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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1181
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That's it. I'm not putting together any more new lists until this set is finished getting spoiled

  2. #1182

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    you're trying this Final ?

    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Ichorid
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Creeping Chill
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

  3. #1183

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by P-E View Post
    you're trying this Final ?

    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Ichorid
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Creeping Chill
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    That's the list I'm gold fishing to calculate the average time to kill for Hogaak, I plan on play tesing -4 Creeping Chill for +4 Unmask vs aggro-control decks next since Unmask both clears the path for and accelerates into Hogaak (you can Unmask yourself for +2 cards to Delve).

  4. #1184

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    unmask is good even g2 when you'll be on the play ^^

    not sure if hogaark and chill will work very well together as you have to remove chill but why not

  5. #1185

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by P-E View Post
    unmask is good even g2 when you'll be on the play ^^

    not sure if hogaark and chill will work very well together as you have to remove chill but why not
    You don't have to remove Chill, you may remove Chill, keep that in mind when you're dredging as the 3 damage isn't always worth the 1 delve.

  6. #1186

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    For some reason, not having a combo finish seems wrong. This is a no-lands version of mana dredge in some effect, but slower. I think the grind + win out of nowhere combo is what makes this deck extra scary. I do like the quad list just posted, BUT I don't feel like leaving home without a flayer or giant. I think it's reasonable to cut the Whirlpool, or Spy, but why leave the "I-win" card at home with Giant or Flayer?

    Where is the T2 kill/lethal I am horribly missing?

  7. #1187

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    More often CC will do it's job than Unmask; you don't need to test that to see if it works. This deck still wants to dredge more than rely on nontraditional, explosive opening hands. I like sticking to the philosophy of the deck: play as non- interactive as possible.

    I like the new angles Hagokk provides: since you cast it using Convoke and Delve, it can be played through Trinisphere. Since it's a creature, Thalia is happy about it (or not, actually ).

  8. #1188

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    For some reason, not having a combo finish seems wrong. This is a no-lands version of mana dredge in some effect, but slower. I think the grind + win out of nowhere combo is what makes this deck extra scary. I do like the quad list just posted, BUT I don't feel like leaving home without a flayer or giant. I think it's reasonable to cut the Whirlpool, or Spy, but why leave the "I-win" card at home with Giant or Flayer?

    Where is the T2 kill/lethal I am horribly missing?
    The combo kill isn't for the "I win" in and of itself, but for the added reach and TTK. If I get an 8/8 trample and Lightning Bolts that let me kill on the same turn, then it's more or less the same but Hogaak is a much less conditional to grind thru' Tormod's Crypt and its ilk. A card that adds speed and redundancy is a no brainer, so Hogaak is a 4x no questions ask. The combo only adds speed and Ichorid food, and now that spells are Hogaak food Creeping Chill is just a less conditional speed card than the combo. The reach aspect is what was never there before the combo kill, all you could ever do was go wide. With Trample/Bolts that changes, and there might be some other old cards like Chancellor of the Forge worth looking at for the added effects of the free goblin speeding the deck up and the Dread Return target letting you go super wide for the kill.

    The set has Delve, Convoke, Dredge and Pitch effects with 60 cards to go, so until Christmas ends we might get another present that forces us to rethink the all redundancy approach.

  9. #1189

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    This card is like holy fucking shit good, no way you play less than 4.
    Have you been able to get Hagokk out by t2 at all? Both Hag and Prize are very similarly bad for relying on Narc and Ich to do the heavy lifting. At least Hag can hit the field the turn it's dredged unlike Ich or Prize. Prize is just so bad; in a perfect world Hag replaces Prize and we get another body that recurs, dredges AND is black and green.

  10. #1190

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    Have you been able to get Hagokk out by t2 at all? Both Hag and Prize are very similarly bad for relying on Narc and Ich to do the heavy lifting. At least Hag can hit the field the turn it's dredged unlike Ich or Prize. Prize is just so bad; in a perfect world Hag replaces Prize and we get another body that recurs, dredges AND is black and green.
    Nope, Hag is a T3 card for a T4 kill at best, most of the time T2 is one recurring creature to proc Prized Amalgram and then the recurring creature and Prized Amalgram tap to Convoke out Hogaak on T3 and you push your attack on T4. The deck feels about a turn slower with Hogaak, but I don't think that makes the deck worse necessarily as what it loses in speed it makes up for in resiliency. Incidentally Hogaak makes Dread Return into the combo a more consistent T3 play as well if that's your bag, it's not necessarily Hogaak or combo I'm just trying to see if there's any more redundancy worth playing over the combo that lets you play thru' Crypt wipes or speeds the deck up in any way (Dryad's Arbor and Basking Rootwalla are a possible way to turbo out Hogaak on T2 I think).

    Realistically, I think the archetype is a T4 deck.

  11. #1191
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    After testing Haggok is a wonderful upgrade for the deck, 4 auto include every day !
    Balustrade spy isn’t necessary, and now flayer of the hatebound is better than lotleth giant (due to haggok). I prefer unmask than creeping chill because of the metagame and the sinergy with haggok. I still think as everyone about the SB. My actual testing list:


    4 Ichorid
    4 Unmask
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Golgari Thug
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Prized Amalgam

  12. #1192

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I must be on a different wavelength because I love the combo finish and Prized Amalgam, and haven't been bowled over by Hogaak in testing.

  13. #1193

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    I must be on a different wavelength because I love the combo finish and Prized Amalgam, and haven't been bowled over by Hogaak in testing.
    I have no idea what there is not to like about Amalgam, he's business in a deck that wants as much business as possible. Hogaak is straight good, there's no reason to not play him even if he's only another Ichorid esque creature.

    @Thread; people need to be smacked for cutting Shambling Shells, you either play 4 for Force of Vigor or pack it in to Leyline of the Void.

  14. #1194

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I should have given more context: Prize is bad compared to what Narc and Ichorid do. Prize is decent in the deck that's why I still play it.

  15. #1195
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm not sold on Hogaak yet tbh

    It sucks vs. Karakas
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  16. #1196

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I'm not sold on Hogaak yet tbh

    It sucks vs. Karakas
    I'm on Hogaak and the combo kill at the moment, I think in a vacuum you play Hogaak no matter what for the faster gold fish - if it's bad vs any particular deck, then you just ignore him and feed him to Ichorid; there's nothing lost as Gigapede or Creeping Chill aren't particularly great either in that match up. There's also a soft disruption element to the card, a lot of people hold on to a Swords to Plowshares for Hogaak instead of exiling an Ichorid; even the threat of the card makes people play sub-optimally where they wouldn't have before.

  17. #1197
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @Final Fortune: Can you post your 75?
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  18. #1198

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @Final Fortune: Can you post your 75?
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    2 Lotleth Giant

    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 Contagion
    3 Sickening Shoal.

  19. #1199

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    2 Lotleth Giant

    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 Contagion
    3 Sickening Shoal.
    I like this a lot. I'm wondering why the split of 2 Spy/2 Giant, as recurring the Spy is an I win moment, so 3/1 seems more adventageous. But that's quibbling. My real question is about the SB, 7 spots dedicated to creature removal. What are you playing against that it's so weighted that way? I was expecting 4 removal, and 3 something else utility, either Ashen Rider or Chancellor. (Running Spy, no miser's Prog?)

    I think it's great that Creeping Chill is (potentially) fighting for space. I miss probe just because, but I am pleased that there have been subsequent printings to add to the deck.

  20. #1200

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    I like this a lot. I'm wondering why the split of 2 Spy/2 Giant, as recurring the Spy is an I win moment, so 3/1 seems more adventageous. But that's quibbling. My real question is about the SB, 7 spots dedicated to creature removal. What are you playing against that it's so weighted that way? I was expecting 4 removal, and 3 something else utility, either Ashen Rider or Chancellor. (Running Spy, no miser's Prog?)

    I think it's great that Creeping Chill is (potentially) fighting for space. I miss probe just because, but I am pleased that there have been subsequent printings to add to the deck.
    I see a lot of D&T, and I don't think the utility stuff like Ashen Rider or Chancellor of the Annex is worth cutting business for (Chancellor's days are behind him now that Deathrite Shaman is gone). The 2/2 split is because Tormod's Crypt happens, removing your only copy of Giant means every copy of Spy is worthless anyway, and Giant being black means I can remove it to Ichorid myself.

    Progenitus is worthless, why would I want a card that is useless for Ichorid, Nether Shadow and Hogaak in my deck? High Tide?

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