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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #981
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Noloam_ View Post
    what do you guys think of?

    Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, Myojin of Infinite Rage. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell
    So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

    No. Horrible, horrible plan.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

    No. Horrible, horrible plan.
    when the counter the shoal they dont have the counter for the DR right? if they dont have the counter, you have a blow out. The cards are not useless in your graveyard, the red creatures are extra creatures to trigger nether shadow. Therapy and probe were not feeding the ichorid either, so that is a false comparison.

    also having a blow out before they are able to cast rip/containment priest seems pretty sweet to me
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  3. #983
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'd rather bank on having CT in my GY to clear counters than on having 2 specific cards in my hand.

    As for the blowout before RiP/Containment Priest - 10 damage is far from lethal and therefor irrelevant if you're dead in the water afterwards.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Noloam_ View Post
    what do you guys think of?

    Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, reaper king. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell
    Cutting Therapies...

    Easily the worst advice in this thread.
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  5. #985

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

    This would do it most of the time. But I was thinking of ways to win around cards like Glacial Chasm. Where it severely limits the level of damage based interaction.

    I have played matches against cards like Platinum Emperion and it can be worked around with enough damage triggers to kill the 8/8. But the Chasm stands in the way of any Damage based win.

    Most decks that run it, I find that I wouldn't want to sideboard the hate against it granted its usually a one of.


    In my SB Ashen Rider and Realm Razer deal with it fine but its situational to set up the optimal condition to get it out on board without fully combo'ing out with Spy using more copies of DR to get the job done.


    It's something I'm going to test further seeing as the Alt-Win Con with Lab Man and Azami, Lady of Scrolls ups the Blue card count up a tad bit percentage wise making it less likely to wiff with hands with a Force of Will.


    I don't expect to win with it often but its a trick I can have in the main board in case I run this specific problem and don't sideboard for it.

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    what do you guys think of hollow one? since it comboes with phantosmogorian. or sidecases like: with multiple streets wraight or if you run multiple gigapedes, or therapy yourself for perhaps multiples, Or discard faerie macabre (which i run main)
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Again dead in the GY.

    It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Again dead in the GY.

    It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.
    How is chancellor of the annex not almost just as dead in the graveyard?

    how is phantasomogorian worse then bazaar for the hollow one effect? if even works from the graveyard if you did not have it in your opener. which makes it even easier
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s) (and provides additional dredges to boot), Phantasmagorian just discards cards... Bazaar >> Phantasmagorian.

    A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s), Phantasmagorian just discards cards...

    A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.

    yes but you still need to have it in your opener. You do not need phantasmogorian in your opener. all the sidecases together also make it reasonable.

    that only goes for the sidecase where you dont have any better dread return targets. a chancellor vs almost all non storm matches is still very poor
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

    As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

    As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.

    im not sure why that comparison is relevant to the discussion

    yeah 100% of the time. but that still makes it a terrible DR target. the chance that chancellor steal any game by fighting graveyard hate post board is almost 0, since you are almost always on the draw
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.
    Yeah thats my whole point. you cant do anything before they get to play a land. so the can still crypt, cage you all day. i dont see how chancellor is helping here
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.
    i prefer a more aggressive aggro game 1 and bring in the complete nature claim/r.silence package side, because i think losing to random leylines is just stupid. Thats better than a hail mary in my opinion



    phantasmogorian into hollow one also goes through a containment priest / cage btw
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

    It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

    It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.

    the decks that play leyline 99% of the time dont play counters. aggro loam and eldrazi

    if a counter spell is your counter argument for everything, then nobody can ever change your mind
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Basic math is my main argument.

    If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

    If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

    A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Basic math is my main argument.

    If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

    If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

    A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.
    i just told you 99% of the leyline decks dont play blue. so it does work

    yes that is also was my math. about 50% chance. Better than a 100% scoop rate vs decks that mull to leyline. you cant outspeed a leyline, no matter how high your hopes are

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