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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #561

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    At this point, if you're playing the Force version you really should be running Shoals no matter what. The point of Force isn't just to give you more protection against fast combo - it's to help you stop hate cards from hitting the board. Disrupting Shoal gives you that added redundancy so you don't have to play cards like Serum Powder fishing for a Force, and this deck really can't afford to mulligan aggressively. So with that, you're really better off just running Whirlpool Rider because it helps augment Shoals against Rest in Peace, Scavenging Ooze or other two-mana spells that could be troublesome.

    The biggest issue I have with Shoal at the moment is its inability to interact with one-mana hate spells. Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian help against cards like Surgical and Deathrite Shaman, which is obviously nice. But alll we have right now to augment Shoal is Gitaxian Probe, which is fine I guess. But if your goal is to beat Grafdigger's Cage then the only real outcome would be Force and blue card. This is where I feel Chancellor shines, because it stops the deck's worst-case scenarios to start the game and lets you be able to discard or draw counter-magic off the top for added protection. Over time I've seen it become an unsung hero of sorts, because there's no turn more critical to this deck's success than surviving your opponents' first-turn plays aiming to end or control the game before you discard. I wasn't a big fan of it for a while, but that changed the more and more I played it.

    Offering protection in scenarios such as:

    *Turn-one Deathrite Shaman...
    *Turn-one discard spell (Therapy, Thoughtseize, etc.)...
    *Turn-one Cage...
    *Explosive turn-one combo acceleration...

    ...You all get the picture.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 09-07-2016 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #562

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Makes sense but if you run chancellors and you want to bring in 4x fow and 3x shoal and even have to keep in the probes for helping countering cages, 7 is a mighty number to bring in with a combo deck, what do you side out?

    Or when you're facing storm and have 3 additional white Leylines?

  3. #563

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Atherion View Post
    Makes sense but if you run chancellors and you want to bring in 4x fow and 3x shoal and even have to keep in the probes for helping countering cages, 7 is a mighty number to bring in with a combo deck, what do you side out?
    I run three Forces main, so I'd have to know what your entire list looks like. I am also currently only running three Phantasmagorian, something I'm not sure if everyone (or anyone) knew. I've had no problems with it, because the four Chancellors have stunted Deathrite Shaman turn-one from being a factor. Three tends to be a nice number for me at this point, although that can always change.

    Or when you're facing storm and have 3 additional white Leylines?
    This is dependent again on the main-deck. I also run three in the board.

  4. #564

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    yes, I have read that you run 3, I immediately liked the idea :-) my maindeck is on the previous page, but I will probably go +1 chancellor, -1 shell

  5. #565

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Atherion View Post
    yes, I have read that you run 3, I immediately liked the idea :-) my maindeck is on the previous page, but I will probably go +1 chancellor, -1 shell
    One thing to note though: I would never run three Phantasmagorians unless I'm running Chancellor, too. Otherwise, that stays a four-of.

  6. #566

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Would love to see your current list, Hollywood.

    In what metas do you recommend your version vs. SB FoW vs. no FoW versions?

  7. #567

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    My current list:

    [4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
    [4x] Stinkweed Imp
    [4x] Golgari Thug
    [4x] Ichorid
    [4x] Nether Shadow
    [4x] Narcomoeba
    [4x] Bridge from Below
    [4x] Cabal Therapy
    [4x] Dread Return
    [4x] Street Wraith
    [4x] Chancellor of the Annex
    [4x] Prized Amalgam
    [3x] Gitaxian Probe
    [3x] Phantasmagorian
    [3x] Force of Will
    [1x] Shambling Shell
    [1x] Balustrade Spy
    [1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

    //Sideboard
    [3x] Disrupting Shoal
    [3x] Whirlpool Rider
    [3x] Faerie Macabre
    [3x] Leyline of Sanctity
    [2x] Ashen Rider
    [1x] Force of Will

    In metas lower on permanent-based graveyard hate, play the non-Force version with the green sideboard. In areas that are saturated with Rest in Peace and Cages - and you want to play Manaless - run the Force version. You could also do this in a combo-heavy meta, as well.

  8. #568

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    In metas lower on permanent-based graveyard hate, play the non-Force version with the green sideboard. In areas that are saturated with Rest in Peace and Cages - and you want to play Manaless - run the Force version. You could also do this in a combo-heavy meta, as well.
    This is excellent advise. Small thing to add: I've been running Spirit of the Hearth in place of Leyline of Sanctity – Flyer that beats my opponent on top of the hexproof... feels better to me.

  9. #569

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by vieko View Post
    This is excellent advise. Small thing to add: I've been running Spirit of the Hearth in place of Leyline of Sanctity – Flyer that beats my opponent on top of the hexproof... feels better to me.
    Thanks.

    The problem with cards like this is that you need to be able to survive against fast combo long enough to Dread Return it into play. When you're casting Dread Return, you should either be winning or have the game virtually won. Leyline of Sanctity comes down before an opponent has a chance to interact and immediately punishes questionable keeps, while also protecting you immediately from cards that would lock you down or slow you down like Relic, discard, Crypt, etc. Even Iona would be better than this card for what it does, because it's a faster clock, shuts down opposing decks' key colors and is in a vacuum much more powerful.

    I would eschew Spirit for Leyline though; there's really no comparison.

  10. #570
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thanks.

    The problem with cards like this is that you need to be able to survive against fast combo long enough to Dread Return it into play. When you're casting Dread Return, you should either be winning or have the game virtually won. Leyline of Sanctity comes down before an opponent has a chance to interact and immediately punishes questionable keeps, while also protecting you immediately from cards that would lock you down or slow you down like Relic, discard, Crypt, etc. Even Iona would be better than this card for what it does, because it's a faster clock, shuts down opposing decks' key colors and is in a vacuum much more powerful.

    I would eschew Spirit for Leyline though; there's really no comparison.
    Agreed in full. The reason to run Leyline is because you're conceding the fact that you will likely lose to [insert deck you bring it in for] before you get going yourself. Iona is also the superior DR target.

    @Hollywood: You don't feel low on dredge pieces (13)?

  11. #571
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yup, why bother with Spirit of the Heart when you can just DR Spy/Whirlpool guy and win that turn?
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  12. #572

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    7- Rollan Julien - DREDGE - Bom Paris Legacy

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    2 Nether Shadow
    2 Whirlpool Rider
    3 Prized Amalgam
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Force of Will
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    SB: 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    SB: 2 Unmask
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
    SB: 3 Contagion

  13. #573
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Congrats!
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  14. #574
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Warden View Post
    You don't feel low on dredge pieces (13)?
    I believe it is wrong to consider all the cards with the keyword "dredge" written on them together. Writing 13 like that, and knowing you absolutely need one in your opener, it seems that running 14 or 15 is miles better.
    But there is a huge gap between shell and thug, which is already not that good. So in Hollywood's list it is the 12 4+ dredgers and 1 shell here. In Julien's list is 12 the 12 4+ dredgers without any shell.

  15. #575

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Shambling Shell is more important than the 14+ dredger for mulligans, it's a redundant dredger for Phantasmagorian to protect you vs Deathrite Shaman. 12 Dredgers makes really little sense, there's nothing that important you need to add to sacrifice redundacy for it.

  16. #576
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Shambling Shell is more important than the 14+ dredger for mulligans, it's a redundant dredger for Phantasmagorian to protect you vs Deathrite Shaman. 12 Dredgers makes really little sense, there's nothing that important you need to add to sacrifice redundacy for it.
    I disagree that it is actually redundancy. I never saw "dredge 4-6" written on it.
    Going on with only shell remaining (otherwise it is irrelevant) against an active DRS is not a winning strategy. The very idea that shell is more beneficial against DRS than CotA is a bit strange, especially as it is good vs DRS only in the cases were: i) you have phantasmagorian and exactly one real dredger (+shell); ii) in your first dredge 3 you find 2 dredgers or a dredger and a phantasmagorian; iii) you do not have a Street wraith.
    The probability to have these three and a DRS on the other side is not that high. And even with all of that going, you're still in an uphill battle.

    I would argue that the playsets of FoW and CotA win more games than shambling shell will ever do.

  17. #577

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It doesn't say Dredge 4 thru' 6 on it, it says don't mullugian to 6 on it.

    Talking about cards as if they are mutually exclusive is pointless, the deck has flex slots for either Force of Will, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex or Gitaxian Probe, you can play whatever you like and side however you see fit. The odds of seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 12 Dredgers and seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 16 Dredgers isn't insigificant, just like the odds of seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 12 Dredgers and seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 14+ Dredgers isn't insigificant either. Comulative consistency in a tournament setting matters far more than people think it does or would have themselves believe.

    I think there's a serious misconception about what cards do and don't contribute to the deck's game 1 win% in this thread and cutting Shambling Shell in Dredge is the equivalent of cutting lands in any other deck. Yes, cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow and Dread Return are the weakest cards in the deck and can be reduced in number, but when you replace them for superflous disruption game 1 or you replace them with Gitaxian Probe and fail to track the number of games it just gets countered and reduces your hand size or isn't a creature to recur Nether Shadow with you'll fail to see why business is just better than X.

    I like Force of Will just as much as the next guy, but it's worse than other disruption options game 1 and the blue Dredge Return targets often make me think the deck might be fooling itself with counters and combo kills when it should just be running Chancellors of the Annex in the combo creature slots, Unmask in the MD and a SB designed to slow faster decks and resign itself to hate to just grind wins thru' pure consistency.

    Cut whatever you like, but the odds of you comming back to Shambling Shell are pretty likely if the history of this thread holds true.

    Edit: The green SB has never worked out, it is such a desperate attempt at stopping something compared to just gaining EV vs format predators like Storm.

  18. #578
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    It doesn't say Dredge 4 thru' 6 on it, it says don't mullugian to 6 on it.

    Talking about cards as if they are mutually exclusive is pointless, the deck has flex slots for either Force of Will, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex or Gitaxian Probe, you can play whatever you like and side however you see fit. The odds of seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 12 Dredgers and seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 16 Dredgers isn't insigificant, just like the odds of seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 12 Dredgers and seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 14+ Dredgers isn't insigificant either. Comulative consistency in a tournament setting matters far more than people think it does or would have themselves believe.

    I think there's a serious misconception about what cards do and don't contribute to the deck's game 1 win% in this thread and cutting Shambling Shell in Dredge is the equivalent of cutting lands in any other deck. Yes, cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow and Dread Return are the weakest cards in the deck and can be reduced in number, but when you replace them for superflous disruption game 1 or you replace them with Gitaxian Probe and fail to track the number of games it just gets countered and reduces your hand size or isn't a creature to recur Nether Shadow with you'll fail to see why business is just better than X.

    I like Force of Will just as much as the next guy, but it's worse than other disruption options game 1 and the blue Dredge Return targets often make me think the deck might be fooling itself with counters and combo kills when it should just be running Chancellors of the Annex in the combo creature slots, Unmask in the MD and a SB designed to slow faster decks and resign itself to hate to just grind wins thru' pure consistency.

    Cut whatever you like, but the odds of you comming back to Shambling Shell are pretty likely if the history of this thread holds true.

    Edit: The green SB has never worked out, it is such a desperate attempt at stopping something compared to just gaining EV vs format predators like Storm.
    Thank you. I asked the initial question. Reading answers had me feeling stupid until reading this (I mean I'm still dumb, but I didn't know if I missed some recent tech or discoveries).

  19. #579

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Yup, why bother with Spirit of the Heart when you can just DR Spy/Whirlpool guy and win that turn?
    When you put it like this Echelon, it doesn't make much sense does it? :)

  20. #580
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by vieko View Post
    When you put it like this Echelon, it doesn't make much sense does it? :)
    I have trouble telling if you're being sarcastic or not, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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