the fetchlands proposal: that's exactly what I do. I dislike off-color fetches (except for Foothills in RUG Delver, those rule) and when in GW, it really helps that we got the best fetch ever, Krosan Verge.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I mean, green would still have the originals, like Wild Growth, Birds of Paradise, and Fertile Ground, but I guess it restricts cool cards like Yavimaya Elder or Sakura-Tribe Elder.

The main point is that I think it would be interesting to have a format where there aren't 3+ ways to draw any card in your deck. This would probably just solidify blue's card drawing as clearly the best strategy, though, so probably isn't want I was looking for.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I mean, green would still have the originals, like Wild Growth, Birds of Paradise, and Fertile Ground, but I guess it restricts cool cards like Yavimaya Elder or Sakura-Tribe Elder.

The main point is that I think it would be interesting to have a format where there aren't 3+ ways to draw any card in your deck. This would probably just solidify blue's card drawing as clearly the best strategy, though, so probably isn't want I was looking for.

I wouldn't compare Kodama's Reach to Demonic Tutor. Imho the green ramp spells are fine (except for the fact that geddon-and-friends are forbidden thus making the land-tutors far more appealing then the manadorks), and they cost quite a lot compared to the "real" tutors.
Fact is that every search/shuffle stuff makes the game less enjoyable and far more longer (imagine the usual 4-men seats with each participant that fetches/tutors/plays Intuition at least once per turn) without nay real action. It's not like the most thrilling experience ever.
Otoh, it's a bout the particular group. Some ppl like broken things, and then they need tutors and such.
ymmv

[Mystical_Jackass]

I've been playing EDH/Highlander or whatever since like 2007 or so, it's been a long time either way. Back then there were no Gods, the planeswalker count was minimal, no Praetors and Titans galore. General damage actually MATTERED back then, since using the Invasion and Planar Dragons and Elder Dragons was fairly common (I'm glad they're repringing more Dragons btw).

The fundamental issue with the format is that ramp is out of hand, and lands are "no touchy". This leads to players having near "unlimited cast" Generals, like Prossh and Wanderer or Child. The Rules either needs to make a limit of like 5-6 recasts then the Commander is gone for good, or they should allow for more definite answers. Tuck was a strong answer to stop players from like... just keep recasting Kaervek over and over, until you eventually die 'cause you can't stop them from continually putting it back into play.

The thing that bothers me is that there's so many players that'll just play Gods, Planeswalkers and broken Praetors or Sphinx, just good stuff galore. I'm someone who likes to run a lot of responses in my deck, the issue is that there's just not enough good responses to deal with decks like that 'cause it's not cost effective to just StP or Capsize permanents, so many of them already create such CA when they hit the field and even if you try to target most players have sac outlets or lands-- which you can't be labeled someone who "goes after lands" or uses bloodmoon to destroy their high markets, miren or diamond valleys or they'll gang up on you and kill you and say "well you shouldn't have Blood Moon'ed".

Long story short, for someone like me who plays moderate powered planeswalkers like Tetsuo Umezawa, Sydri, Zedruu, Reaper King, Ixidor, etc. and plenty of responses to actually "play the board".... ultimately you're going to lose hard to players who simply ignore the board and tunnel all game, just play broken Creatures and Gods all game and win. It happens more times than not, because the power creep of some of these permanents and commanders and lack of good answers. And now we can't tuck Generals away, so I feel like it's one less good answer I can have against borderline broken Generals to compete.

[Aggro_zombies]

I mean, green would still have the originals, like Wild Growth, Birds of Paradise, and Fertile Ground, but I guess it restricts cool cards like Yavimaya Elder or Sakura-Tribe Elder.

The main point is that I think it would be interesting to have a format where there aren't 3+ ways to draw any card in your deck. This would probably just solidify blue's card drawing as clearly the best strategy, though, so probably isn't want I was looking for.

A friend of mine plays Prime Speaker Zegana tribal Merfolk, which sounds kind of derpy until you see him draw 6+ cards off of his general, clone his general for 7+ cards, and then put the original back in the command zone because of the legend rule. It turns out that it's really, really hard to kill people once they've drawn 13+ cards in one turn. Wrathing does nothing because he just untaps and plays the six creatures still in his hand, Mind Twisting does nothing to answer the huge board he has, and it's rare for the other players to be able to do all of that in one turn cycle (and not attempt to do it to each other, if the threat evaluation is poor).

So yeah, I don't think it would work out well. UG is already the best color combination in a "fair" metagame because it can ramp and draw so well.